Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/2/2006 6:05:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 8:50:53 AM EDT by thisisagenericname]
Frist off I want to mention that the malfunction was fixed within ten seconds of it's occurance and I fired the rest of the mag without any problems. The photos are a recreation.

I was shooting a few mags out in live fire drills and I had a very very strange malfunction occur.

A spent round got caught in front of the chargeing handle so when the bolt went back it got jammed with the open part of the round over the gas tube and prevented the bolt from getting another round or going back far enough to in gauge the bolt catch. Anyone know what caused this? Anyone know how to prevent it from happening again?

(Yes, the pics are out of focus, sorry)









Any help would be greatly appreciated.


~Ethan
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 6:13:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 6:15:36 PM EDT by gotm4]
Quit shooting Wolf steel cased ammo.

If this happens with brass cased ammo:

Get a stronger extractor spring (or clean your extractor well). Wolff makes a nice really cheap extra power M4 extractor spring or you could use a Crane O-ring or D-fender on you present extractor. You should also upgrade your ejector spring to a chrome silicone one and if you're running a carbine stock use a H buffer or heavier. And run stronger mag springs (Wolff or ISMI) with Magpul followers if you aren't using HK mags.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:07:07 PM EDT
Haha oh man. Did it do anything to the gas tube?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:38:34 PM EDT
Thanks for you advice, gotm4, I will look into some of those (however I can't stop shooting wolf, brass is too expensive).

M4A1OwnsYou, no, no damage was sustained to the gas tube. Rifle still functions perfectly.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:17:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:39:33 PM EDT
Is the bolt and chamber area/lugs all greased up??

what is that in there?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:53:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:30:20 AM EDT by gotm4]
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were shown broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo. This ammo had left a lot of laquer/polymer in the chamber which the users who couldn't or didn't clean out. This caused the bolt to not close completely (but enough to turn, lock and fire) and the end result was broken cam pins and or broken bolts.

Call down to the armory at Blackwater and ask for Mike, Eric or Charlie steel cased ammo. IM me if you need the number. They train a lot of people there and see just about all problems with ARs so I hold their advice in high regard. YMMV.

OTOH.
I shot some of the Serbian made brassed case Wolf "Precision ammo" and it is fine and ran well in my 11.5" SBR using a Enidine buffer (so I don't see how it's underpowered as some are saying). Ammoman is selling it for $200/1K

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:26:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:28:08 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By gotm4:
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were showed broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo. This ammo had left a lot of laquer/polymer in the chamber which the users who couldn't or didn't clean out. This caused the bolt to not close completely (but enough to turn, lock and fire) and the end result was broken cam pins and or broken bolts.

Call down to the armory at Blackwater and ask for Mike, Eric or Charlie steel cased ammo. IM me if you need the number. They train a lot of people there and see just about all problems with ARs so I hold their advice in high regard. YMMV.

OTOH.
I shot some of the Serbian made brassed case Wolf "Precision ammo" and it is fine and ran well in my 11.5" SBR using a Enidine buffer (so I don't see how it's underpowered as some are saying). Ammoman is selling it for $200/1K




Doesn't Blackwater use mainly Bushmaster rifles in their training facility or armory?
Bushmaster APPROVES the use of Wolf steel-cased ammo through their barrels and rifles. You can break the extractor lips on brass cased ammo too. All it means when your extractor breaks is that it was weak in the first place.
Broken bolt lugs and cam pins have nothing to do with the use of soft steel cased ammo. Think about it.

The lacquer/polymer is not a problem unless you are using a match-grade/BS tight chamber, and your Wolf ammo has neck sealant. Wolf has stopped using neck sealant for at least 4 years IIRC, in the .223 Remington cartridges. Wolf ammo is now all polymer coated steel cased w/o neck sealant. Wolf Gold is overpriced brass stuff that I have no interest in because of its price.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:38:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were shown broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo.




Doesn't Blackwater use mainly Bushmaster rifles in their training facility or armory?
Bushmaster APPROVES the use of Wolf steel-cased ammo through their barrels and rifles. You can break the extractor lips on brass cased ammo too. All it means when your extractor breaks is that it was weak in the first place.
Broken bolt lugs and cam pins have nothing to do with the use of soft steel cased ammo. Think about it.

The lacquer/polymer is not a problem unless you are using a match-grade/BS tight chamber, and your Wolf ammo has neck sealant. Wolf has stopped using neck sealant for at least 4 years IIRC.



Yes Blackwater uses Bushmaster and it was a Bushmaster armorers course that I took there last week. Blackwater doesn't make you use a Bushmaster AR for their armorers or shooting courses and as I said they (Blackwater) recommend against steel cased ammo of all makes regardless of neck sealant. The broken bolts and cam pins came out of student (in other works self supplied) rifles not their rental Bushys. They train between 500-1000 people per week so I imagine they have some idea of what works and what doesn't, YMMV.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:38:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thisisagenericname:
Frist off I want to mention that the malfunction was fixed within ten seconds of it's occurance and I fired the rest of the clip magazine without any problems. The photos are a recreation.



Fix your post for ya.......

Mike
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:59:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:01:23 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were shown broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo.




Doesn't Blackwater use mainly Bushmaster rifles in their training facility or armory?
Bushmaster APPROVES the use of Wolf steel-cased ammo through their barrels and rifles. You can break the extractor lips on brass cased ammo too. All it means when your extractor breaks is that it was weak in the first place.
Broken bolt lugs and cam pins have nothing to do with the use of soft steel cased ammo. Think about it.

The lacquer/polymer is not a problem unless you are using a match-grade/BS tight chamber, and your Wolf ammo has neck sealant. Wolf has stopped using neck sealant for at least 4 years IIRC.



Yes Blackwater uses Bushmaster and it was a Bushmaster armorers course that I took there last week. Blackwater doesn't make you use a Bushmaster AR for their armorers or shooting courses and as I said they (Blackwater) recommend against steel cased ammo of all makes regardless of neck sealant. The broken bolts and cam pins came out of student (in other works self supplied) rifles not their rental Bushys. They train between 500-1000 people per week so I imagine they have some idea of what works and what doesn't, YMMV.



Ah, so the problem is with the students' rifles and not Bushmasters. Broken bolt lugs and cam pins do not have any direct correlation with the use of steel cased ammo. Wolf, if anything, is underpowered when compared to 5.56 NATO loads or 223 Remington.

I've heard the professional crowd recommend against using Wolf ammo. They also usually bring up the "using 87 octane in a Mercedes Benz" argument which is an invalid comparison. If the manufacturer of the rifles that Blackwater issues to its operatives around the world says its fine to use Wolf, then it is fine to use Wolf. I'm sure Bushmaster sells and tests plenty of weapons and knows what they are talking about.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:24:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
If the manufacturer of the rifles that Blackwater issues to its operatives around the world says its fine to use Wolf, then it is fine to use Wolf. I'm sure Bushmaster sells and tests plenty of weapons and knows what they are talking about.



Bushmaster is in business to make money.

I wonder why it is that every new Bushy rifle that I see (about 20 a month) has brass marks on the brass deflector and not grey polymer nor laquer.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:08:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 5:12:44 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
If the manufacturer of the rifles that Blackwater issues to its operatives around the world says its fine to use Wolf, then it is fine to use Wolf. I'm sure Bushmaster sells and tests plenty of weapons and knows what they are talking about.



Bushmaster is in business to make money.

I wonder why it is that every new Bushy rifle that I see (about 20 a month) has brass marks on the brass deflector and not grey polymer nor laquer.



Steel doesn't make those marks.

Bushmaster Ammo Advisory

Bushmaster writes:

DO NOT USE: CCI Blazer 9mm Aluminum Cased Ammunition in blowback operation guns (i.e. our 9mm Carbine and Pistol)
DO NOT USE: Olympic 9mm Ammunition - manufactured in Greece
DO NOT USE: American Brand 9mm Ammunition

BUSHMASTER PERSONNEL HAVE USED THE FOLLOWING AMMUNITIONS in various calibers for testing
at the factory, and found they will cycle without malfunction and have not caused damage or problems:
PMC / SPEER / REMINGTON / WINCHESTER / WOLF / SELLIER & BELLOT
AMERICAN EAGLE (Federal Manufactured) / M.E.N. (German Manufacture)



Based on their recommendations, I'd say they know what they're talking about and aren't just out to make money like typical vendors (except for the CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo, plenty of people use them in Glocks w/o any problems but I can't say I've tried it in a carbine). The ones talking out of their ass usually trash talk Wolf and recommend you plink with Black Hills brass cased ammo because you shouldn't use "87 octane in a Mercedes Benz". I hear crap like this all the time. "Using wolf will VOID the warranty, blah blah blah".
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:03:07 AM EDT
VA-gunnut, I checked the extractor before and after I cleaned the rifle, works fine.

Boog, the bolt and chamber area are dirty, the rifle was not yet cleaned when I took the pictures.

gotm4, this is the frist time I've ever had any problems with my rifle or Wolf, out of several thousand rounds, it's not enough to make me pay $70-$90 more per thousand rounds. As much as I hate Wolf my pocketbook won't allow anything else.

mr_wilson, sorry about the "clip" in there, I didn't mean to put that in, it was the frist thing that came to mind though, I can't believe I didn't catch that in my 20 proof-reads... But it's been fixed.

Thanks for your advice, guys.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:17:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:02:41 PM EDT
Oh, heh, Yea. I meant Ejector, but I checked them both, and they both work fine. I'll go shooting again tomorrow or the next day and see if it happens again. It seems my proof reading does absolutely no good.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:59:28 AM EDT
SPORTS
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:02:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:48:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 12:50:24 AM EDT by gotm4]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:


This is simply physically impossible, the firing pin cannot reach the primer until the bolt is fully locked into battery.




A bolt closes normally by closing and locks before the hammer can reach the firing pin. This is common knowledge.

If it gets dirty enough the bolt may close & turn and lock but is .003" shy of full it being fullly locked so that the lugs aren't fully supported but the firing pin can be hit by the hammer, what do you think will happen? When that happens something has to give when it fires. This usually ends up being the cam pins or bolt lugs. YMMV. As I said IM for the armory number for Blackwater and ask them, they have documented proof of trouble will steel cased ammo.

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:26:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:45:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gotm4:
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were shown broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo. This ammo had left a lot of laquer/polymer in the chamber which the users who couldn't or didn't clean out. This caused the bolt to not close completely (but enough to turn, lock and fire) and the end result was broken cam pins and or broken bolts.

Call down to the armory at Blackwater and ask for Mike, Eric or Charlie steel cased ammo. IM me if you need the number. They train a lot of people there and see just about all problems with ARs so I hold their advice in high regard. YMMV.

OTOH.
I shot some of the Serbian made brassed case Wolf "Precision ammo" and it is fine and ran well in my 11.5" SBR using a Enidine buffer (so I don't see how it's underpowered as some are saying). Ammoman is selling it for $200/1K



As far as solving your problem, the advise given by gotm4 should help. A Stronger extractor spring & a D-Fender will usually solve alot of AR related problems.

As for the broken bolts, Probably just more cheap, not properly Mfg.d & inspected (Not Magnetic Particle inspected, Bolts Not shot peened ) Bolts/Carriers/Cam pins in use.
Use search function & Check the Archive for broken bolts & you will see what I mean.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:57:34 PM EDT
Top Top