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Posted: 4/2/2006 6:05:09 PM EDT
Frist off I want to mention that the malfunction was fixed within ten seconds of it's occurance and I fired the rest of the mag without any problems. The photos are a recreation.
I was shooting a few mags out in live fire drills and I had a very very strange malfunction occur. A spent round got caught in front of the chargeing handle so when the bolt went back it got jammed with the open part of the round over the gas tube and prevented the bolt from getting another round or going back far enough to in gauge the bolt catch. Anyone know what caused this? Anyone know how to prevent it from happening again? (Yes, the pics are out of focus, sorry)     Any help would be greatly appreciated. ~Ethan |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 6:13:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quit shooting Wolf steel cased ammo.
If this happens with brass cased ammo: Get a stronger extractor spring (or clean your extractor well). Wolff makes a nice really cheap extra power M4 extractor spring or you could use a Crane O-ring or D-fender on you present extractor. You should also upgrade your ejector spring to a chrome silicone one and if you're running a carbine stock use a H buffer or heavier. And run stronger mag springs (Wolff or ISMI) with Magpul followers if you aren't using HK mags. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 7:07:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Haha oh man. Did it do anything to the gas tube?
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Posted: 4/2/2006 7:38:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for you advice, gotm4, I will look into some of those (however I can't stop shooting wolf, brass is too expensive).
M4A1OwnsYou, no, no damage was sustained to the gas tube. Rifle still functions perfectly. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 8:17:40 PM EDT
[#4]
I've seen this happen with brass case ammo too. Check your ejector to see if it is moving freely or not. It's possible that some crud has gummed up the works. Now that I think about it. I've seen this problem with brass case ammo more than Wolf. I've noticed little flakes of brass down in the ejector area.
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Posted: 4/2/2006 8:39:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Is the bolt and chamber area/lugs all greased up??
what is that in there? |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 12:53:24 AM EDT
[#6]
The reason I said to stop shooting steel cased Wolf was that at the Blackwater/Bushmaster armorers course last week we were shown broken bolts with lugs broken off as well as broken cams pins. These came out of student rifles that had shot a lot of steel cased ammo. This ammo had left a lot of laquer/polymer in the chamber which the users who couldn't or didn't clean out. This caused the bolt to not close completely (but enough to turn, lock and fire) and the end result was broken cam pins and or broken bolts.
Call down to the armory at Blackwater and ask for Mike, Eric or Charlie steel cased ammo. IM me if you need the number. They train a lot of people there and see just about all problems with ARs so I hold their advice in high regard. YMMV. OTOH. I shot some of the Serbian made brassed case Wolf "Precision ammo" and it is fine and ran well in my 11.5" SBR using a Enidine buffer (so I don't see how it's underpowered as some are saying). Ammoman is selling it for $200/1K |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:26:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Doesn't Blackwater use mainly Bushmaster rifles in their training facility or armory? Bushmaster APPROVES the use of Wolf steel-cased ammo through their barrels and rifles. You can break the extractor lips on brass cased ammo too. All it means when your extractor breaks is that it was weak in the first place. Broken bolt lugs and cam pins have nothing to do with the use of soft steel cased ammo. Think about it. The lacquer/polymer is not a problem unless you are using a match-grade/BS tight chamber, and your Wolf ammo has neck sealant. Wolf has stopped using neck sealant for at least 4 years IIRC, in the .223 Remington cartridges. Wolf ammo is now all polymer coated steel cased w/o neck sealant. Wolf Gold is overpriced brass stuff that I have no interest in because of its price. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:38:09 AM EDT
[#8]
Yes Blackwater uses Bushmaster and it was a Bushmaster armorers course that I took there last week. Blackwater doesn't make you use a Bushmaster AR for their armorers or shooting courses and as I said they (Blackwater) recommend against steel cased ammo of all makes regardless of neck sealant. The broken bolts and cam pins came out of student (in other works self supplied) rifles not their rental Bushys. They train between 500-1000 people per week so I imagine they have some idea of what works and what doesn't, YMMV. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:38:29 AM EDT
[#9]
Fix your post for ya.......  Mike 
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:59:34 AM EDT
[#10]
Ah, so the problem is with the students' rifles and not Bushmasters. Broken bolt lugs and cam pins do not have any direct correlation with the use of steel cased ammo. Wolf, if anything, is underpowered when compared to 5.56 NATO loads or 223 Remington. I've heard the professional crowd recommend against using Wolf ammo. They also usually bring up the "using 87 octane in a Mercedes Benz" argument which is an invalid comparison. If the manufacturer of the rifles that Blackwater issues to its operatives around the world says its fine to use Wolf, then it is fine to use Wolf. I'm sure Bushmaster sells and tests plenty of weapons and knows what they are talking about. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 4:24:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Bushmaster is in business to make money. I wonder why it is that every new Bushy rifle that I see (about 20 a month) has brass marks on the brass deflector and not grey polymer nor laquer. 
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Posted: 4/3/2006 5:08:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Steel doesn't make those marks. Bushmaster Ammo Advisory Bushmaster writes:
Based on their recommendations, I'd say they know what they're talking about and aren't just out to make money like typical vendors (except for the CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo, plenty of people use them in Glocks w/o any problems but I can't say I've tried it in a carbine). The ones talking out of their ass usually trash talk Wolf and recommend you plink with Black Hills brass cased ammo because you shouldn't use "87 octane in a Mercedes Benz". I hear crap like this all the time. "Using wolf will VOID the warranty, blah blah blah". |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 9:03:07 AM EDT
[#13]
VA-gunnut, I checked the extractor before and after I cleaned the rifle, works fine.
Boog, the bolt and chamber area are dirty, the rifle was not yet cleaned when I took the pictures. gotm4, this is the frist time I've ever had any problems with my rifle or Wolf, out of several thousand rounds, it's not enough to make me pay $70-$90 more per thousand rounds. As much as I hate Wolf my pocketbook won't allow anything else. mr_wilson, sorry about the "clip" in there, I didn't mean to put that in, it was the frist thing that came to mind though, I can't believe I didn't catch that in my 20 proof-reads... But it's been fixed. Thanks for your advice, guys. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:17:57 PM EDT
[#14]
OK, you checked the extractor, what about the ejector?
Oh, and I've shot thousands of rounds with Wolf and never had a problem that is worth mentioning. I did get a broken bolt one time, but I was shooting XM193 when it happened. 
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Posted: 4/3/2006 8:02:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Oh, heh, Yea. I meant Ejector, but I checked them both, and they both work fine. I'll go shooting again tomorrow or the next day and see if it happens again. It seems my proof reading does absolutely no good.
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:59:28 AM EDT
[#16]
SPORTS
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Posted: 4/4/2006 7:02:16 PM EDT
[#17]
This is simply physically impossible, the firing pin cannot reach the primer until the bolt is fully locked into battery. Not only must the bolt be cammed over into the fully locked position, the approximate 1/4 inch opening delay free travel must be completely taken up after the bolt is rotated into the fully locked position before the firing pin can reach the primer. There is simply no mechanical way short of the tip being broken and stuck into the bolt face or the cam pin missing that the firing pin can reach the primer without being completely in battery. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 12:48:08 AM EDT
[#18]
A bolt closes normally by closing and locks before the hammer can reach the firing pin. This is common knowledge. If it gets dirty enough the bolt may close & turn and lock but is .003" shy of full it being fullly locked so that the lugs aren't fully supported but the firing pin can be hit by the hammer, what do you think will happen? When that happens something has to give when it fires. This usually ends up being the cam pins or bolt lugs. YMMV. As I said IM for the armory number for Blackwater and ask them, they have documented proof of trouble will steel cased ammo. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 4:26:06 AM EDT
[#19]
I am sorry, what you are describing is not physically possible. It is no different than the bolt failing to lock on a slightly oversize reload. The carrier cannot go fully forward unless the bolt is completely in battery. If the bolt failed to fully lock, it would hold the carrier back. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 4:45:02 AM EDT
[#20]
As far as solving your problem, the advise given by gotm4 should help. A Stronger extractor spring & a D-Fender will usually solve alot of AR related problems. As for the broken bolts, Probably just more cheap, not properly Mfg.d & inspected (Not Magnetic Particle inspected, Bolts Not shot peened ) Bolts/Carriers/Cam pins in use. Use search function & Check the Archive for broken bolts & you will see what I mean. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 12:57:34 PM EDT
[#21]
In regards to thisisagenericname jam, ever think that it may just have been a fluke and the Gods felt it was a good time for you to practice your clearing skills.
If you have been shooting Wolf ammo and this is a once out of the blue jam, just chalk it up to either slight more than normal case binding to the chamber wall, or some small piece of debris causing a problem with the ejector/extractor and the case being dropped off the bolt face before the clean ejection of the spent case at the end of rear stoke. As for solutions to try and prevent this from happening again, the upper lubed a little more with CLP, and a D fender/stronger extractor spring as stated by others will insure that the case is not dropped off the bolt face before the end of the extraction stroke like before. |
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