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Posted: 12/15/2015 6:30:32 PM EDT
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 6:43:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2015 6:45:35 PM EDT by OldArmy]
If your INTENT is to be able to openly shoulder it without worry, SBR tax stamp is the way to go.
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 6:51:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 7:09:10 PM EDT
Do what you want. Personally, pistols with braces get the job done. I would rather not pay their unconstitutional tax.
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 7:10:04 PM EDT
Shockwave brace is the way to go. If shit goes all mad max you can shoulder the fuck out of that thing
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 7:55:49 PM EDT
Why pay the extortion fee. Fuck em. Enjoy it with a brace of your choice. Don't think they will have a chance to do anything anyways if SHTF. Spend the 200 bucks on more ammo!
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 8:41:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BMGisbetter:
Shockwave brace is the way to go. If shit goes all mad max you can shoulder the fuck out of that thing
View Quote


+1 shockwave is the way you go i believe over the sig brace.  i must rather prefer the sbr but if that's too much for you, shockwave is a close second.
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 8:54:17 PM EDT
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 8:55:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
The main argument for the Sig Brace I now agree with is if you feel the need for a PDW, and want to be able to go state-to-state legally with your "pistol" and no NFA hassles.

I figure if I needed to do that, it was total Mad Max SHTF anyway... 5320.20 turnaround times are going to be awful.

Mutant slave-drawn stagecoach mail to Martinsburg WV will take a year or more to get there, assuming the convoy isn't attacked by the mohawk mutant zombie bikers along the way.

View Quote


like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).

just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:

1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

someone help me out with this one:

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 9:37:56 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kensteele:
like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).



just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:



1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.



someone help me out with this one:



2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
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Originally Posted By kensteele:



Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:

The main argument for the Sig Brace I now agree with is if you feel the need for a PDW, and want to be able to go state-to-state legally with your "pistol" and no NFA hassles.



I figure if I needed to do that, it was total Mad Max SHTF anyway... 5320.20 turnaround times are going to be awful.



Mutant slave-drawn stagecoach mail to Martinsburg WV will take a year or more to get there, assuming the convoy isn't attacked by the mohawk mutant zombie bikers along the way.







like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).



just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:



1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.



someone help me out with this one:



2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
A form 1 is an application to make a firearm. The firearm you are making is a shoulder fired weapon. It cannot be a pistol even if it starts as one.  A pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol but these are both title 1 weapons. With a form 1 you are making a new firearm, whether it if made from a block of metal or from an existing firearm does not matter. Once built via a form 1 that is the configuration it starts life as.  



 
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 9:39:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2015 9:43:03 PM EDT by OhShoot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kensteele:


like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).

just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:

1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

someone help me out with this one:

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By kensteele:
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
The main argument for the Sig Brace I now agree with is if you feel the need for a PDW, and want to be able to go state-to-state legally with your "pistol" and no NFA hassles.

I figure if I needed to do that, it was total Mad Max SHTF anyway... 5320.20 turnaround times are going to be awful.

Mutant slave-drawn stagecoach mail to Martinsburg WV will take a year or more to get there, assuming the convoy isn't attacked by the mohawk mutant zombie bikers along the way.



like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).

just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:

1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

someone help me out with this one:

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.


SBR does not become a pistol just because you remove the stock. It's just an SBR without the stock. As long as a short barrel is on it, it stays under NFA purview. Even if you sell it in GCA condition, the next owner can't put a short barrel on it either without a stamp.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/15/2015 9:42:34 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?
View Quote


Nobody knows.

All we know is that Max Kingery of the ATF says that if you either intend to, or actually do, use one for shoulder fire you have redesigned the weapon such that it becomes an SBR.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 12:16:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
A form 1 is an application to make a firearm. The firearm you are making is a shoulder fired weapon. It cannot be a pistol even if it starts as one.  A pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol but these are both title 1 weapons. With a form 1 you are making a new firearm, whether it if made from a block of metal or from an existing firearm does not matter. Once built via a form 1 that is the configuration it starts life as.  
 
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Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By kensteele:
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
The main argument for the Sig Brace I now agree with is if you feel the need for a PDW, and want to be able to go state-to-state legally with your "pistol" and no NFA hassles.

I figure if I needed to do that, it was total Mad Max SHTF anyway... 5320.20 turnaround times are going to be awful.

Mutant slave-drawn stagecoach mail to Martinsburg WV will take a year or more to get there, assuming the convoy isn't attacked by the mohawk mutant zombie bikers along the way.



like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).

just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:

1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

someone help me out with this one:

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
A form 1 is an application to make a firearm. The firearm you are making is a shoulder fired weapon. It cannot be a pistol even if it starts as one.  A pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol but these are both title 1 weapons. With a form 1 you are making a new firearm, whether it if made from a block of metal or from an existing firearm does not matter. Once built via a form 1 that is the configuration it starts life as.  
 


You know, I might have said that wrong.  Let me rephrase that:

Is this correct?

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that sbr across state line, you leave on the stock, swap out the short barrel upper with a long barrel upper, pack your weapon and leave your short barrel at home, and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

it's still an sbr but you don't need a 5320.20 because it doesn't have a "short" barrel.  Will this work or not?
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 1:09:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2015 2:40:09 AM EDT by OhShoot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kensteele:


You know, I might have said that wrong.  Let me rephrase that:

Is this correct?

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that sbr across state line, you leave on the stock, swap out the short barrel upper with a long barrel upper, pack your weapon and leave your short barrel at home, and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

it's still an sbr but you don't need a 5320.20 because it doesn't have a "short" barrel.  Will this work or not?
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Originally Posted By kensteele:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By kensteele:
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
The main argument for the Sig Brace I now agree with is if you feel the need for a PDW, and want to be able to go state-to-state legally with your "pistol" and no NFA hassles.

I figure if I needed to do that, it was total Mad Max SHTF anyway... 5320.20 turnaround times are going to be awful.

Mutant slave-drawn stagecoach mail to Martinsburg WV will take a year or more to get there, assuming the convoy isn't attacked by the mohawk mutant zombie bikers along the way.



like others, i have filled out a ton of 20-20s and they really aren't that bad.  with proper planning and using 1-year dates, you can cover most of your bases.  i wouldn't let that form standing in the way of your nfa aspirations.  30/45-days is not that long when it comes to planning most trips and i would be comfortable with geographic locations that are close to your destination (if not 100% spot-on).

just for the sake of clarity for those that may not be familiar, i think we should point out that following:

1.  if you have a 16-in carbine and you sbr it, you can legally put on an 11.5-in upper.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can put your 16-in upper back onto the lower, leave your 11.5-in upper at home, pack your rifle and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

someone help me out with this one:

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that weapon across state line, you can/cannot take off the stock, leave the stock at home, pack your pistol/sbr and cross the state line with/without a 5320.20.
A form 1 is an application to make a firearm. The firearm you are making is a shoulder fired weapon. It cannot be a pistol even if it starts as one.  A pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol but these are both title 1 weapons. With a form 1 you are making a new firearm, whether it if made from a block of metal or from an existing firearm does not matter. Once built via a form 1 that is the configuration it starts life as.  
 


You know, I might have said that wrong.  Let me rephrase that:

Is this correct?

2.  if you have an ar pistol  and you sbr it, you can now put a stock on it and shoulder it when you fire the weapon.  if tomorrow you need to take that sbr across state line, you leave on the stock, swap out the short barrel upper with a long barrel upper, pack your weapon and leave your short barrel at home, and cross the state line without a 5320.20.

it's still an sbr but you don't need a 5320.20 because it doesn't have a "short" barrel.  Will this work or not?


Yes. The rifle would then be in GCA (normal, non-NFA) condition and not under NFA purview, until you return home and again have the short barrel "under your control".  You could even sell it in that condition as a non-NFA rifle.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 2:53:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?
View Quote

Depends on what you want. I just got back my tax stamp after little more than 4 months, and now I can go to the range and walk around my workplace(when not on theclock) with my SBR and never have to worry about watching over my should about shouldering it

If you decide to go the route of "arm brace" then thats fine, just know that
1) you are not a badass for "saying NO to unconstitutional taxes!" because you aren't saying you will not obey, you are obeying by different means.
2) you spend like $50 less to get something which is less convenient, less comfortable, less diverse in selection, and one that people who are at all weary of the law(however stupid and arbirtary it may be) will be watching you.

Even after I had applied for my stamp and didnt have a brace OR stock on my pistol, I had a RSO tell me that I couldnt shoulder my AR pistol. Which is not true, even if you have an arm brace and you press the receiver extension against your shoulder you cant be prosecuted for it(not that you have better have that brace far enough forward to show you are pressing the buffer tube and not the brace or if some asshole FBI/ATF/LEO might try to arrest you/confiscate your AR pistol anyways).

The tax stamp sucks because you have to keep your bufferbare until they give you the okay, and you have to pay $200.
But- TO ME- the disadvantages of the tax stamp are far fewer than those disadvantages offered by going the arm-brace route.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 7:26:34 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Neutron3:

Depends on what you want. I just got back my tax stamp after little more than 4 months, and now I can go to the range and walk around my workplace(when not on theclock) with my SBR and never have to worry about watching over my should about shouldering it

If you decide to go the route of "arm brace" then thats fine, just know that
1) you are not a badass for "saying NO to unconstitutional taxes!" because you aren't saying you will not obey, you are obeying by different means.
2) you spend like $50 $125 less to get something which is less convenient, less comfortable, less diverse in selection, and one that people who are at all weary of the law(however stupid and arbirtary it may be) will be watching you.

Even after I had applied for my stamp and didnt have a brace OR stock on my pistol, I had a RSO tell me that I couldnt shoulder my AR pistol. Which is not true, even if you have an arm brace and you press the receiver extension against your shoulder you cant be prosecuted for it(not that you have better have that brace far enough forward to show you are pressing the buffer tube and not the brace or if some asshole FBI/ATF/LEO might try to arrest you/confiscate your AR pistol anyways).

The tax stamp sucks because you have to keep your bufferbare until they give you the okay, and you have to pay $200.
But- TO ME- the disadvantages of the tax stamp are far fewer than those disadvantages offered by going the arm-brace route.
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Originally Posted By Neutron3:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?

Depends on what you want. I just got back my tax stamp after little more than 4 months, and now I can go to the range and walk around my workplace(when not on theclock) with my SBR and never have to worry about watching over my should about shouldering it

If you decide to go the route of "arm brace" then thats fine, just know that
1) you are not a badass for "saying NO to unconstitutional taxes!" because you aren't saying you will not obey, you are obeying by different means.
2) you spend like $50 $125 less to get something which is less convenient, less comfortable, less diverse in selection, and one that people who are at all weary of the law(however stupid and arbirtary it may be) will be watching you.

Even after I had applied for my stamp and didnt have a brace OR stock on my pistol, I had a RSO tell me that I couldnt shoulder my AR pistol. Which is not true, even if you have an arm brace and you press the receiver extension against your shoulder you cant be prosecuted for it(not that you have better have that brace far enough forward to show you are pressing the buffer tube and not the brace or if some asshole FBI/ATF/LEO might try to arrest you/confiscate your AR pistol anyways).

The tax stamp sucks because you have to keep your bufferbare until they give you the okay, and you have to pay $200.
But- TO ME- the disadvantages of the tax stamp are far fewer than those disadvantages offered by going the arm-brace route.


The braces are anywhere from $40 to $75 nowadays, not $150. That aside, it's the principle of the thing; why in the hell should I pay my government, who already takes a good chunk out of every paycheck, for something that is protected by the second amendment?

Because the last time I checked, it said "Shall not be infringed," and Heller recognized it as an individual right; the Miller case states that weapons used by the Military are protected. And every M4 carbine in use is both a MG and an SBR.

And another thing, the government cannot tax a right. If they can tax it, then it is no longer a right; it is a privilege.(They tried taxing newspapers a long time ago; the court decided that they couldn't, because it would violate the First amendment) And again, the last time I checked, we don't have a goddamn Bill of Privileges.

How the hell has no one argued this against the NFA and firearms excise tax yet?
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 7:31:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2015 7:32:36 AM EDT by w33b8t1]
I have a sig brace.  For my purposes it is ok.  No worries about taking it anywhere.

Doubt I will buy a closet full of them.  One or two fills the gap for me.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 11:39:01 AM EDT
I chose shockwave brace over sbr. I just didn't want to pay a tax wait forever for permission and have all the restrictions of going sbr.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 12:00:28 PM EDT
Get both?
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 12:16:39 PM EDT
There is a third alternative.

Not brace no stock.

It's a pistol ie, Pistol Forum. Not SBR forum or Shockwave Brace Forum.

What gets lost in the discussion is that it's NOT the 250m bughole AR forum. Pistols and SBRs aren't intended for competition purposes to make small groups at long distances. They are intended by issue and use to make hits on live targets at short ranges. Points are not the medium of trade in combat, hits are. Hits cause incapacitation and the will to keep fighting is lost, ergo, no more shooting back. That is the point.

What does it take to make a hit on a target less than 100 yards - down to 21 feet - with a 2MOA weapon shooting an 18MOA target? You get the entire black area to make a hit if you use torso paper. I can put hits on a 12" bull at 25 meters with the AR pistol I built with iron sights. Someone with a red dot can do it with a bit of practice out to 100m. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=QG6z7GkK_zg

It's not rocket science.

Therefore why mess with a stock at all for a CQB weapon that isn't intended for long range use, can hit targets, and is by definition a short barreled nearly concealable weapon?

We don't need no stinkin' stocks. We just need to put the $200 toward more practice. Hits count, not looks. This is the focal point - all the hype about the stock is about making it LOOK like a HSLD operator weapon. There is a lot of that in society today, fancy watch, 911 jeans, IWB holstered battle gun, $250 clipped knife, and lets not forget, the nearly illegal but barely permitted SBR to really wow them at the range. Holy Smokes!

Both guns are equally lethal shooting the same ammo. The shooter? Not so much.

Save your money - no, spend it on ammo and go shoot it some more. Get better. Shoot moving targets, while on the move. Like real shooters train to do, not paper on a flat mowed grass range on a pretty Saturday afternoon..Bughole groups are nice for competition ranking, hits count in combat.

It's not about image, it's about ability.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 12:40:51 PM EDT
Tax stamp.

You can travel with it, you just have to send the ATF a letter.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 7:04:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2015 7:04:33 PM EDT by LastRites]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tirod:
There is a third alternative.

Not brace no stock.

It's a pistol ie, Pistol Forum. Not SBR forum or Shockwave Brace Forum.

What gets lost in the discussion is that it's NOT the 250m bughole AR forum. Pistols and SBRs aren't intended for competition purposes to make small groups at long distances. They are intended by issue and use to make hits on live targets at short ranges. Points are not the medium of trade in combat, hits are. Hits cause incapacitation and the will to keep fighting is lost, ergo, no more shooting back. That is the point.

What does it take to make a hit on a target less than 100 yards - down to 21 feet - with a 2MOA weapon shooting an 18MOA target? You get the entire black area to make a hit if you use torso paper. I can put hits on a 12" bull at 25 meters with the AR pistol I built with iron sights. Someone with a red dot can do it with a bit of practice out to 100m. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=QG6z7GkK_zg

It's not rocket science.

Therefore why mess with a stock at all for a CQB weapon that isn't intended for long range use, can hit targets, and is by definition a short barreled nearly concealable weapon?

We don't need no stinkin' stocks. We just need to put the $200 toward more practice. Hits count, not looks. This is the focal point - all the hype about the stock is about making it LOOK like a HSLD operator weapon. There is a lot of that in society today, fancy watch, 911 jeans, IWB holstered battle gun, $250 clipped knife, and lets not forget, the nearly illegal but barely permitted SBR to really wow them at the range. Holy Smokes!

Both guns are equally lethal shooting the same ammo. The shooter? Not so much.

Save your money - no, spend it on ammo and go shoot it some more. Get better. Shoot moving targets, while on the move. Like real shooters train to do, not paper on a flat mowed grass range on a pretty Saturday afternoon..Bughole groups are nice for competition ranking, hits count in combat.

It's not about image, it's about ability.
View Quote


It really is all about common sense or practical sense, but much of that seems to be lost these days.  Had brace and sold it long ago as my foam cover worked well enough for me and it just becomes a smaller package to boot.
Link Posted: 12/16/2015 10:06:50 PM EDT
I have a Sig brace on mine. Probably will SBR in the future.
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 3:41:33 AM EDT
SBR FTW!
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 9:18:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?
View Quote


Both. SBR a lower and build a similar "travel pistol" lower. When you're home, the upper sits on the SBR. When you travel, move the upper to the pistol.
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 9:54:59 AM EDT
im thinking about doning an sbr or two. i have about 20 ars in different calibers, lenghts and 5 of them are pistols. two have the sig brace, one has the shockwave, one has the thordsen with caa saddle and my .22 pistol is just foam on the tube. i cant have a loaded long gun in my vehicles in pa but pistols are gtg
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 1:14:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By endofdays:
im thinking about doning an sbr or two. i have about 20 ars in different calibers, lenghts and 5 of them are pistols. two have the sig brace, one has the shockwave, one has the thordsen with caa saddle and my .22 pistol is just foam on the tube. i cant have a loaded long gun in my vehicles in pa but pistols are gtg
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what's your quick review on the various braces?  
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 1:21:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By commoncents:


what's your quick review on the various braces?  
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Originally Posted By commoncents:
Originally Posted By endofdays:
im thinking about doning an sbr or two. i have about 20 ars in different calibers, lenghts and 5 of them are pistols. two have the sig brace, one has the shockwave, one has the thordsen with caa saddle and my .22 pistol is just foam on the tube. i cant have a loaded long gun in my vehicles in pa but pistols are gtg


what's your quick review on the various braces?  


shockwave on the extended kak tube is my favorite. its the lightest, cheapest, thinnest and works great
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 5:01:16 PM EDT
Shockwave brace and $200 worth of ammo.  There is a reason no one has been prosecuted for shouldering one.
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 5:23:55 PM EDT
As someone that owns both, it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

At least in my state, you can't conceal carry an SBR, but you can a pistol.

Sometimes I forget to file interstate travel forms and it's easier just to bring gun in the form of a pistol.

The blade stabilizer is the brace to get IMO.

Link Posted: 12/17/2015 7:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2015 7:37:09 PM EDT by OldArmy]
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Originally Posted By rb889:


The braces are anywhere from $40 to $75 nowadays, not $150. That aside, it's the principle of the thing; why in the hell should I pay my government, who already takes a good chunk out of every paycheck, for something that is protected by the second amendment?

Because the last time I checked, it said "Shall not be infringed," and Heller recognized it as an individual right; the Miller case states that weapons used by the Military are protected. And every M4 carbine in use is both a MG and an SBR.

And another thing, the government cannot tax a right. If they can tax it, then it is no longer a right; it is a privilege.(They tried taxing newspapers a long time ago; the court decided that they couldn't, because it would violate the First amendment) And again, the last time I checked, we don't have a goddamn Bill of Privileges.

How the hell has no one argued this against the NFA and firearms excise tax yet?
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Originally Posted By rb889:
Originally Posted By Neutron3:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?

Depends on what you want. I just got back my tax stamp after little more than 4 months, and now I can go to the range and walk around my workplace(when not on theclock) with my SBR and never have to worry about watching over my should about shouldering it

If you decide to go the route of "arm brace" then thats fine, just know that
1) you are not a badass for "saying NO to unconstitutional taxes!" because you aren't saying you will not obey, you are obeying by different means.
2) you spend like $50 $125 less to get something which is less convenient, less comfortable, less diverse in selection, and one that people who are at all weary of the law(however stupid and arbirtary it may be) will be watching you.

Even after I had applied for my stamp and didnt have a brace OR stock on my pistol, I had a RSO tell me that I couldnt shoulder my AR pistol. Which is not true, even if you have an arm brace and you press the receiver extension against your shoulder you cant be prosecuted for it(not that you have better have that brace far enough forward to show you are pressing the buffer tube and not the brace or if some asshole FBI/ATF/LEO might try to arrest you/confiscate your AR pistol anyways).

The tax stamp sucks because you have to keep your bufferbare until they give you the okay, and you have to pay $200.
But- TO ME- the disadvantages of the tax stamp are far fewer than those disadvantages offered by going the arm-brace route.


The braces are anywhere from $40 to $75 nowadays, not $150. That aside, it's the principle of the thing; why in the hell should I pay my government, who already takes a good chunk out of every paycheck, for something that is protected by the second amendment?

Because the last time I checked, it said "Shall not be infringed," and Heller recognized it as an individual right; the Miller case states that weapons used by the Military are protected. And every M4 carbine in use is both a MG and an SBR.

And another thing, the government cannot tax a right. If they can tax it, then it is no longer a right; it is a privilege.(They tried taxing newspapers a long time ago; the court decided that they couldn't, because it would violate the First amendment) And again, the last time I checked, we don't have a goddamn Bill of Privileges.

How the hell has no one argued this against the NFA and firearms excise tax yet?



Then just do what you want and put a real stock on and don't pay the tax, and don't bitch to anyone if one day the wrong LEO or ATF guy finds out and comes knocking. Maybe you will be the guy to make your case in court and win and cause the ATF to change to something that's more constitutionally correct.
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 11:55:18 PM EDT
So it looks like the blade would be the best choice at this point in time! With that said, which buffer tube would be best to have about the same length of pull as the third-fourth of a standard 6 position with a magpul stock?

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?

Link Posted: 12/18/2015 2:34:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2015 2:36:51 AM EDT by brodband8]
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Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
So it looks like the blade would be the best choice at this point in time! With that said, which buffer tube would be best to have about the same length of pull as the third-fourth of a standard 6 position with a magpul stock?

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?

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Just get the KAK dimpled tube.  It's only 20 dollars.  You can get the blade brace and tube off amazon for like 69.00 shipped.

The brace has a set screw so you can move it to whatever position on the dimpled tube and tighten it down.

Heres the tube:

http://www.amazon.com/KAK-SHOCKWAVE-TUBE/dp/B0109T0M2C/ref=pd_sim_200_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=41WXu2e5rwL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=175MQMGAY4F3WATPKJCH

Brace:

http://www.amazon.com/Shockwave-Technologies-Blade-Pistol-Stabilizer/dp/B00U6U0F2W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1450420468&sr=8-3&keywords=blade+stabilizer

If you need the castle nut and end plate and buffer/spring you can get a full kit here for $95.00

http://www.amazon.com/Shockwave-Blade-Pistol-Stabilizer-PACKAGE/dp/B0109LY5AA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1450420468&sr=8-8&keywords=blade+stabilizer
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 9:53:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2015 11:39:13 PM EDT by Bearcat24]
Just ordered a shockwave tube and brace from KAK for $75.45 shipped.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 11:18:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Litwin2015:

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?
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The ATF has stated they would consider shouldering a brace as "redesigning" the weapon into an SBR since a pistol, by their definition, can't be shouldered. In their mind, if you set up the brace in such a way because you want to shoulder the brace, you are setting up the brace as a stock and have, therefore, redesigned the weapon into an SBR. And if you are manufacturing an SBR, the ATF wants their extortion money.

My suggestion would be to do what you want with your own equipment but be careful about bragging about it or showing it off. Because their opinion on this implies intent, then ignorance on the subject is the defense. It's one thing if your setup is that of a pistol and an overzealous mistakenly thought you had an unregistered SBR. It's another thing to have a pistol set up to shoulder a brace and giving the ATF the evidence, in the form of a forum post, to show that shouldering the brace was your intention from the start. You may, and should, win in either case but you will still lose because you won't get back the time and money spent to defend yourself.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 11:33:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2015 11:33:34 AM EDT by Scuds03]
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Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
So it looks like the blade would be the best choice at this point in time! With that said, which buffer tube would be best to have about the same length of pull as the third-fourth of a standard 6 position with a magpul stock?

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?

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My rifle shown above has the KAK brace/tube kit on it.  Very high quality and they ship fast.  It has dimples for pretty much any length of pull you want.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 1:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2015 1:28:47 PM EDT by ElvisTCB]
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Originally Posted By Scuds03:

My rifle shown above has the KAK brace/tube kit on it.  Very high quality and they ship fast.  It has dimples for pretty much any length of pull you want.
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Originally Posted By Scuds03:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
So it looks like the blade would be the best choice at this point in time! With that said, which buffer tube would be best to have about the same length of pull as the third-fourth of a standard 6 position with a magpul stock?

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?


My rifle shown above has the KAK brace/tube kit on it.  Very high quality and they ship fast.  It has dimples for pretty much any length of pull you want.


You mean "Pistol shown above", Correct?
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 3:13:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:


Nobody knows.

All we know is that Max Kingery of the ATF says that if you either intend to, or actually do, use one for shoulder fire you have redesigned the weapon such that it becomes an SBR.

- OS
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?


Nobody knows.

All we know is that Max Kingery of the ATF says that if you either intend to, or actually do, use one for shoulder fire you have redesigned the weapon such that it becomes an SBR.

- OS

And apparently if I drive my car off a cliff I must register it with the FAA for the time it's in the air as an aircraft if I survive. Because by that logic a car while in the air was remanufactured as an aircraft
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 3:47:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ElvisTCB:


You mean "Pistol shown above", Correct?
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Originally Posted By ElvisTCB:
Originally Posted By Scuds03:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
So it looks like the blade would be the best choice at this point in time! With that said, which buffer tube would be best to have about the same length of pull as the third-fourth of a standard 6 position with a magpul stock?

Is the blade somewhat comfortable to shoulder, given that it is so thin?


My rifle shown above has the KAK brace/tube kit on it.  Very high quality and they ship fast.  It has dimples for pretty much any length of pull you want.


You mean "Pistol shown above", Correct?

Haha got me!  This semantics stuff is why most of our gun laws are so retarded.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 4:05:02 PM EDT
All my "under 16 inch" uppers have lowers with a sig brace on them until the SBR stamps come in to allow them to be a SBR's.   The shockwave looks pretty good and I've heard nothing but positive reviews about them.  Unfortunately I found out too late about them and had already purchased the sig braces.  I don't really enjoy shooting (legally) with the braces so thats why I went ahead and paid for the stamp.  I know I'll be happier with a SBR, but you have to decide which you'll be happier with in the end.  Good luck!  
Link Posted: 12/19/2015 1:34:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:

And apparently if I drive my car off a cliff I must register it with the FAA for the time it's in the air as an aircraft if I survive. Because by that logic a car while in the air was remanufactured as an aircraft
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Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?


Nobody knows.

All we know is that Max Kingery of the ATF says that if you either intend to, or actually do, use one for shoulder fire you have redesigned the weapon such that it becomes an SBR.

- OS

And apparently if I drive my car off a cliff I must register it with the FAA for the time it's in the air as an aircraft if I survive. Because by that logic a car while in the air was remanufactured as an aircraft


They should have to show that you intended to drive the car off the cliff. The problem with intent is proving it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2015 5:06:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By thperez1972:


They should have to show that you intended to drive the car off the cliff. The problem with intent is proving it.
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Originally Posted By thperez1972:
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?


Nobody knows.

All we know is that Max Kingery of the ATF says that if you either intend to, or actually do, use one for shoulder fire you have redesigned the weapon such that it becomes an SBR.

- OS

And apparently if I drive my car off a cliff I must register it with the FAA for the time it's in the air as an aircraft if I survive. Because by that logic a car while in the air was remanufactured as an aircraft


They should have to show that you intended to drive the car off the cliff. The problem with intent is proving it.


In the case of shouldering a brace, no intent required according to Mad Max, only whether you do it or not.

In the case of the car, I think you'd have to have added wings to be in violation.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:38:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By thperez1972:


Both. SBR a lower and build a similar "travel pistol" lower. When you're home, the upper sits on the SBR. When you travel, move the upper to the pistol.
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Originally Posted By thperez1972:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?


Both. SBR a lower and build a similar "travel pistol" lower. When you're home, the upper sits on the SBR. When you travel, move the upper to the pistol.


^^^^ exactly this.  End of thread, thx.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 12:33:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 12:47:21 AM EDT by Onslaught]
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Originally Posted By MAC-47:

^^^^ exactly this.  End of thread, thx.
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Originally Posted By MAC-47:
Originally Posted By thperez1972:
Originally Posted By Litwin2015:
Should I just put a sig brace on a 11.5 or SBR it and pay the tax stamp?


Both. SBR a lower and build a similar "travel pistol" lower. When you're home, the upper sits on the SBR. When you travel, move the upper to the pistol.

^^^^ exactly this.  End of thread, thx.


Double Ditto.  I have 2 of each and the ONLY time I ever even touch a pistol lower is when I go to FIL's house the next state over to shoot.  He doesn't want me to submit the 5320.20 with his address on it and I respect that.

My PCC is absolutely a must for an SBR since I take it to the local indoor range.



You can discuss which brace is most comfortable to shoulder, or you can use the most comfortable STOCK for your needs.
With an SBR, I also don't have to worry about what kinds of foregrip I can or can't use.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 2:50:53 PM EDT
^if you don't list his exact address on the 5320.20, i'm pretty sure you can instead list a nearby gun shop or gun range and still go shoot your sbr wherever you want (within reason).
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 5:49:41 PM EDT
No experience with SIG brace; went with KAK because of the sleeker style and lower for my 300BLK. I would never, ever, ever think of shouldering it, but I "know a guy who knows a guy" who has, and he told me (through an undisclosed third party) that it shoulders like a dream.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:25:55 AM EDT
"shockwave on the extended kak tube is my favorite."

-- Since you had so many, I was hoping to hear your favorite.
But as I understand it, the shockwave doesn't fit on the extended KAK tube; that one is too thin since it's made for the SIG (so the blade would be really loose on it).
The normal KAK tube is 1.25" and the extended is like 1.10".
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:31:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?
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Same as it ever was. Except some fuckwit at the ATF issued a vaguely worded letter that the barracks lawyers got their panties in a bunch over.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 9:05:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By eviljoe:
"shockwave on the extended kak tube is my favorite."

The normal KAK tube is 1.25" and the extended is like 1.10". closer to 1.172 or a smidgen more.
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Link Posted: 1/2/2016 9:06:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BMGisbetter:
Shockwave brace is the way to go.
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Yep.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 6:35:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 6:37:55 PM EDT by OhShoot]
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Originally Posted By Rooster-Cogburn:


Same as it ever was. Except some fuckwit at the ATF issued a vaguely worded letter that the barracks lawyers got their panties in a bunch over.
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Originally Posted By Rooster-Cogburn:
Originally Posted By gks452:
Sorry, I've been away from this site for a while. What is the current legal status of the Sig Brace?


Same as it ever was. Except some fuckwit at the ATF issued a vaguely worded letter that the barracks lawyers got their panties in a bunch over.


What's vague about taboo of shouldering one with a short barrel without a stamp?

- OS
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