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Posted: 5/4/2004 10:48:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 10:54:39 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]
I am considering getting an 11.5" barrel setup, yes I will have to do the NFA registering paperworks & fee.

Would the 11.5" barrel too short and reduce bullet velocity & won't allow the bullet to fragment & yaw ?

Please help me out w/ the pro & cons.

Pros:
Compact & cool looking.

Cons:
- Velocity loss
- Cycling / feeding / ejection problems w/ short barrel ?
- Noise level increase ?
- anything else ?



Here's baby's current setup:

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/5906TswBaby/RRA_L.jpg
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:03:36 AM EST
Dude don't touch your setup, it's SHWEET. Well OK, that BUIS can take a hike but other than that, I really like your rig. As for the short barrle cons, check out the Ammo-Oracal. www.ammo-oracle.com/ The Oracal Knows all.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:28:02 AM EST
While they look really cool, when I broached the question of short barrelled AR's/m-16's with some folks at Armalite and what can be done to make them run well/reliably. I got: "We make those barrels only under protest!" "The system was designed on a 20 inch barrel, not half that!" "It will work fine with 16 and okay with 14.5 inchs but when you get any shorter, expect problems."

Really not what I wanted to hear myself - I really think they look cool, but with these kinds of statements plus the other known issues, I'm sticking with my 16inch barrels.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:38:56 AM EST
While on the subject....

...where can I find a step-by-step guide for what needs to be done to legally acquire a short-barreled rifle ?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 2:41:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By JHaines:
While on the subject....

...where can I find a step-by-step guide for what needs to be done to legally acquire a short-barreled rifle ?

Thanks.


Look in the machine gun forum.

The pros to a 11.5 for a civvy are that it's fun. That's it.
The cons are the velocity loss and reliability.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 2:45:50 PM EST
11.5" is probably too short for any social work, but if you want a unique (relatively speaking) AR, then its all good. Or, if you are thinking of building a 11.5" .45 ACP upper so that putting a suppressor on it won't make it too long.....
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 3:06:34 PM EST
I got an 11.5"/5.5" barrel off a guy who could not get it to run. The original gas hole on these is 0.092". I over drilled it to "0.105" and installed an adjustable gas tube from Fulton Armory. Now it functions perfectly and I can tune it to a carbine lower or rifle lower to optimize its function. I also tuned it to a custom shorty stock I have. They are pains in the butt sometimes, but they can be made functional.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:08:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter:
11.5" is probably too short for any social work, but if you want a unique (relatively speaking) AR, then its all good.



HMMMM---- then why was there 2 fellas walking around outside my place of employ today sporting A2 stocked 11.5" M16's today???

BTW, they was part of the local PD contingency working with Secret Service as President Bush was at the facility across the street today as he rallied through Ohio.....
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:23:25 PM EST
I have a registered 11.5" gun. A Bushmaster barrel and upper. It runs super-reliably. There's nothing special about the gas tube, gas port size or anything else.

Most 11.5" semi-auto uppers will run reliably with no work at all. There are certainly exceptions to this, of course. Full-auto reliability is more of a challenge, but usually a "pig-tail" gas tube will fix that. No downside here except in the odd case.

Sure, ballistics fall off after 100M, but in my neighborhood there are few places that you can actually see that far unobstructed. For anything less than SHTF work it would be extremely unlikely that you would need to shoot further than that given the requirement for target ID. My weapon shoots accurately out to 200M, although ballistics out there are indeed questionable, not that I would want to stand in front of those bullets. For most purposes, again no downside. If you need to shoot past 100M, well then you've got an issue.

Yes, it's a bit louder, but only for the bystanders, not for the shooter! With a Vortex or Phantom flash suppressor and good ammo there is no flash. No downside here.

I wouldn't trade mine for the world. It is incredibly handy and light. It's easy to store. It's much easier to use indoors than a 16" AR or an 18" shotgun. It's going to be more effective than a pistol. With a sound suppressor it's no longer than a 16" weapon. If you're not shooting past 100M what's not to like?

Lately I've been thinking about putting together a 10.5" FAL. Now that would by handy...
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:27:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:

Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter:
11.5" is probably too short for any social work, but if you want a unique (relatively speaking) AR, then its all good.



HMMMM---- then why was there 2 fellas walking around outside my place of employ today sporting A2 stocked 11.5" M16's today???

BTW, they was part of the local PD contingency working with Secret Service as President Bush was at the facility across the street today as he rallied through Ohio.....



Yea, I used to live in NH and there, you can't cross the street some times every four years without meeting the president/VP/candidate *AGAIN*. Once I met VP Gore at a restaurant whom every thinking gun-owner should hate. We were peacefully having lunch when all these soldiers begin blocking the road and running around with some heavy firepower. Now we couldn't leave because our car was parked very close to the restaurant. Anyway, the amount of firepower was simply amazing. We're milling around bored picking at the remnants of our food and the beer is working so I decide I have to take a leak. At that moment, Gore comes in, well, a USSS agent decides I am walking a little too purposefully toward 'him' (I did have to pee and 'he' was between me and the head). I got a very skillful and a little violent bump search. By mere coincidence I wasn't carrying that day. Why don't you see that stuff on TV? Snipers with schweet M14s on the roof, an actual M60, and some M4s were in sight (I don't recall any 11.5" though).

Why would they prefer A2 stocked 11.5" rifles for a protection detail is a real mystery for me, though.

Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:38:09 PM EST
Refer to the OHIO forum, but our lot was full of SS, and some others in black gear and vests. I have some pics, but the disc is not co-operating with the computer. One of the vehicles had the rear (SUV) packed up with large rifle cases. Seen no MP-5's, just the 10.5 or 11.5" M16's the local PD had at the roadblocks. They didn't even do the roof top thing at ours or the other dealership across the street.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 6:55:00 PM EST
I wouldnt have a 11.5" as my only AR but its fun just the same, Havnt had any troubles out of mine. And it works pretty good as Bolt gun repellant at the public ranges

Link Posted: 5/4/2004 7:48:02 PM EST
I have one and I use it for social work......


What folks won't tell you is that there is other ammo out there that performs in 11.5 inch weapons. TAP ammo is good, as is soft point ammo. I have a bushie 11.5 upper (without feed ramps mind you) that eat both reliably.


My 11.5 inch is as reliable as any other AR I own.

So to put it bluntly, there's a lot of bullshit being thrown around here, and it ain't me......
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:54:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:17:00 PM EST
I love 11.5's. I have a Colt and a Bushy 11.5 upper and both have ran like a top right out of the box. Other brands (well maybe not LMT) and you may be rolling the dice but that's not to say other people can make functional commando uppers.

They are mostly for fun and social work. They are handy to throw in a trunk or swing around inside a room. At room distances, lethality is just fine, but at any distance and you are going to be giving up a LOT of velocity. I'd have to reference the ammo oracle but doesn't fragmenting stop at something like 15yards with 11.5's? That may be fine for work though as most engagement distances tend to be something around 21ft I think, and if you expect farther then it's not the one you should be bringing to the dance.

They are LOUD. Some are unreliable. You lose velocity up the ying yang. But, they are cool. I use mine on an M16 but I am days away from getting an SBR registered so I can throw it in the trunk and not worry about an expensive MG to get stolen or beaten around. I like them, but I'm not going to take one into a battle that I can prepare for unless it's going to be up close and personal. Fire it in an enclosed space without a suppressor and hearing protection and expect to feel the blood to be running out your ears.

When you are at the range - be different (different is cool IMO), when they all pull out their 14.5's, 16's, 18's, and 20 or 20+, whip out the 11.5 and catch them all looking on and asking you about it.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:23:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 3:35:14 AM EST by mongo001]
I pulled my 11.5" unreliability info and solutions out of well known reference books, I didn't make it up or try to "throw bullshit around here".

And the problems and solutions are documented here on ARFCOM - www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=153425
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:32:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:53:31 AM EST by jjmcrowell]

HMMMM---- then why was there 2 fellas walking around outside my place of employ today sporting A2 stocked 11.5" M16's today???

BTW, they was part of the local PD contingency working with Secret Service as President Bush was at the facility across the street today as he rallied through Ohio.....





That sounds like the shortys Trotwood PD has....If it is. I know their 11.5s work, I was in a class with some of their officers. At first I thought you were talking about my dept's shortys, but we have collapsible stocks, ours work just fine..It's the rifle of choice.

True they are a little bit louder than a 14.5", however it is hard to determine which is louder on the firing line.... and no trouble hitting 12" steel plates at 200yds, we use 55gr and 60gr TAP Urban and it seems to perform well.

Here you go..... somebody who worked 3rd shift and is waiting President Bush and the secret service to arrive. And of course his 11.5" m-16

http://www.hunt101.com/img/149249.jpg
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 6:29:21 AM EST
If you stick with one of the bigger companies your 11.5-upper should work fine. I used a Bushmaster 11.5 upper on a RR for a couple years and I never had a jam or other problem. In a semi-auto, the problems will be even less of an issue.

I just bought one of Legal Transfers 11.5-in 1:7 twist Bushmaster barrels and I am planning to use it with my AR-pistol after Sept. and with the SWD LL ASAP!

I like the 14.5-in uppers better, but the 11.5s are fun!
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 7:01:18 AM EST
Thanks for the info. gentlemen.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:43:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By jjmcrowell:
[

That sounds like the shortys Trotwood PD has....If it is. I know their 11.5s work, I was in a class with some of their officers. At first I thought you were talking about my dept's shortys, but we have collapsible stocks, ours work just fine..It's the rifle of choice.


Here you go..... somebody who worked 3rd shift and is waiting President Bush and the secret service to arrive. And of course his 11.5" m-16

www.hunt101.com/img/149249.jpg




Sir, you are correct in the "Trotwood PD". I work at the Jeff Wyler dealer on the south west side of the Shiloh Spring-Wolf Rd intersection.... (1) Trotwood was at our east driveway with a short M16 in the middle of Wolf Rd, another Trotwood was east of the intersection on Shiloh Spring with his short M16, 3rd (Emmel) was at our front drive & had a 16" it looked like. I have a pic of the Wolf Rd fella, but I think my "A" drive is toast, so I'll need to upload from work and go from there.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:22:00 PM EST
As soon as you said 11.5" barrels and A2 stocks, I thought of Trotwood. They have DPMS rifles, they seem to like them. But I like the collapsible stocks....to each his own.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 7:26:07 PM EST
So what kind of accuracy do you guys average with a 11.5" upper?
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:01:17 PM EST
Keep in mind that length of barrel does not change inherent accuracy. A short barrel can be as or more accurate than a longer barrel, and in fact, tend to whip less. However, velocity will be down so the round won't be as flat shooting nor will it be as close to target at longer ranges.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:11:43 PM EST
I was wondering... I have a signed form 1 here and have not decided which length to go with, 14.5" or 11.5"? If the 11.5" will be just as accurate at no more than 200 yards then thats what I will go with. Fragmentation is not a concern for me. I do not shoot people with my AR ...lol... and in the freak event I would have to, the bullet catcher would be up close so this is not an issue. I punch holes in paper, nothing more...lol...
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 4:57:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 6:45:10 AM EST by SBR7_11]
JJ, here is the Trotwood fella at our side driveway (Arena Dodge in background), do you know him?

Recognize the rifle? Also a couple of other pics I took from the lot.



Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:21:04 AM EST
My bushy 11.5 works fine. As a SBR semi I have had no hicups at all with M193 or Black Hills 68gr. or M855. I am sure the green tip does not do much as reduced length. accuracy is fine for to 150 yards and I would rather use 223 for close range work than 9MM any day. M193 frags just fine at 50 yards. I have yet to try TAP or the 77 gran stuff but I will be hitting the reloading bench soon.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:22:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 5:40:43 AM EST by jjmcrowell]

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
JJ, here is the Trotwood fella at our side driveway (Arena Dodge in background), do you know him?

Recognize the rifle? Also a couple of other pics I took from the lot.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid115/p5a7deb9a123f372aac6971514a0ca582/f8c43891.jpg



No, I don't know him....but that does look like their rifles. Not to many depts in southern Ohio have that configuration.

AK_Mike is absolutely right, my 11.5" is just as accurate as a 14.5" rifle I have and more accurate than my 16" 6920. I can easily make head shots on a 100 yds target. One of our shorties is an LMT 10.5" and it seems to do even better.

Granted these are not precision weapons either, entries is their primary use. The 11.5" is slight bit longer than an MP5, but so much more powerful.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:48:23 AM EST
I have a bushy-rebarreled upper with their HBAR 11.5-5.5 setup...it runs perfectly. Extraction and ejection aren't much more vigorous than a normal 20" AR.

I have another custom-built 11.5" upper that was built up as an XM177E1 clone (forward assist, pencil barrel, 5.5" flash hider for legality's sake)...it wouldn't extract. Added a rubber o-ring from one of my old RC cars (made out of the same stuff that the D-fender is made out of)..sorta worked, but not reliably. Stuck in a 2nd o-ring...now it reliably extracts.

The problem is that it now ejects STRAIGHT BACK..there are brass dings all up and down the forward assist area. It hasen't yanked off any case rims in the 500+ rounds I've thrown through it since I put the two o-rings on, but...it piles up all the brass at my 5-5:30, about 5 feet back, consistently.

Only fired M193 surplus (SA, or Q3131A) through it as it's a 1/12" barrel.

Extraction is pretty vigorous as well.

Pluses: looks nice, perfect for close-range stuff, good for indoor as well. Accuracy should be the same at comparable distances.

Cons: loud, lots of flash without a surpressor of some kind (roast some marshmallows without one), loss of long-range stopping power (past 100 meters or so), loss of velocity leading to loss of range.

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:17:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:
I was wondering... I have a signed form 1 here and have not decided which length to go with, 14.5" or 11.5"? If the 11.5" will be just as accurate at no more than 200 yards then thats what I will go with. Fragmentation is not a concern for me. I do not shoot people with my AR ...lol... and in the freak event I would have to, the bullet catcher would be up close so this is not an issue. I punch holes in paper, nothing more...lol...



I don't know if it's "just as accurate", but I can keep all my rounds on an 8" metal plate at 200M.

Link Posted: 5/10/2004 8:54:47 PM EST
I have decided to SBR my Bushmaster. I am going with 11.5 and I cant wait to see how it turns out, love the pics by the way.
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