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Posted: 5/27/2018 5:20:35 AM EDT
Hey, need some help. Feeling pretty down and wondering if I destroyed a perfectly good rifle. I've assembled a dozen AR's and never had an issue. Changed a bunch of handguards out, no problems. All sorts of other stuff.
I have a BCM upper that I was wanting to change the handguard on. Rifle always functioned flawlessly, but wanted to spruce it up a bit with something that suited my current needs of the rifle. using a Geissele Reaction Rod, I removed the old handguard and gas block, and went to take off the barrel nut. Would. Not. Budge. I've heard BCM likes going nuts with the red loctite, so applied heat from a propane torch for a bit. Wouldn't budge. Froze it. Wouldn't budge. Tried the torch again, heated it up good, and applied gorilla force, and finally it moves... only for me to discover that the fucking upper is spinning along with the barrel nut, while the barrel doesn't move. I clamped the upper in one of those cheesy plastic upper blocks i'd been hoping to replace with the reaction rod, and got the barrel nut off eventually, but the index pin looks to have sheered off, and the upper's a little chewed up where the index pin had been. So am I just overall fucked or what? Barrel toast? Upper toast? Can I get the index pin replaced and salvage this situation by popping it back into the upper and applying the new handguard that caused this whole mess? Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Call up adco and have pictures ready to go, and see what they can do.
The concern I would have is sometimes with that much force, you can tweak the upper receiver, which can cause problems. |
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I think you're fine. I've installed a barrel with a sheared pin before. You just need to back up the barrel while tightening the nut to make sure it doesn't spin with the nut.
The pin is just an index pin. It doesn't really hold anything once the barrel nut is tight. There have been no issues with that carbine since I installed the barrel, Actually, its a pretty good shooter. |
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Some of you guys love reaction rods, while I don't instead.
Hence reaction rod is no different that just vise clamping the barrel, and the real torque to the upper is at the upper receiver instead. Worse yet, if the barrel extension was not installed at 150ftlbs of torque to start with, you do chance spinning the barrel nut off the barrel with a stubborn barrel nut being removed as well. So myself, will always use a clamp shell upper vice block with insert to back up the upper receiver, since it going to be the area that is going to see the majority of the torque when both installing and removing the barrel nut. If the barrel extension pin is loose the socket slot, then soda can to make some small sliver shims solves that problem as well to hold the barrel indexed correctly. As for the receiver extension pin, and even the dent in the upper barrel socket, no the end of the world. The extension pin can be drilled out and a new one punched in. Just don't over drill in depth, and try to use a mill to cleanly center drill the pin out with a slightly smaller center drill. Hence slightly smaller center drill and as you are getting close to the bottom of the pin, the receiver extension pin will spin out with the drill bit 99% of the time. Note, if you don't have a mill, then take/send the barrel to someone that has a mill. The last thing you want to do is enlarge the pin channel, or over drill the pin to deep isntead. http://www.jsesurplus.com/ar15barrelextensionpinpinonly.aspx As for the dent in the upper receiver barrel socket slot, cut piece of a soda can to shim the barrel in index before the barrel nut is installed, and Bob is your uncle. |
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You're not fucked so don't worry too much. The only bbl extension index pin I've ever had trouble with was BCM. It popped out on me multiple times.
As Dano said, all you're going to need to do is drill out the remnants of the index pin, and pop a new one in. (I used needle noses and a hammer for this to pilot, then punch and hammer to seat it. And the piece of sods can as receiver dent shim method sounds good to me. |
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Appreciate the help guys. Not having to buy a new barrel + upper receiver is a relief. If this was a cheap barrel I probably would have just bought a new one, but cold hammer forged barrels are just a tad too expensive to just toss in the trash for a new one.
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If you don't have a mill, check in your home town forum for someone close that does, and it it will only take a min to remove the remnants of the old pin. The extension pin is just .125" by .250", and easy enough to make a new one of of some A1 or O1 drill stock to punch back in, or just off the end of a 1/8" drill bit if you really want to be lazy instead.
Hell, if you where local Denver area, would have you stop by to just mill the what left of the pin out with a center drill, then make new receiver extension pin to reinstall as well (have plenty of 1/8" drill stock in the shop). |
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This is why you don't use a standard reaction rod to remove/install barrel nuts. You're holding the part that has the least pressure exerted on it from the barrel nut (the barrel, the barrel extension flange is the only part of the barrel that comes in contact with the nut). The part that you are not holding (the upper receiver) is the part that has the most contact with the barrel nut you're trying to torque/loosen.
Guess what happens? The receiver tries to turn with the barrel nut, exerting enormous pressure on the index pin. In some cases, that index pin gives way. Receiver blocks or the Super Reaction Rod (which has two tabs that are installed through the ejection port to support the upper) are the way to go for installation and/or removal of barrel nuts. |
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I made the mistake of reading the hype about the reaction rod, and geissele's own website suggests it for use for installing and removing barrels. Figured I'd be good to go. Now I obviously regret that decision and I think I'd have been better off with the tools I already had. In hindsight I can see how the force was being applied to the index pin and why this happened. So is this reaction rod good for anything other than holding an upper still, or an expensive paper weight?
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Quoted:
I made the mistake of reading the hype about the reaction rod, and geissele's own website suggests it for use for installing and removing barrels. Figured I'd be good to go. Now I obviously regret that decision and I think I'd have been better off with the tools I already had. In hindsight I can see how the force was being applied to the index pin and why this happened. So is this reaction rod good for anything other than holding an upper still, or an expensive paper weight? View Quote |
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Quoted:
I made the mistake of reading the hype about the reaction rod, and geissele's own website suggests it for use for installing and removing barrels. Figured I'd be good to go. Now I obviously regret that decision and I think I'd have been better off with the tools I already had. In hindsight I can see how the force was being applied to the index pin and why this happened. So is this reaction rod good for anything other than holding an upper still, or an expensive paper weight? View Quote |
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I've been using the bev block for my barrel work needs. Do they have the same issue as the reaction rods or are they gtg?
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You can use an old pivot pin or a 1/4" clevis pin instead of the plastic one on the Bev block, then the clevis pin works great as a pivot pin tool
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Quoted:
You can use an old pivot pin or a 1/4" clevis pin instead of the plastic one on the Bev block, then the clevis pin works great as a pivot pin tool View Quote |
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I made no mention of the dpms block, just using an alternate pin on the BEVBLOCK if one desires. The alternate pin is easier to use and as I see it simply aids in the retention of the upper to keep the other engagement points in contact.
So the consensus is a upper clamp type block? I sheared an index pin two days ago using the clamp block on an upper while removing just a standard. FH with a crush washer in place, no compound on threads or corrosion, etc. Oddity? Just asking a question not questioning the info. |
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Quoted:
I made no mention of the dpms block, just using an alternate pin on the BEVBLOCK if one desires. The alternate pin is easier to use and as I see it simply aids in the retention of the upper to keep the other engagement points in contact. So the consensus is a upper clamp type block? I sheared an index pin two days ago using the clamp block on an upper while removing just a standard. FH with a crush washer in place, no compound on threads or corrosion, etc. Oddity? Just asking a question not questioning the info. View Quote Clamp whatever part you’re applying the most torque to. If you’re installing or removing a barrel nut, that would be the upper, so use a clamshell type block or something else that actually supports the upper. If you’re removing or installing a muzzle device, the torque you’re applying is being transferred to the barrel, NOT the upper, so you’re going to want to secure the barrel. Barrel blocks are the best, IMO, but a Reaction rod type device works good as well (with the slight chance of unscrewing an extension if the barrel wasn’t assembled properly). Using any type of clamshell block for muzzle device work is just asking for problems (as you now know from experience). |
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Thanks, that makes sense. Of course the culprit was laziness as I was doing barrel work and the FH was an afterthought. The old "pop, oh FFFFFF" Good part was/is all used stuff for props.
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I'm always surprised that people still end up using upper receiver vise blocks for muzzle device work.
The incorrect use of upper receiver vise blocks and barrel blocks was pretty much the only source of sheared indexing pins before the Reaction Rod came along and quadrupled the numbers. |
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Quoted:
The DPMS style upper receiver vise block using pins in both the take down and pivot pin lugs to hold the upper in place. I've seen pictures of those lugs snapped off from using that block to install a barrel. View Quote |
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Quoted: I've used a DPMS block and DPMS wrench for every one of my AR builds (about two dozen now). I torque them with a real torque wrench, though, so maybe that's why I have only had success thus far. View Quote I've only heard of maybe a couple cracking issues with the DPMS Panther Claw vise block over the years. If I were to be removing barrel nuts with it (just out of an abundance of caution) I would clamp it sideways in a vise with a block over the top rail, as with the PlastiXrevolution upper receiver vise blocks. |
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Have never had problems with a upper vise blocks, since it supports the upper receiver right behind the upper barrel socket, and has an insert to prevent the vise block from denting in sides of the upper channel when the upper with block is vised down to cause carrier bind afterwards as well.
https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/skus/l_080000659_2.jpg With the twin pin type blocks, have seen take down lugs bent, or cracked off when you run into a stubborn barrel nut isntead. With reactor rod that use the ejector port as the secure point, ditto on damage to either the ejector port, or sheared extension pin on stubborn barrel nuts as well. Hell, most of the time, you can spin a barrel nut off by just sitting on the receiver, but when you run into a stubborn barrel nut, here is where the upper claim shell vise blocks shine. |
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This is about the only way I know of on one that stubborn not to mess something up. Something similar is sold by the company mentioned in below post.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Question_on_your_upper_assembly_jig/489-227022/? |
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Quoted:
This is about the only way I know of on one that stubborn not to mess something up and it is not sold. https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Question_on_your_upper_assembly_jig/489-227022/? View Quote The Windham Weaponry barreling jigs are available for $350.00... I have one. I also have the more affordable copy of it made by 2UniqueLLC. > Link. They work great for preventing a sheared indexing pin and for keeping the sights in alignment since you don't have to rely on the indexing pin to keep the upper from wanting to turn with the barrel nut. I still wouldn't use them for removing barrel nuts though. My procedure for removing barrel nuts involves inserting the 2UniqueLLC barreling jig into the upper receiver/barrel extension for internal support, then I clamp the upper receiver in the vise with a set of clam shell upper receiver vise blocks. You could also do this for installing barrel nuts if you want to be overly cautious. |
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Quoted:
Have never had problems with a upper vise blocks, since it supports the upper receiver right behind the upper barrel socket, and has an insert to prevent the vise block from denting in sides of the upper channel when the upper with block is vised down to cause carrier bind afterwards as well. https://cdn-us-cf2.yottaa.net/53ff2f503c881650e20004c9/www.brownells.com/v~22.c1/userdocs/products/p_702003015_1.jpg?yocs=p_&yoloc=us https://i.imgur.com/WUpMnSv.jpg https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/skus/l_080000659_2.jpg With the twin pin type blocks, have seen take down lugs bent, or cracked off when you run into a stubborn barrel nut isntead. http://www.customar15.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/308.jpg With reactor rod that use the ejector port as the secure point, ditto on damage to either the ejector port, or sheared extension pin on stubborn barrel nuts as well. Hell, most of the time, you can spin a barrel nut off by just sitting on the receiver, but when you run into a stubborn barrel nut, here is where the upper claim shell vise blocks shine. View Quote I also have the Geissele Super Reaction Rod, and while it did seem to work okay for the few barrel installations that the brass wedge system mounting screws lasted through, I also wouldn't use it for barrel nut removal. The support it gives to the upper through the ejection port with the tiny brass wedges is just not enough to resist a stubborn barrel nut IMO. The brass wedge system itself was also a real pain in the ass to work with because every time that you changed the direction of torque on the barrel nut (either tightening or loosening) you had to readjust the brass wedges. Tightening one wedge first and then the other for tightening the barrel nut and then doing the wedge tightening procedure in reverse for loosening the barrel nut. |
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Quoted:
So the consensus is a upper clamp type block? View Quote OR https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Windham-Weaponry-upper-assembly-jig-2UniqueLLC-jig-now-available-/489-254215/?page=2#i3278124 |
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Update: Got the old index pin drilled out easy enough. Tapped in a new one with hammer and brass punch. Made some aluminum shims to take care of the little bit if play between index pin and receiver where it had been slightly damaged. Re-installed barrel and new handguard. All seems to be well again. Appreciate the tips. First time i've had that happen, but know how to handle it in the future if it happens again at any rate.
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Quoted:
I made no mention of the dpms block, just using an alternate pin on the BEVBLOCK if one desires. The alternate pin is easier to use and as I see it simply aids in the retention of the upper to keep the other engagement points in contact. So the consensus is a upper clamp type block? I sheared an index pin two days ago using the clamp block on an upper while removing just a standard. FH with a crush washer in place, no compound on threads or corrosion, etc. Oddity? Just asking a question not questioning the info. View Quote |
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Check out this thread. > Link.
A great example of what happens when you use the pin type (secured only by pins through the lugs) vise blocks to install or remove barrel nuts... Three Noveske uppers destroyed so far. Edit: Now he's going to switch to using a Reaction Rod... What a wise choice... |
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