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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:35:22 PM EDT
I wrote this and posted in the LW forum. I spent alot of time putting my thoughts together. I thought I would post it in General discussion, but it got locked in 20 minutes because it said it was a thinly veiled advertisement. I thought this was unfair because I am opening a dialog on my thoughts and observations and I knew I would get flamed, but to lock it and say I am advertising is not true. It would be if I HAD SOMETHING TO SELL! If anything I am selling an idea. POF, LW, HK are on the right track and pistons are a legitimate improvement to the rifle.

Here it is. Lock it, delete it if it is a violation, but I don't see how it is.

Ok, you guys who know me know I was never a fan of the AR/M16 until this LW thing came along. I like shooting the AR and have always had them, but in life and for games, I would not want to use one. Now I am not tactical man, I don't play enough to claim I am any good, and I am likely too crippled to be any good. Iam too busy to partake in lots of gun games, but I do go. Until now, I have never shot an AR in this type of competition. In the past I shot with HK's or FAL's. I always felt a disadvantage during reloads, but always had the advantage of reliability.

So this time my rifle looked like all the rest on the line, only it had a secret little piston gas system under the handguards. The only ammo I had was wolf as my Black hills order did not arrive on time and Wally world was out of 55gr 223. I am sure the wolf would piss off Paul.

In my squad, I believe my 10.5 inch upper was the only one not to malfunction throughout the match of the other AR variants allthough some made it through unscathed. These were not garage guns these guys were shooting. They were colts, et al. No cheap imitations in the mix. After a botched stage because the guy spent half his time clearing malfunctions, everybody would gather around the guy and his gun. 3 guys would say "you need more oil," three others, "its a bad mag." The guy who had the most troubles was running a colt and let me remind you these are not combat conditions. It has become so ingrained in people that this is part and parcel of the game that if the guy has 3 malfs during his run, they will let him go get his "back up gun" and reshoot the stage. WTF? Mulligans in shooting sports?

How could anyone LOVE the ar-15 knowing that it is so sensitive that if it was too dry, or too wet it might not work. Back up rifles? WTF? We did not congregate on the group of people surrounding the malfing rifles to figure out what was wrong. I know what is wrong and I know what would solve it. I did not use it as a sales opportunity, but I think it dawned on a few guys that the damn 10.5 " carbine was more reliable than their 16" colts, bushies, etc.

Personally, I have never had malfunctions in my AR's (impingement). I have kept them clean and loved as I know that is precisely what they need. This was a smorgesborg of malfunctions.

You guys may not know this, but Bushmaster has a rep for a more reliable weapon. You know why? The main reason is that they oversize their gas ports and overgas the weapon to ensure reliability. Is this a bad thing? No, not really. The weapon in theory will have wear issues sooner, the volume of gas and carbon dumped into the reciever is increased. So if you keep it clean, you should get good reliability out of the weapon.

Point 22.5 - What are the factors that could cause a colt to malf so frequently? Is it the rifles fault? Yes. Even if a colt leaves the factory after all of their QI testing. It is tested clean, it is tested with fresh factory mil ball ammo, proven reliable magazines, proper lube. In this scenario, the military accepts 6000 mean rounds to failure. Now throw in some less than stellar ammo. A little dust. Not lubed properly. Whatever. Is this the users fault? You may say it is. Is it? How much of what you do, or what you buy to feed it should be considered acceptable.

My rifle was devoid of lube other than the teflon coating on the bolt carrier and the sandstrom coating LW puts inside the receiver. I was using Wolf ammo. Underpowered, filthy crap with a lacquer coating that melts onto a hot chamber. I also had a 10.5 inch barrel which combined with the other factors could have led to more unreliability. I used Jesse's mags which are always loaded, and look like he found them in a junkyard. We stayed after the match and burned up the remaining ammo. I pulled the bolt carrier out to show a guy, and he was shocked how clean it was. There was some carbon on the bolt face, thats it! No carbon in the tight confines of the bolt carrier bolt interface. He manually cycled his now heavily lubed bolt group and cycled mine. He asked why it seemed so smooth. Well, there is no gas key carbon to fight, there is no carbon inside the bolt carrier group that hinders unlocking, and it is not 2 abrasive surfaces (parked carrier, anodized aluminum) dragging on each other. The piston nozzle was as clean as when we started as it is continually scraping the carbon from the inside of the cup and blowing it clear with the next round.

My point is, that after 40 years of service, somehow our paradigm about why weapons work or don't has been shifted to the user. The Brits keep doing this with the SA80. Keep blaming the troops, or call a particular weapon a lemon. Blame the shitty ammo. Blame everything but the inherent design of the rifle.

I am going to give you an example of an AK. Have you seen those video clips from africa of those folks dancing around doing wild mag dumps at the enemy? Those rifles are held together with bubble gum and tape. They are as rusty as a boat ancor. Maintenece? I doubt it. Probably some motor oil and a wipe down. My point is not that the AK is the be all and end all. My point is that it was designed around the shorcomings of who would be using it or maintaining it, the variance of ammo available, and the different environments it would be used. It is loose, over gassed, and by gum factory AK's seem to work regardless of the user.

AK and AR are 2 completely different concepts. The AK is a minute of man gun. Designed primarily for area suppressive fire in massive frontal attacks on defensive positions by Russian Mechanized infantry. The first position on the selector is AUTO if that tells you anything. The AR is more of a precision affair. Our technology allows us to manufacture mass quantities of rifles that adhere to very tight tolerences with unmatched repeatability. There are definately a first world weapon. They are capable of 1 MOA. The magic formula for a reliable AR is a 20 inch barrel and a rifle length gas system. Even at that they are very susceptable to carbon build up, dirt and debris. They actually become more reliable the more they are shot and cleaned as tolerences loosen, the gas rings become wear fit, and all the leaks in the gas system get plugged with carbon.

The LW and other piston systems on AR's go along way in solving design problems that the user is held accountable for. I can only speak with authority on the LW rifle. Reports on the others seem to jive in the same direction. On the LW; It solves the carbon in the action problem. It solves the break in problem as it has a gas system that is essentially air tight until full vent and thus only uses 5% of tapped gas by volume. 100% of the pressure is used to get the carrier to inertia required for a full consistent stroke, once there, the gas is dumped abruptly. This all occurs with less than 3/4 " of piston movement.

It provides for easier opening of the action. In the impingement gun the gas goes down into the key into a gas chamber. The gas presses the carrier to unlock and back toward the bolt as well. This provides for an effective delay, but makes for more required gas and energy to open. Once unlocked the pressure is releived through the carrier ports. The point is the LW has much more positive extraction as the force needed to unlock is less, the bullet has left the barrel and it unlocks and extracts with no opposing forces.

They have solved the lube problem. The weapon can be run completely dry thus not allowing dirt and dust to collect. Any carbon present from the chamber can't stick to the teflon in the sandstrom. It eliminates the probems of gas tubes that don't properly interface with the key.

It solves the problem of pressure curves required in SBR's. It solves the problem of ammo sensitivity and use of non standard propellants. Imagine if LW AR's were used in the beginning of Vietnam. They used the wrong propellant in the ammo supplied and troops died because the weapons were sensitive to the use of different propellants. Other issues in play as well like chromed chambers etc. but those guys were sacrificed by a design flaw that still exists today yet we make sure the correct propellants are used.

Before I got on this rant, my main goal was to tell you that mulligans in shooting sports should not be acceptable. After all, these sports are supposed to mirror real scenarios. If thats the case, lots of those guys at that tach match would be dead. I don't know what ISSUEs their weapons had nor did I care, because I knew not much was gonna stop my little LW. And this has been our experience ever since we had the opportunity to shoot these. Yes, someone will tell me their AR shot 10 K rounds without maintenece. Good for you! Too bad every last one of them doesn't do that.

Jesse ran our shorty AK on Auto most of the match. He had one stoppage and it was related to a spent casing bouncing off the barricaid back into the action. It works great, however the AK handguards are not up to the task. The cocking handle would also get so hot you could hardly cock it. Changing mags is a pain in the ass.

To alter your paradigm about maintenence, let me refer you to Ol'Dirty on my website....

www.grenadierprecision.com/oldirty.html

This is my opinion. I have thought about this since the late 80's when we received the C7 in the CF. There have been other piston systems that did fall by the wayside as they were not properly engineered, executed or tested. The 3 main piston weapons on the market today all have advantages over inpingement in my opinion. Each has slight idiosyncratic differences that may give one a slight advantage over the other. I am biased toward one, and can give you reasons why, but they are irrellivant to these observations and purely theoretical as I have not had access to the other 2. Any of the 3 on the market would fare better than any impingement guns.

I hope you can open your minds and not discount what I have to say just because you are happy with your AR's. But understand, you have adjusted your Paradigm of what a rifle needs to make sure it goes bang every time and therefore many of you will be biased in favor of your impingement guns that have served you well in whatever capacity you use them for. You should be the weakest link in your rifle system. I am not advocating no maintenence, or abuse, but if you are the most important link in your systems reliability, there is something that can and has been improved.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 3:24:38 PM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 3:50:43 PM EDT
Can I say it too? IBTL!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 3:51:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 3:51:37 PM EDT by Schulze]
IBTL

My first one ever, I swear to Sgtr1a5
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:05:28 PM EDT
If I am in violation, please tell me so I can delete it myself. I have nothing to sell.

I don't want to piss anyone off. I think they are valid points. Technical discussion.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:19:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:34:09 PM EDT

As a user of the AR system in both civilian and military, I have just not had any problems with the gas tube design, as far as reliability.

My AKs jam way more than my ARs.

The main benefit to the gas piston is going to be ease of cleaning. I don't expect a huge reliability improvement. How can you improve on a non-existent problem?

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 4:42:57 PM EDT by tangeant]
It's probably better here than GD.

Other than that the vast majority of AR shooters who don't use junk mags, garbage ammo and cheap chinese AR parts don't seem to have had any problems with the AR system as is and don't see the need to piss $ away on a piston upper gimmick.

TAC-3 gun shooters are notorious for fucking with thier AR's to the point of unreliability and no sane person would use them or thier highly modified guns as evidence that the AR is a POS.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:14:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:15:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:22:13 PM EDT
48

Great and thoughtful post. I know that with my shorty uppers (running on RR's), that even with factory ammo, clean and lubed, that I'll have problems with at least one of the uppers.

I think RIGHT now is a GREAT time for firearms owners. There is so much new stuff being developed for us. Everything from Lakeside's 22; the piston uppers, SOCOM's finally getting NFA approval on the Mac rebuilds. It's a great time.

I will be getting a POF and LW.

ALso, would you please get with Frank and find out if your rail will work. I am holding off getting a POF until I can get the rail system I want. I like your rail.

FAL's rule!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:44:57 PM EDT
Locked? Why? If one cannot post their opinion or information about an AR-15 type system with fear of reprisal then why does this website even exsist? I love shooting these type weapons and shoot both POF piston and gas, both are great fun, I also enjoy reading thoughts and facts positive and negitive about our beloved black rifles. However, I have noticed a trend forming on many of the discussions to shut down people and their opinions without looking at the message. Maybe it's like 48th said "paradigm" , or more than likely it makes some people feel better about themselves to degrade another poster. Just an observation....
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:48:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 5:48:30 PM EDT by Rabbit9]
I have been running our local Tactical Rifle matches for the last couple of years. I can only remember one (1) failure. That failure was caused by one of the competitors that decided to use his custom chambered High Power competition gun with cheap mil-surp ammunition. Of the many thousands of rounds I have shot through 10.5" - 18" barreled AR's, I have never had a failure. The AR has proven itself reliable to my satisfaction, YMMV.

And since somebody else mentioned it, and because it was not what I expected, I have seen the FAL prove itself as a very UNRELIABLE weapon. I cannot remember a single match that one of our FAL shooters has not had a malfunction, and several where the gun was rendered completely inoperable. We chided one of our shooters as having an "FALintlock"
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:56:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 5:58:19 PM EDT by KnobCreek]
ARs are unreliable......AR has never failed me
AK's just go bang forever.......AK is the only gun that ever jammed on me
FAL never stops shootin............FAL seems to be quite unreliable


...and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on.................

I love them all.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:04:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MP906:
As a user of the AR system in both civilian and military, I have just not had any problems with the gas tube design, as far as reliability.

My AKs jam way more than my ARs.

The main benefit to the gas piston is going to be ease of cleaning. I don't expect a huge reliability improvement. How can you improve on a non-existent problem?





You need to get your AK fixed.......PERIOD

Right now the top tier units in our military have HK 416s and appear to be very impressed by them, other than a little excess weight out front.

Say what you want, but I believe the gas piston AR will become more common in the US military, in a trickle down effect.

Sure, I've got two Les Baer ARs which have NEVER failed despite heaps of abuse AND Wolf ball...but that does not prove that the system as a whole is superior to a piston system for straight reliability.

We live in interesting times, interesting to watch how things play out........

and yes, AK forends get very hot when pushed......I hate it when they suddenly burst into flames....
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:08:14 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:

You need to get your AK fixed.......PERIOD

Right now the top tier units in our military have HK 416s and appear to be very impressed by them, other than a little excess weight out front.

Say what you want, but I believe the gas piston AR will become more common in the US military, in a trickle down effect.

Sure, I've got two Les Baer ARs which have NEVER failed despite heaps of abuse AND Wolf ball...but that does not prove that the system as a whole is superior to a piston system for straight reliability.

We live in interesting times, interesting to watch how things play out........

and yes, AK forends get very hot when pushed......I hate it when they suddenly burst into flames....[/



You ain't kiddin'.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:08:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:09:52 PM EDT
Interesting. I have good and bad luck with all platforms. Some guns are just better than others.
I would like to try a LW in the future.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:13:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usma89:
Interesting. I have good and bad luck with all platforms. Some guns are just better than others.
I would like to try a LW in the future.



+1...EXACTLY MY EXPERIENCE.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:14:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usma89:
Interesting. I have good and bad luck with all platforms. Some guns are just better than others.
I would like to try a LW in the future.



usma89,

What's your 20? If your ever in the San Antonio/Hondo area look us up, we'll let you play with some LW toys.

Jesse
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:27:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:28:30 PM EDT by mongo001]
Why IBTL? Because he took a couple of jabs at the Holy Grail of ARs -> Colt? Or he took a jab or two at the AR platform itself? He's not saying anything outside of the reality that the AR system has been over time, more or less. This is, more or less, the AR vs. AK argument that has been rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over................................

His experience, in general, doesn't reflect what I see in ARs during classes and competition, so take his writeup for what it's worth. But on the other hand, I personally would never take a factory monkey built rifle into a competition or carbine class. I'd also ensure the setup, including the mags, was up to the job before stepping onto the range. My Frankenguns work fine for whatever I want them to do. I haven't had any malfunctions to speak of in some time. They aren't perfect, I'll never claim that, but they are pretty damn close. And I probably feed a wider range of ammo through my rifles than most here. TIFWIW.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:31:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:36:46 PM EDT by Gunwritr]
If it's made by man it can, and probably at the most inopportune time, will fail....

I was on the 600 yard line at Perry a couple weeks back and I scored as a competitor drilled the X ring with a NM M14. Guy was just in the groove, pounding the spotting disc....then his extractor blew out on round 8...he spent the rest of the string digging his empties out with his car keys....M14s are esteemed for their reliability....but anyone who has spent time around them knows they puke extractors now and again.

FALs? Most often problem you see with a FAL is operator error concerning the gas setting...but they can and do fail, and they tend to vibrate loose anything bolted onto to them.....like the rear sight...heard about it from Brits who carried L1A1s but didn't believe it til it happened to me....

AKs? Naw man, those are perfect.......... (Hey it's my dream, leave me alone)

I could be wrong, but I suspect you will see a trickle down effect with piston M16s just like has happened with many things before it, from ACOGs to Gore-Tex. The top tier unit that is not mentioned plays with them, then other units see them and want them, and then the Rangers get them....then the Airborne divisions and 10th, eventually everyone has them.....

Personally, I think it will be a good thing. All I want is for our military to have the best, and to stay cutting edge.

ragheads with AKs don't worry me.........

but there is a country in the Orient with their eye on us...when they decide they want to dance we need to kick their ass good......
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:47:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:21:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:06:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:14:37 PM EDT

Orig by LeitnerWise

No. Because the previous piston systems didn't work or offer the same performance.




Paul,
Can you elaborate a bit further? I have a few shooting buddies that are all over the "been there done that" argument regarding the gas piston AR design. I'd like to be able to educate myself and them a bit more on the evolution.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:23:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:31:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 8:32:59 PM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
Previous piston designs failed to deal with two crucial issues; weight and carrier lift. The first issue related to the design and construction of the operating system and the second failed to address the dynamics of the straight-line design of the AR system suddenly having to deal with operating forces above the centerline causing a force to vector through the unsupported area of the carrier resulting in sheared carrier keys and or bolt bounce and other problems.

Modern designs address materials and dynamic forces giving a reliable alternative to the direct impingement system.



.....no, that's not it. ...hmmmm vector, no not that either.

Ah, did I mention I only speak Spanish and English.


Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:05:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:09:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:11:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it!



What do yo mean, no Wolf? Being able to shoot the cheap shit is exactly why I want the LW system. Re-effin-liability No Wolf.....come on!!!! I'll save the Q3131A and Lake City for SHTF, end of world scenarios.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:12:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
KnobCreek, the op rod causes the bolt carrier to lift up at the front unless you deal with this. This happens because the op rod is above the bolt carrier and the action spring. Any help?

I'm going to bed now.



Much better. Good night
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:28:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it!



I'll let this stand as one of the most ironic things I've read in the piston/impingement arguments.

What good is the piston upper, if you still have to baby it?

I'm going on 15,000 rounds of Wolf polymer through 3 garden-variety gas run AR's, without a single failure, issue or problem. Sometimes I'll run 1,000 rounds without anything but a squirt of CLP on the carrier.

Again, what is the benefit of this magic piston?? Accuracy? Looks? Reliability? Sure, as long as you don't feed it what my AR's eat like candy.

I see. Where do I send my $$?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 9:41:55 PM EDT by Hired_Gun]
My job allows me a carbine AR15 on certain occasions, so my choice was a 16" RRA which is pampered for the very reasons 48th said. The AR15 is a picky weapon that can be and is known to be very sensitive to how it is treated. It's tolerences are very tight and exact and it doesnt take something big to be off for the gun to become difficult.

48th is right about the backup gun. Odds are if you need one in the worst way you're dead or even worse, your client is dead

PDW style AR15's are common in the private security business, but I've seen them fail far too many times to trust them. I opted for a company provided semi P90 and Glock 19. When I was with TNT I had an MP5 and I loved it because it was a tank and loved abuse and full auto dumps without breaking a sweat. But what I really want is a more robust PDW style AR15 that will be just as compact as my P90 but without the spotty AR15 fickleness. I want the RRA power, but with a 16" barrel it's too conspicuous for concealed carry and too long to operate from inside an SUV

And the AR15 direct gas is an experimental concept that stuck, but it didnt replace pistons or render them obselete

And I will say that while I have always liked the AR15, I've always hated its action. How anyone can think blasting fouling all over the action is an okay thing is beyond me. Yes it can work just fine but it isnt the smartest thing. cleaner bolt and internals, cleaner action overall

BUT...I think any of these piston systems are far too new to be trusted in life or death situations. I wouldnt replace my FN or RRA with one. In time maybe, but it takes more than some interweb forum endorsments for me to risk my life with one...

I'll stick with standard direct gas technology for now...
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:11:49 PM EDT
Did somebody say..."PISTON"?

This is me on my '03 Suzuki Hayabusa....



it requires more care and maint. than my wifes oddysey mini-van...as it's valves need to be inspected and adjusted every 15K miles...fortunantly for me I know when that care and maint. needs to be addressed....and I keep a few valve shims and oil filters on hand for just such occassions...why do I put up with such frequent required maint. you ask?...because...my wifes minivan just dosen't have the same "Performance Potential"....like speed...my Hayabusa will do close to 200mph...my wifes minivan?...might break 100 with a good tailwind...or handling...my Busa will take a curve with confidence at 2-3X's the posted...my wifes minivan?...feels like it might roll if your 10mph over....and that's just a few reasons why I put up with the high maint. of my busa...oh...I forgot....we're talking AK's VS AR's here....aren't we?

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:13:12 PM EDT
Good read. Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:14:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 10:15:31 PM EDT by SNorman]
Usually the people arguing against the AR15 system do so only because they are emotionally attached to something else. If you make a solid argument for your belief, fine but I see too much of this:

- AR15 sucks because its clearances are "too tight" and jams if any dirt so much as looks in its direction... yet a gas piston which doesn't change this at all is supposed to make the weapon almost 100% reliable.

- There are too many parts in the AR15... except there aren't, because of the simple gas mechanism, but adding a gas piston system and its parts is somehow OK because the number of parts doesn't matter as long as you find them cool.

Seems to me most AR15/M16 jams are magazine related (worn/cracked feed lips causing double feeds). A gas piston won't help that.


Anyway, as soon as complete gas piston uppers start selling for $400 I'll go ahead and try one
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:16:38 PM EDT
silly me....and here I thought it was..."all in the tuning".
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:42:06 PM EDT


I'll let this stand as one of the most ironic things I've read in the piston/impingement arguments.



Relax - It runs fine on wolf. He is just sensitive because he sees each one as one of his babies. In other words, life is too short to use cheap ammo. If you actually read my post, the point I made was it shouldn't matter what you feed it, it should work; and it does. I would place my 10.5 up against any impingement AR out there.

What makes you think anyone cares what you do with your money. Seems to be a common theme around here. Go buy whatever you want. It is yours not mine.

Thanks for all your imput into the discussion everyone. I personally value all the imput, especially those with lots of hands on experience. The motorcycle analogy is not really of value. Are you saying you get more performance out of a highly maintained AR than a sig 550?

Anyway, I am open to learn more. Alot of valid points. For the closed minds, say prove it. Wander over to LW or POF or HK and see for yourself.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 2:43:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it!



I'm having trouble seeing if there is any sarcasm in this statement or not. If not, it worries me that the creator of this system would say that. Wolf is the baseline for alot of things I do. It's nasty, underpowered ammo is perfect for stressing an iffy system. If it can pass the Wolf test, it's good to go. If it can't pass Wolf, it still needs work. But that's just my builds.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:22:24 AM EDT
I was in the ARFCOM LW Group Buy for a upper reciever, due to timing issues I droped from the buy. That said I am still interested in your product. Having used both M16 and M4 platforms extensively with very little issue during my service, there is always room for improvement.

Gas pistons are in use in many rifles currently with notable reliablity and while the m16 gas system has has given most little issue, could it be made better? I mean nothing more then to give my opinion on this since its under debate. If you had the money to spend on it would you put a piston system on your upper, LW or otherwise?

LW (Paull)we need some things from you. In my opinion.

1. Update your website with, heavy tests and reviews of your product. Order info on convesrions, uppers, and rifles. We will come.

2. Advertise where able on this site. Yet DO NOT contribute here addressing flames and defending your company, It is a battle that cannot be won and makes you look bad trying.

Thats it.

I think you have something special, I think that the military will intigrate a piston system to the M16/M4. It will start up top in small numbers and filter down. Improvement in combat effectiveness is what commanders get paid to insure.

All that said, I expect a discount on a conversion now
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:29:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
Did somebody say..."PISTON"?

This is me on my '03 Suzuki Hayabusa....
fz1gear.com/Busburn2.jpg




Dayum!!

about the same velocity as 5.56mm, too!

Oh, and back to the topic.....

I'm thinking I will try the L-W upper or conversion on one of my rigs to see what all the buzz is about.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:05:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:16:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:17:13 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I smell Bull shit.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:23:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:26:14 AM EDT by none_other]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I smell Bull shit.



In what way? Thats a fairly smelly statement!


ETA: until we have solid reviews and shit, why are so many anti piston? its not fucking rocket science to understand how firearms work and how they can work better. Im give em a chance, nothing more.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:38:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it!



I'm having trouble seeing if there is any sarcasm in this statement or not. If not, it worries me that the creator of this system would say that. Wolf is the baseline for alot of things I do. It's nasty, underpowered ammo is perfect for stressing an iffy system. If it can pass the Wolf test, it's good to go. If it can't pass Wolf, it still needs work. But that's just my builds.



I take the opposite position, if a build runs 100 percent with Wolf then there is something wrong. Exception would be early rifles intended to run on lower port pressure (ie edgewater spring guide).
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:48:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 7:08:27 AM EDT by photoman]
Hmm piston systems I'm sure are nice, but I've not had any problems with the current system to change over. You make it sound like no AR can opperate reliably if it doesn't ahve a piston system in it. Which is not the case at all.


And ya it does kinda sound like and advertisement. ETA: don't mean that like your trying to hide an advertisment some way, but it just kinda sounds like one.

So just in case, IBTL
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:21:52 AM EDT
Excellent post 48th! Very well stated, with a clear point.

I was surprised the other day at the range when my Norinco AKM-47S failed a couple times, then jammed up TIGHT! Then my underfolder started hiccoughing, but it worked itself out. Of course, my brand new AR worked fine... until the spent casing stuck SOLID in the hot chamber... Firearms suck!

Oh, and those AK forearms sure do get hot! I bubbled up the laminate finish on my new underfolder!! You should have seen the smoke coming from between the guards.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:31:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I smell Bull shit.



And this insight is helpful to anybody buy YOU how?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
One more thing, if you spend this much money on a piston system, don't run Wolf through it!



I'm having trouble seeing if there is any sarcasm in this statement or not. If not, it worries me that the creator of this system would say that. Wolf is the baseline for alot of things I do. It's nasty, underpowered ammo is perfect for stressing an iffy system. If it can pass the Wolf test, it's good to go. If it can't pass Wolf, it still needs work. But that's just my builds.



I take the opposite position, if a build runs 100 percent with Wolf then there is something wrong. Exception would be early rifles intended to run on lower port pressure (ie edgewater spring guide).



I guess I need to finish my statement, then. Wolf testing is a minimum basline testing for gas function and a maximum for dirt and filth. If it runs on Wolf, it will run on cleaner, stronger ammo.

I don't see how you think if a rifle will run 100% on Wolf, that it won't run 100% on higher quality ammo.
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