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Posted: 7/20/2009 11:28:38 AM EST
I went to the range yesterday with my AR;( Bushmaster lower and Armalite upper.)
This is the only AR I have ever fired.
My friend showed up with his new colt (upper & lower). The only visible difference was that his barrel was much slimmer than mine.
Then we got to firing them, and there seemed to be a vast difference in triggers
The Colt trigger seemed heavy and stiff as compared to the Bushy which was smooth and light.
My friend was really disapointed in his after he tried mine.
My question is: Is this normal for both these lowers?
also my Bushy has "Govt. and Law enforcement use only" on it; Does this mean something as to a difference in the trigger group?
Just curious......Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 11:47:41 AM EST
the colt trigger should smooth out a little with use, also helps to oil or grease the trigger and hammer pins. However, it's designed to be a reliable fighting trigger, not a nice crisp match trigger.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:10:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:11:39 PM EST by oneshot_onekill]
No 2 rifles are the same. Even within the same brand... which I know yours are not. The differences in a Colt vs a Bushmaster can't really be readily seen at first glance. The difference would be seen in the long term. Bushmaster is not a bad AR but Colt is a better AR. Better built, with better materials, better QC. For the average "plinker" a Bushmaster is all the rifle you'll ever need. The Colt is built to much higher standards to withstand many thousands of rounds in very harsh conditions. It's like driving a Humm-V vs driving a Tahoe. On the street the Tahoe is fine and kicks the Humm-v's ass as far as speed, comfort and performance... But put both in extreme conditions and the HummV shines... out-performs and out-lasts the Tahoe. FWIW
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:17:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:21:14 PM EST by ExEagle]
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:25:11 PM EST
I've got my popcorn and a drink ready.......let's hear it.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:25:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:27:42 PM EST by oneshot_onekill]
Just re-read the OP. The upper is Armalite.

Now I think I'll just sit back and watch as the rest of this forum closes in for the kill...

Hmmm... 187 posts. took me til well over 200 to realize the error in my ways
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:28:13 PM EST
You must all be COLT owners, huh?
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:30:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:31:05 PM EST by oneshot_onekill]
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
You must all be COLT owners, huh?

Not me... I have 4 Spikes Tacticals, an Armalite and a POF. I just learned the hard way!

Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:34:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:38:12 PM EST by JonLSU]
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
You must all be COLT owners, huh?


I have two 6920's, but I have also had two bushy's, a RRA, and a stag. Can't say I had the first problem with any of them. All great rifles depending on the purpose they were used for. When my life depends on it at work, I know which one out of the above I will choose.
I know this chart will pop up in a minute, so I'll go ahead and post it first.
comparison chart
Also...FYI, colt's now have standard size trigger pins

As far as the trigger is concerned, I would agree. My bushy's trigger was a little softer than my colts. But my colt is for defense, not for match shooting. I use a jewell trigger in my target upper.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:35:31 PM EST

As a Bushmaster owner, I can say that the trigger on it is very nice right out of the box. Very smooth and crisp. No idea about triggers on Colts, but I know a lot of people (non Bushmaster owners most likely) will chime in saying that Bushmaster couldn't possibly be better than a Colt in any respect. Don't discount it simply because it isn't a Colt.

YMMV
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 1:23:48 PM EST
Colt uses 4150 barrel steel, chrome lined
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:18:16 PM EST
As far as barrel steel goes the only time it matters weather your using 4140 or 4150 is in belt fed machine guns and then only when the barrel is hot enough glow.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:26:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 2:26:55 PM EST by Captains1911]
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


wrong and wrong.

I'm off to get my popcorn.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:26:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By JonLSU:
I've got my popcorn and a drink ready.......let's hear it.


uh, wanna pass the nacho's over before this gets out of hand..........
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:42:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt.

Even if what you say is true (which I don't believe it is), any difference in those two steels would not be noticeable or effect performance in any way. And besides that, judging an entire rifle to be less durable than another based solely on the slight difference between 4150 and 4140 barrel steel makes no sense unless the only failure point possible was barrel failure.

Personally, I've never heard of an AR failing to operate because its barrel suddenly exploded or melted or fell off or any of the other terrible things you seem to be implying could happen based on the differences between 4140 steel and 4150 steel. Usually, it is something else that fails and it is the construction material and build tolerances of those components that you should be looking at.

Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:46:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening
Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube

Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:50:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.





wow your ignorance on the subject staggers the imagination! oh, or is that sarcasm? I hope so casue I cant see anyone being so blissfully incorrect
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 3:09:04 PM EST
There's no block in the trigger group on a Colt. Some past models had a sear block in the rear of the lower receiver which prevented the installation of a drop in auto sear but it had nothing to do with the FCG. present models have a web of metal across that area for the same purpose, but has nothing to do with the fire control group.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 3:11:50 PM EST
holy cow, now we are comparing the exact grade of steel? It wasn't good enough to have 4150 steel, now we have to have a certain grade of 4150 steel just to piss on the "other guy"

shit why stop there, lets get into the molecular make up of the friggin steel.
man, this thread went full really fast
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 3:12:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


I don't think I've ever seen one post containing so much mis-information.

You win the the prize.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 3:46:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


I'm not gonna dog pile but you don't know, what you don't know.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 4:33:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By JonLSU:
I've got my popcorn and a drink ready.......let's hear it.


This one is just barely heated up. Should boil soon enough.

Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:04:52 PM EST
I would love to have a Colt. But if I'm gonna throw out that much money for an AR15, I'll save up a little more and get a Noveske or LaRue.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:19:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


I forgive you then
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:23:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By BR870:
They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.


is this right? I just sold a bushmaster M4 which was 1/7 and clearly said B MP 1/7 on the barrel.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:30:36 PM EST
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:34:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By mykrowyre:
Originally Posted By BR870:
They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.


is this right? I just sold a bushmaster M4 which was 1/7 and clearly said B MP 1/7 on the barrel.


Mine has a BM 1/7 barrel on it as well, but in all fairness it is a repalcement barrel.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:35:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:40:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 5:42:56 PM EST by mathecb]
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:46:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:50:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 5:52:06 PM EST by mathecb]
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:55:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:56:07 PM EST
I guess I stirred up a hornets nest!
I do appreciate all the info though.........Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 5:59:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.


than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:06:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red


There is a difference for wear due to use and failure due to lack of testing...

Because a bolt isn't MPI/HPT, you can't say its failure after an unknown number of rounds is due to that.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:06:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 6:10:46 PM EST by mathecb]
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.


than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red


I guess so. Please post which part broke and due to what.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:09:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 6:10:02 PM EST by LoganSackett]
Originally Posted By mmargotta:
I guess I stirred up a hornets nest!
I do appreciate all the info though.........Thanks!


Happens all the time. In response to your original question, Bushmaster has some great triggers. I really like mine. I don't know if they're usually much better than Colt, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:12:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.


than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red


I guess so. Please post which part broke and due to what.


I shouldn't have to, but here are few:

"Hobby guns
Generally ok, but non MPI bolts may not last (we see less problems with breaking lately) and some of the new guns may not work at all. These should not have to be shot in- they should work out of the box.
Chambers are often 223, no matter what is marked on the barrel. When the gun gets hot, extraction slows down."

"Do high rates of fire cause bolts to break?
Good question. I know from M4A1 use that a harsh firing schedule will mean bolt lugs will break sooner then later.
Having said that, aftermarket hobby gun parts (bolts that are not shot peened and MPI) may break at the cam pin hole much sooner then that.
I have seen hobby bolts break in less then 500 rounds. I have also seen them break at 10,000 rounds."
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:23:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 6:26:28 PM EST by mathecb]
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.


than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red


I guess so. Please post which part broke and due to what.


I shouldn't have to, but here are few:

"Hobby guns
Generally ok, but non MPI bolts may not last (we see less problems with breaking lately) and some of the new guns may not work at all. These should not have to be shot in- they should work out of the box.
Chambers are often 223, no matter what is marked on the barrel. When the gun gets hot, extraction slows down."

"Do high rates of fire cause bolts to break?
Good question. I know from M4A1 use that a harsh firing schedule will mean bolt lugs will break sooner then later.
Having said that, aftermarket hobby gun parts (bolts that are not shot peened and MPI) may break at the cam pin hole much sooner then that.
I have seen hobby bolts break in less then 500 rounds. I have also seen them break at 10,000 rounds."


May not work.....May not last......May break.....May work........
Still not seeing what I asked for.
(Specific events) And even if there is one, thats still almost nothing, which does not prove anything.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:30:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Standing by. Finger on the lock button.....

We'll let it run a little longer.


I think you can stick a fork in this one............It's done
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:35:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By BR870:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Wow...

First off, Colt has the Mil Standard B11595E steel for the barrel. This is a specific grade of CMV 4150, and is the exact same grade as the Military M4 steel. Bushy use standard 4150, but not B11595E. So you got that one wrong...

Second, Colt no longer uses large pins so try again. All current Colts use standard .154" pins...

Bushy does NOT use proper barrel steel. Bushy uses weaker Bolt steel (8620 as opposed to the correct Carpenter 158). Bushy doesn't MPI the bolt. Bushy doesn't HPT their bolt or barrel. Bushy doesn't shot peen the bolt. Bushy doesn't use the proper extractor or an extractor insert with the proper durometer rating. They use a 1:9" twist and do not park under the FSB. They do not Stake the Castle Nut and use a weaker Commercial Buffer Tube.

So lets see Bushy cuts corners in the following areas:

Bolt Steel
MPI
HPT
Shot Peening

Extractor
Park under the FSB
Commercial Buffer Tube


Yeah, alot better than Colt. Not only were you WRONG about your two gripes about Colt (4140 barrel and large pins), but you left out a crap ton of stuff Bushy cuts corners on...


Show me a thread where any of these cause problems. Short stroking and feeding issues are most of what you hear about. If Colt wants to PROVE to be the best they need to put out rifles that have absolutely 0 problems not related to parts testing.......which is not really a problem in the first place.
Im not saying colt isn't the best im just saying that they cant be "more reliable" because of those things. Especially barrel steel and park under FSB.
Call Colt and ask how many parts they turn down due to testing......Im sure you wont get an honest answer.


here's the thread you requested: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169


That dosn't show anything other than common breakage of parts. Nothing to do with what I requested. If you know of something specific please post it. I have never heard of a failure caused by the above in red.


than you have reading problems, the very first page mentions items you have highlighted in red


I guess so. Please post which part broke and due to what.


I shouldn't have to, but here are few:

"Hobby guns
Generally ok, but non MPI bolts may not last (we see less problems with breaking lately) and some of the new guns may not work at all. These should not have to be shot in- they should work out of the box.
Chambers are often 223, no matter what is marked on the barrel. When the gun gets hot, extraction slows down."

"Do high rates of fire cause bolts to break?
Good question. I know from M4A1 use that a harsh firing schedule will mean bolt lugs will break sooner then later.
Having said that, aftermarket hobby gun parts (bolts that are not shot peened and MPI) may break at the cam pin hole much sooner then that.
I have seen hobby bolts break in less then 500 rounds. I have also seen them break at 10,000 rounds."


May not work.....May not last......May break.....May work........
Still not seeing what I asked for.
(Specific events) And even if there is one, thats still almost nothing, which does not prove anything.


Those quotes come from one of the most prolific AR instructors in the country. He sees and logs 100s of thousands of rds down range a year. Why don't you take the time to read through the first 10 pages of that thread he linked to. He very clearly lays out the difference...

...If you don't get it after that I can't help you. Pearls before swine and all that...
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:41:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jeep297:
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


I forgive you then


I don't, that was the most inaccurate post I've read all year.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:46:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 6:50:10 PM EST by QuadBomb]
Originally Posted By oneshot_onekill:
It's like driving a Humm-V vs driving a Tahoe. On the street the Tahoe is fine and kicks the Humm-v's ass as far as speed, comfort and performance... But put both in extreme conditions and the HummV shines... out-performs and out-lasts the Tahoe. FWIW



Clearly you have no experience with the HMMWV. You must be thinking of a Hummer H1.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:53:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 6:56:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686


Yes, fit and finish are paramount!

Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:10:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686


You are probably correct, but they cut almost every other corner possible besides having decent barrels.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:12:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686


Yes, fit and finish are paramount!



Where did I mention "fit and finish". Oh, I didnt. We are talking QC. So you have to make something up and put words in my mouth. No integrity.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:13:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By ExEagle:
Forgive me if i am wrong but doesn't the bushmaster have a barrel made of 4150 steel and the colt is made of the LESS durable 4140 steel. If i am right...and i think i am, then that would mean that the bushmaster is made to be more durable than the colt. And also, aside from the short front sight post, i dont know of anything the colt has over bushmaster when it comes to being as close to mil spec as possible. The colt has oversized pins, a block in the trigger group that will not permit it going full auto, and inferior barrel material. I know colt MPI's every bolt. Not that big of a deal considering i don't hear many stories of BCG's blowing up. But it is a plus for colt.

And i have yet to shoot an out of the box AR with a trigger that is even close to the smoothness of a bushmaster. I know some will say the RRA 2 stage is better but i hear a lot of people say that after 1000 rds or so it basically becomes a one stage.


Jesus, dude, you're making the rest of Arkansas look bad with this shit. Seriously.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:14:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686


Yes, fit and finish are paramount!



Where did I mention "fit and finish". Oh, I didnt. We are talking QC. So you have to make something up and put words in my mouth. No integrity.


Which part of cosmetic issues that don't affect function are not QC issues to Colt didn't you grasp?
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:15:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:

As a Bushmaster owner, I can say that the trigger on it is very nice right out of the box. Very smooth and crisp. No idea about triggers on Colts, but I know a lot of people (non Bushmaster owners most likely) will chime in saying that Bushmaster couldn't possibly be better than a Colt in any respect. Don't discount it simply because it isn't a Colt.

YMMV


One of my M4s has a bushmaster bbl. The other M4 has a colt bbl. I will state, for the record, that Colt is better and unlike many, I do own both.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 7:15:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Originally Posted By ACOGless:
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
Which AR is better is due to propaganda & advertising which ARF COM is a big part of. People are going to choose Colt just because the military uses it. That is all the advertising they need.


So the extra QC steps that Colt does over BM is just propaganda??? Look that QC might not be worth an extra $200 or whatever to you but don't pretend that it does not exist. Botttom line is BM is cheaper because they use cheaper materials with less QC, not that the ARFCOM fan boys have pushed their prices that much higher.


Here is your quality control. I bet a Bushmaster has never left like that and the make 5 times the amount of rifles.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686


Yes, fit and finish are paramount!



Where did I mention "fit and finish". Oh, I didnt. We are talking QC. So you have to make something up and put words in my mouth. No integrity.


Yeah, and you used fit and finish as your one and only example for QC. So that's why you got that response. You didn't mention fit and finish but you linked to it. No one put any words in your mouth.
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