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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/7/2006 7:09:08 AM EDT
Is Q3131 the same as Q3131A. I know one is made in Israel and loaded to full power.

Is the US Q3131 also full power 5.56 ammo?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:10:38 AM EDT
No, the Israeli made Q3131A is hotter.

Mike
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:42:29 AM EDT
Ammo Oracle says they are the same.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:00:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:00:58 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
IN one area it equates them as the same... your correct, but I have shot them both and the "A" Israeli made, is hotter ammo, IMO.

The ammo faq also states this:

Q. Holy ear-ache Batman! This Q3131A/Lake City XM193 is really loud and it launches a FIREBALL from my muzzle! Everyone at the range is looking at me now. What gives?

Yep.

Q3131A and XM193 are Mil-Spec M193. They mean business. They are loaded hotter than most commercial loads and you're likely to notice that as soon as you fire them--especially out of a 16" post-ban barrel without a flash hider, you are going to get quite a bit of blast and a fireball. Some M193 may have flash retardant, but it's just no match for a short barrel without a hider. Prepare yourself for surgery on your ears if you have one of those short barrels and a muzzle brake. Always wear eye and ear protection when shooting!



At one point in time I believe they were loaded the same, but the few Q3131 boxes I have left laying around are not as hot as the Q3131A I stock, hence my comment above....

Mike
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:02:28 AM EDT
I thought I heard something about a new Q3131 that was just like the "a".
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:44:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bryan:
Is the US Q3131 also full power 5.56 ammo?



Yes. It meets M193 spec.

The 'A' version is made by IMI and seems to have better QC, but I did some Chrono tests a few years back and it varried by lot which was hotter (Q3131 or Q3131A) but both met the spec for M193.

(well except for that one lot of Q3131 I picked up in 1999 that was running well OVER spec - up to 150fps faster IIRC).
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:47:56 AM EDT
When I shoot XM193 or Q3131A out of a 14 1/2" equiped with a Izzy I wear ear plugs and muffs. Not to mention the fireball. I have had experienced shooters ask me if I was shooting over presssure reloads.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:14:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:
When I shoot XM193 or Q3131A out of a 14 1/2" equiped with a Izzy I wear ear plugs and muffs. Not to mention the fireball. I have had experienced shooters ask me if I was shooting over presssure reloads.



ARE YOU KIDDING!? Man I need to try a box of this stuff. I'm shooting Black Hills 55gr Blue Box which seems pretty hot. I think it's rated over 3,000FPS. But dang on the fireball stuff.

who's got a box? I've got PayPal!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:21:50 PM EDT
Bass pro sells q3131 for 4.49/20.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:26:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hatton007:
Bass pro sells q3131 for 4.49/20.



Right now it's on a 10% off sale here in MD. $4.04/20. Not a great price, but it will do.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:20:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:33:00 PM EDT by FMJ]
I still have a few bandoliers of 99 Q3131 VERY HOT and I kept it for that reason
just to get a Idea

Q3131 had 27.1grs of ball type powder also the Win M855 also had 27.1grs.

Q3131A had 26.2 grs. of ball type powder! also LC M855 26.2grs.

Santa barbra SS109 26.0grs

SA M193 powder ball type 26.2grs.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:55:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hatton007:
Bass pro sells q3131 for 4.49/20.




I just looked on Bass Pro's website and couldn't find any??? Am I missing something? I want to get a few more boxes but don't want to pay the $5.++ Gander Mt. is selling it fore.

Thanx,Stang
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:24:49 PM EDT
I think it is a -10% "In Store" special.

Which sucks for me. We don't have Bass Pro shops in Utah.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:26:54 PM EDT
Click on the Bass Pro link in ammo prices and it will take you right there.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:28:13 PM EDT
I just bought a case of Q3131 from Miwall for $199.99 at the Crossroads gun show in Costa Mesa, CA this past weekend. Date stamps all appear to be '05 and it's from Lot WL71. I haven't shot any of it yet, but when I do, I'll let you guys know what I think (not that it would matter much, since I don't have much experience actually firing AR rifles...).



Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:53:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 6:55:23 PM EDT by steven1513]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
At one point in time I believe they were loaded the same, but the few Q3131 boxes I have left laying around are not as hot as the Q3131A I stock, hence my comment above....


Exactly. Winchester ran the Lake City Arsenal up to 1999. Q3131 stamped 1999 and older is mil-spec and identical to todays Federal Lake City XM193. Post 1999 Q3131 is great ammo, but not mil-spec. Q3131A is mil-spec and made by IMI for Winchester.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:20:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steven1513:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
At one point in time I believe they were loaded the same, but the few Q3131 boxes I have left laying around are not as hot as the Q3131A I stock, hence my comment above....


Exactly. Winchester ran the Lake City Arsenal up to 1999. Q3131 stamped 1999 and older is mil-spec and identical to todays Federal Lake City XM193. Post 1999 Q3131 is great ammo, but not mil-spec. Q3131A is mil-spec and made by IMI for Winchester.



So what's your definition of mil spec? The new Q3131 is a 55 gr. FMJBT bullet, is cannelured, crimped, loaded in 5.56 brass, 5.56 pressure, sealed, etc. etc. Seems just as mil spec as XM193.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:45:39 AM EDT
OLD Q3131 is M193

Q3131A is M193

Newer Q3131 is M193

All the Q is hot and M193 specs

I perfer Q3131 over any type of M193 or 223 55FMJ But thats Me AE 55fmj wont bang up your AR15 and is very accurate!

ALL WinQ/ M193 is suppose to have 3270FPS
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:28:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:31:09 PM EDT by steven1513]

Originally Posted By FMJ:
OLD Q3131 is M193 agreed
Q3131A is M193 agreed
Newer Q3131 is M193 !!! That's great. Show me us where to verify this. It rebuffs much other information and empirical data ARFer's have acquired.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 10:44:24 PM EDT by steven1513]

Originally Posted By Bushwacker85:
So what's your definition of mil spec? The new Q3131 is a 55 gr. FMJBT bullet, is cannelured, crimped, loaded in 5.56 brass, 5.56 pressure, sealed, etc. etc. Seems just as mil spec as XM193.


Not my definition. (I rarely come up with any new thoughts.) See the Winchester Press Release and the Ammo Oracle.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:34:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 8:38:26 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By steven1513:

Originally Posted By Bushwacker85:
So what's your definition of mil spec? The new Q3131 is a 55 gr. FMJBT bullet, is cannelured, crimped, loaded in 5.56 brass, 5.56 pressure, sealed, etc. etc. Seems just as mil spec as XM193.


Not my definition. (I rarely come up with any new thoughts.) See the Winchester Press Release and the Ammo Oracle.



WHERE in that press release, OR in the Ammo Oracle - do you find anything that states, as you put it:


Post 1999 Q3131 is great ammo, but not mil-spec.


Nothing in those articles state that? How is new production Q3131 NOT up to M193 spec? All I have seen is conjecture from people who said it "didnt feel as hot" in previous threads.

The only way to tell, is to take a known quality reference barrel, and chronograph the loads. Disassemble a catridge, and examin the primer, sealants, and bullet type. Perform gel testing to ensure fragmentation is consistent with previous M193 gel tests.

I havent read anything definitive yet that demonstrates that new production Q3131 is not in the M193 spec.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:36:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By steven1513:
That's great. Show me us where to verify this. It rebuffs much other information and empirical data ARFer's have acquired.



Show me us where this empirical data from ARFer's exists, that demonstrates new production Q3131 is NOT up to M193 specs.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:40:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By steven1513:
Not my definition. (I rarely come up with any new thoughts.) See the Winchester Press Release and the Ammo Oracle.



The Winchester press release just explains the difference between .223 SAAMI and 5.56mm ammo. Last time I looked, Q3131A is still marked 5.56mm ammo, so I am not sure exactly how this supports your claim that post-1999 is somehow different from pre-1999.

I don't think that ammo is mil-spec just based on where it is made. If you want any further proof of that just look at XM193PD. It is made at Lake City; but I am pretty sure military specs don't allow Federal to use bullets that look like they were squeezed in a vise prior to loading.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:29:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 2:49:25 PM EDT by WesDesRat]
Some of you guys make my head spin...

To summarize: Yes Winchester Q3131 should meet the "milspec" for M193 ammo, just like Q3131A.

One batch or lot of Q3131A might be hotter than one batch of Q3131 but both should meet the velocity spec for M193 ammo. What "feels" hotter dosn't really mean much. Actual velocities are what counts.

IMHO either Q3131A or Q3131 would be a better choice than Federal XM193.

Look at it this way: Federal XM193 is most likely left over components loaded on LC equipment, and may or may not actually meet the "milspec" for M193. The last case of XM193 I bought was lot 109, and it had case headstamps that varied from LC 01 to LC 04... this stuff isnt exactly first run, top grade ammo. Does it work most of the time...sure. Is it hot... sure...

Both Q3131A and Q3131 are more likely to have better QC and meet all of the specs fo M193... and if I had to guess, they are also top grade... not just thrown together leftover components.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:53:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:20:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 4:23:19 PM EDT by FMJ]
You guys need to get off the key board and go shooting!

Q3131 has been around for ages!

Q3131 is Fine 3270fps

whats your malfunction!!!!

Lake City/ Federal /XM193 is good ammo I have 500rds kept for a rainy day!

But I like Q3131 and would pick it over the xm/Federal/Lake city any day of the week!

I have shot this Winchester Round since the 80`S I have NEVER found any problems!

Relax everything is okay!

Wes des rat you are a wise man.

And besides they Robber/zombie you shoot aint going to know if its Q3131 or AE 55fmj wich is 100 t0 200 fps slower!!

I would worry more wich round SHOOTS BETTER!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:30:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:35:02 PM EDT
I've had problems with Q3131 but not A
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:55:13 PM EDT
Where are some good sources to find the Q3131A ?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:45:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 6:50:52 AM EDT by brillo]

Originally Posted By Bryan:
Is Q3131 the same as Q3131A. I know one is made in Israel and loaded to full power.

Is the US Q3131 also full power 5.56 ammo?




From: XXX [mailto:XXX@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:10 PM
To: Nowak, Paul F EALT
Subject: Winchester Q3131


Please confirm that the recent USA manufacture Winchester Q3131 is made to the same milspec as the Winchester Q3131A.

Thanks,

Brillo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:25:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 7:25:40 AM EDT by Bushwacker85]

Originally Posted By brillo:

Originally Posted By Bryan:
Is Q3131 the same as Q3131A. I know one is made in Israel and loaded to full power.

Is the US Q3131 also full power 5.56 ammo?




From: XXX [mailto:XXX@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:10 PM
To: Nowak, Paul F EALT
Subject: Winchester Q3131


Please confirm that the recent USA manufacture Winchester Q3131 is made to the same milspec as the Winchester Q3131A.

Thanks,

Brillo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition



And there we have it. Thanks brillo.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:42:26 AM EDT
BUSHWACKER Thanks!!


Its not about wich M193 is Faster but wich one is more accurate!
I would be more concern with accuracy than how much hotter is XM193 compared to Q3131!

Ive shot the Q3131 since the 80`S

Q3131 3270 fps
Q3131a 3270 fps
Q3131 3270 fps
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:56:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bushwacker85:
And there we have it. Thanks brillo.


Once again Brillo and Troy provide invaluable information on a highly debated issue.
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