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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/7/2003 9:34:35 AM EDT
I already posted this in the legal section, and I am an impatient bastage so I posted it here as well. I gave the local FFL dealer a chance to match ADCO's prices, and if he couldn't then I would use his FFL for the transfer from Steve. He called RRA to inquire about prices of my request, which would require an upper (complete) and a lower (complete) both from RRA. The guy at RRA told my FFL that putting the two together without a Class 1 lic (by either the FFL or me) would be manufacturing firearms without a lic and we would be commiting a federal felony. I think BS, but I usually learn my lessons the hard way (twice), so I thought I'd ask.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:10:18 AM EDT
Its BS. The stripped lower is a complete firearm in itself, and already manufactured. The guy at RRA is a dumbass, you should talk to his boss.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:22:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:24:02 AM EDT
I will tell the FFL to take-it up if interested. I did a little researching here at it seems that the law breaker is evading the fed excise tax. Does the "assembler", ie. me, have to pay the tax? Or is the tax only required of the Class I manufacturer?
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:33:43 AM EDT
Just order the lower through the FFL. You can order the upper and have it shipped to your house.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:38:41 AM EDT
Isn't the excise tax included in the cost of the lower? The lower is the firearm.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:44:18 AM EDT
RRA told me the same thing. I thought it might be BS, but better to be safe than sorry. It is interesting though, b/c since the upper is an accessory by law, who is to say that your FFL even has records of it being bought and sold? I'm not telling you to circumvent the law, I'm just saying there seems like there's some loopholes in this law that people might try and get around. B9 P.S. Keep your nose clean, order them separately from diff. distributors.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 10:48:56 AM EDT
well I explained this to the FFL, which I really dont know that well. he still wussed out and said I dont want to get in trouble. then he wanted to charge $50 for the transfer. I think its time to find a diff fun shop!!!
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:04:41 AM EDT
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that if a FFL orders a [b]separate[/b] complete upper and lower [b]for the same person at the same time[/b], versus ordering the complete firearm (which includes the excise tax), the FFL could potentially be at risk of a charge of evading the excise tax. The easy way to avoid this problem is to have the lower transferred through the FFL, and have the upper shipped direct to your house. You can purchase any AR part except the stripped lower receiver without a FFL transfer. How long have you known this FFL? If this was the first time you have done business with him, he may have suspected an ATF sting. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt such a thing.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:08:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rxdawg: I may be wrong, but my understanding is that if a FFL orders a [b]separate[/b] complete upper and lower [b]for the same person at the same time[/b], versus ordering the complete firearm (which includes the excise tax), the FFL could potentially be at risk of a charge of evading the excise tax. The easy way to avoid this problem is to have the lower transferred through the FFL, and have the upper shipped direct to your house. You can purchase any AR part except the stripped lower receiver without a FFL transfer. How long have you known this FFL? If this was the first time you have done business with him, he may have suspected an ATF sting. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt such a thing.
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I didn't think about that when I first posted. I bought a stripped lower at a gun show. The dealer didn't carry any parts, and wouldn't suggest a vender as he was concerned about getting hit as a manufacturer.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 12:16:58 PM EDT
I agree there is probably some problem buying both the complete upper & complete lower at the same time. However, You are much better off buying them seperately anyway. Have the dealer get you the complete lower and get an upper from an online source and you should be able to save yourself some $. No sales tax & no dealer markup.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 12:41:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2003 12:58:24 PM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
There's no law prohibiting an individual from manufacturing a firearm. What's illegal is engaging in the [u]business[/u] of manufacturing firearms.
"It shall be unlawful... for any person - (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, [red]to engage in the business[/red] of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms...." [url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_922.html]18 USC 922(a)[/url]
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Putting together a few rifles for yorsrelf isn't engaging in the business by any streach of the imagionation.
The term "engaged in the business" means... as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.... [url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_921.html]18 USC 921(a)(21)(A)[/url].
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The RRA guy is full of it. But I guess we've already established that.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 2:31:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 2:32:47 PM EDT
Don't just pick on RRA for that. I tried to order a BM lower from my dealer and a complete upper the same week, and BM called my dealer making sure it was not for the same customer. He said no, even though they were both for me, but they wanted to make sure we were clear on the excise tax thing too.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 3:30:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 3:35:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 5:50:06 PM EDT
Oh, and a complete lower is not considered a complete firearm for purposes of the 11% excise tax. For purposes of the tax, it is only a part (component).
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 4:04:54 AM EDT
OK, I think I got it. He just can't sell me all the parts in the same transaction without paying the excise tax and he doesn't have the lic. Regardless, I think I will just have all the rest of the goodies shipped home.
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