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Posted: 10/14/2002 4:01:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2002 2:46:13 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
I took the gun to the Hun farm this weekend and the 9mm
did not do to well. The gun constantly jams. I had 3 of the
new mags from CDNN running 4 different kinds of ammo.
Then I switched to using Uzi mags with different ammo, then
used Colt mags using different ammo. Gun still jams up,
Sometimes really bad by having shell casings getting stuck inside.
I used Blazer, Wolf, Seller and Bellot, Winchester. I could not
find a good medium to give you any other report. We were all stumped.
I had mojo and energizer, which have 9mm AR's, and they couldn't
say to much as to what was wrong with it.
They thought it was the mags since they were new but we used many different ones.
We used many types of ammo as well.
All the basic tests one would go through
I think we did everything to figure out the problem.
I took it apart several times and it was properly lubed.

Any thoughts ?

If there is no simple quick fix, I gonna get rid of it at the next gun show.
I'm not into baby sitting guns that are finicky.
I'm pretty bumbed out about it since I waited so long for it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:38:23 PM EDT
Did you try repositioning your mag block a bit? There is a small bit of room to move it up and down a bit. I haven't put more than a couple of hundred rounds through mine yet - I initially had trouble with PMP ammo, but it was doing very well with the Winchester 100 rd value packs from Walmart, so they do in general seem a bit picky about ammo (seem to like it hot). However, in your case that obviously was not, or at least not the only problem.

I think you're bound to have more trouble with any sort of conversion than a factory built rifle designed for a particular round. Especially when you are dealing with converted mags as well. During the first session with the PMP ammo, I was thinking I may as well have gotten an SW5 :(. Things seem to be looking better now, but I agree with you as well - I'd rather not have a rifle is so picky and can eat any sort of ammo.

Rocko
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:31:40 PM EDT
Did you try calling Rock River?
Are you using the 9mm hammer? How about the 9mm buffer, and, if in a full length receiver extension, the stock spacer? Are you using the RRA magwell adaptor or something else?
I'm up to about 4500 rounds through mine without a hitch...just don't try lead wadcutters!
Try giving RRA a call before you get rid of it.
Sluggo
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:09:23 PM EDT
This was a group purchase from RR and has all
the right parts. I'm not familiar with the stock spacer. I will try a few things before I
dump it. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 3:58:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 4:14:08 AM EDT by Pops]
I had similar trouble.
First, I forgot to hose the thing down first with CLP (don't use any grease) before I went to shoot it for the first time. Any drag at all in the thing will cause a problem. The bolt would short-cycle.
Second, just like Rocko said, be sure the mag-block up in there far enough.

Both the first and second things not being done on my new rifle caused the worst jams I had ever seen.
One other little thing you might try if you are using the 9mm buffer for a semi-auto is switch back to the standard buffer. they are a lot lighter and will allow the unit to function with less blow-back restriction. After you feel you've got the unit broke in you can switch back to the 9mm buffer. Just for HaHa's I switched back to the standard buffer and what a difference it made in ejection! The empty cartridges where as dangerous as the bullets!
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 5:58:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 6:01:35 AM EDT by Redleg155]
As Pops said, switching back to the standard buffer during the break in perioud may cure your ailments.

I'd also check the following...

1. Extractor roll pin. This pin does have a slight tendancy to back out. I've had one back out on a previous RR 9mm rifle. It was easily fixed by tapping it back in place.

2. Mag block position and tightness. As stated before, you do have some leeway on how high or low the mag block sits in your lower. Also check to see that it is in tight. If your mag block isn't in tight it will rock back and cause the ejector to hit in an irregular pattern or be buffered completely, not allowing proper ejection and causing the round to be ejected enough to clear the bolt face and allow a new round to be chambered, but not clear the ejection port. I would also check to see that the ejector is in good condition. There will be a slight amount of play, but it shouldn't be much.

3. Try some Winchester USA white box ammo. Winchester white box has a relatively long OAL, very similar to NATO spec FMJ. They work great in both 9mms that I have had...my current and my former.

4. At the range, or in a safe place with the firing pin removed, try hand cycling the action and see exactly where the problem is. When chambering a new round give the charging handle a swift hard pull to the rear and release it completely. All rounds should eject in a uniform pattern and into the relatively same spot.

At a last resort, try using your upper and mag block on a different lower and see if your lower is the culprit and not the RRA upper.

Good Shooting
RED
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 6:15:20 PM EDT
Thanks for the tips. I have some work ahead of me. I will go shoot it again over the weekend
and see what happens. I have the extra parts here
as well so I'll tear into it later.

Thanks
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 5:52:06 PM EDT
Well I've taken it apart a few times and put the regular AR
buffer in it. As I am testing it, it seems to not
be ejecting the bullets completly out right now
as I load a mag in and just run the bullets through.
I still haven't taken it out to the range yet.
I will go Saturday and shoot it.
I haven't adjusted the mag block yet. It seems to be flush
with the lower receiver.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:04:24 PM EDT
Just make sure you are giving the charging handle a firm swift pull to the rear when testing for ejection. Unlike the .223 bolt where the ejector is spring loaded, the 9mm has a fixed ejector that relies on the rearward travel of the bolt to efficiently operate it.

Also..try adjusting the block up and down a bit when testing for ejection.

Good Shooting
RED
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:15:27 PM EDT
Ditto on the extractor roll pin. My RR 9mm was doing the same thing. The spent casings looked like they were falling from the ejection port rather than flying out. Turns out the extractor roll pin was undersized, and kept backing out--causing the extractor to move backwards flat against the bolt face. Called RRA and they sent the correct sized roll pin. 1000 rounds later and still no problems...
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 2:56:55 PM EDT
Hey Legs, did you have a chance to try your rifle out this weekend. I'm just curious, also hope all went well!
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 9:57:43 PM EDT
This may sound harsh....

Check the distance (clearance) of the mag lip and the ejecotor. Double feed mags (ie factory Colt and Uzi mags), I've noticed, sit high. I noticed that the extracting round hits the mag lip that is inline w/ the ejector, nocking it out before it hits the ejector.

I trimmed the mag lip back a few thousands of an inch. The one that is inline w/ the ejector. Seems to help. That or bend the lip down a bit....

Harsh solution........yes..... but I got cheap old USA uzi/9mm AR mags to work..
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 5:47:08 AM EDT
Bad chamber.

Had a guy at the range with a new RRA upper and stopping every few rounds to fix this and fix that. I swap my Colt upper onto his lower and using his carrier and it worked 95%. Stopped using the Winchester, Remington and went to a strict Wolf diet and gun worked 100%. Put the RRA upper back and problems returned. Concluded it was a rough or bad chamber. The guy said he might polish it or just sell it and get a Colt. The Colt has a NATO chamber and a chrome bore and I never had a bad Colt barrel, only had bad ammo.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 8:29:35 AM EDT
If that's the case he can send it back to Rock River for repair or replacement. Rock River does have great costomer service.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 9:56:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Hey Legs, did you have a chance to try your rifle out this weekend. I'm just curious, also hope all went well!



Didn't get a chance too this weekend, it was rainny
and I'm broke. I have taken it apart several times
and the bolt carrier seems to be rubbing against something.
It has a slight resistance when I pull the charging
handle back. I have also filed the mags down a bit.

There is a gun show this weekend so I need to shoot
it before its over. If it fails again I want to get
rid of it at the show. I hope it works, I really
kinda like it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 8:46:43 PM EDT
ilikelegs,
I tried to shoot mine yesterday. No joy with my ASA converted Uzi mags. It seems the mag well block is much tighter then the ASA block. The Colt mags seem to work well in dry runs. I may try them tomorrow. It is very frustrating though. The South American contract mags seem to be a little too large for the ASA mag well, but seem to fit the RRA well. The bolt hold open seems to be part of the problem along with the feed lips. I think it prevents the bolt from going forward with some mags.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:14:54 AM EDT
Well I took the piece of shit out this weekend
and it still jams. I tried lowering the mag block
and shot higher grain ammo through it.
The only time it function well was when I used a
20 round Colt mag in it. Guess I will be calling RR
and see if they will replace it. I like the 9mm AR
so I'm gonna try to get this straightened out instead of
selling it. I shot superalpha's Colt 9mm AR and bump fire it.
I could run through a whole mag with no problems.

Anyone think I will have any problems getting RRA to replace it
and send me another one. I waited almost 4 months for this one.
I Wonder how long it will be before this mess gets straightened out?


Mine is not extracting the round out very well and jams.
I don't know if this is called short stroking or not.
I didn't want to file anything down yet since this may void any
warranty.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:20:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2002 8:24:47 AM EDT by Pops]
Legs,
It works with the Colt Mags! See if you can get your hands on the colt mags again and compare your mags to the colts. Sometimes the mag catch hole gets cut a little low and the mag goes up too high and shells hit the mag not the ejector finger. This can cause a real nasty jam. Another way to check is, with the upper off, put the colt mag into the lower and see how much clearance you have between the colt mag and the ejector finger. then do the same with your non-colt mags. They should both have the same clearance.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 10:17:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pops:
Legs,
It works with the Colt Mags! See if you can get your hands on the colt mags again and compare your mags to the colts. Sometimes the mag catch hole gets cut a little low and the mag goes up too high and shells hit the mag not the ejector finger. This can cause a real nasty jam. Another way to check is, with the upper off, put the colt mag into the lower and see how much clearance you have between the colt mag and the ejector finger. then do the same with your non-colt mags. They should both have the same clearance.



I have 3 of the new mags for it. You don't suppose
all of them are too high do ya.
I hope it would be this simple to fix.
I will get in touch with him first before I send it back.

Have any of you delt with RRA customer service ?
Are they worthy ?
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 11:13:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2002 11:29:27 AM EDT by Pops]
I have to honest, this is just a guess. All the non-colt mags are supposed to be cut to match the colt mags. The Colt mags work and the non-colts don't. I've seen mags being sold as Colt style mags for use in colt system AR's and they don't work worth a darn. When you check the mags in the lower you'll see that if they sit too high (the front edge of the mag normally is out in front of the ejector) so if it's too high the mag now becomes an ejector. It's to soon for the shell to be ejected and they bounce around inside and get big-time jammed. Colt 9mm mags are the best you can get but they require a large bank loan, that's the reason for the modified Uzi's.

As far as Rock River service goes, I would say darn good. I had a problem and they said just send it back and it's fixed no charge. Call first .. they may even have a setup where they pay shipping from your place. I never sent mine because they explained over the phone what the fix was so I did it myself.

By the way, What else did you change to get your rifle so it will run?
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 12:45:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pops:


By the way, What else did you change to get your rifle so it will run?



I put the standard AR buffer in it as well, which was one of your suggestions.

I'll tear it apart again tonight.
Looks like RR will be getting a call.
I hope they pay for shipping. This group purchase
savings has already gone out the window.
I should have just gotten a pre ban 9mm Colt.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 3:36:56 PM EDT
I shot mine today with Colt mags. 100 rounds went through with out fail. Hopefully later this week, I `ll get to try the south american mags and some of my converted Uzi mags. I also made sure I applied Break Free liberally before I went to the range. I hope you`re having better luck 'legs'. I`ll try comparing it to my ASA.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:12:26 PM EDT
Have you tried the single feed South African "Colt style mag"???
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:47:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 1:48:09 PM EDT by Gloftoe]

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
I have taken it apart several times
and the bolt carrier seems to be rubbing against something.
It has a slight resistance when I pull the charging
handle back. I have also filed the mags down a bit.



Howdy legs. Listen, I noticed the same problem with my 9mm upper (got mine in the group buy too) when I was making a Sten block for it. Have you tried popping the mag block out, and cycling the bolt? When I was trying to fit my block set up there, I drove myself CRAZY trying to figure out what the bolt was dragging on.

If it drags with the block installed, but no mag in, drop the block out and cycle the bolt manually. If the drag is gone, pop the block back in, and lower it enough so that the feed ramp and ejector don't drag the bolt. Then slap a mag home, and try to manually cycle rounds and check feeding. If you have to put the block too low for the rounds to feed properly, the block is more than likely the problem (unless the bolt isn't manufactured correctly?).

A 9mm AR is a FUN gun. I've gone thru probably 750-1000 rounds in mine, and I haven't had a single hiccup. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, and hope this helps to solve them!

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:06:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
I have taken it apart several times
and the bolt carrier seems to be rubbing against something.
It has a slight resistance when I pull the charging
handle back. I have also filed the mags down a bit.



Howdy legs. Listen, I noticed the same problem with my 9mm upper (got mine in the group buy too) when I was making a Sten block for it. Have you tried popping the mag block out, and cycling the bolt? When I was trying to fit my block set up there, I drove myself CRAZY trying to figure out what the bolt was dragging on.

If it drags with the block installed, but no mag in, drop the block out and cycle the bolt manually. If the drag is gone, pop the block back in, and lower it enough so that the feed ramp and ejector don't drag the bolt. Then slap a mag home, and try to manually cycle rounds and check feeding. If you have to put the block too low for the rounds to feed properly, the block is more than likely the problem (unless the bolt isn't manufactured correctly?).

A 9mm AR is a FUN gun. I've gone thru probably 750-1000 rounds in mine, and I haven't had a single hiccup. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, and hope this helps to solve them!

-Gloftoe



Thanks Gloftoe,
I will try that out tonight.
I just finished tearing apart my pre ban Bushy so
I might as well tear the 9mm apart again while
everything is still out.

You need to come up to the next shootout we have at ETH's.
Bring your s9mm with ya. There were three of us
there last time with them.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:15:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 2:16:41 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
As soon as I hear dates (so far, sometime this spring is planned) I'll clear my calendar. You're the one that can bump-fire from the shoulder, while aiming, right? You'll have to teach me!

This is my wife's rifle (I call it mine because she's yet to shoot it ) so she'll probably come too. Good luck, and let us know what you find!

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:26:55 PM EDT
Well the drag is still there.
I has to be the trigger that its dragging on.
Its the highest object left in the receiver.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:33:41 PM EDT
The hammer you mean? What's your lower? Was this a "complete" rifle from RRA? Or was it just an upper? Also, what kind of hammer is it (.223 with the notch, .223 with no notch, or 9mm?) That just seems REALLY weird.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:54:26 PM EDT
Yes I mean the hammer. It was a complete rifle that SteyrAUG put together.
I think you got the same thing as I did but
with green furniture, right ? The hammer does
have the notch and I assume that its the 9mm
that was put in there.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 3:28:22 PM EDT
All I got was the upper, and put it on an existing lower. My lower already had a parts kit in it, and it didn't use the 9mm hammer. It just used the regular .223 hammer that RRA sells. Take a look here:
www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/hammers/
My hammer looks like the AR-15 (Early) - .155
Which does your hammer look like?

Also, do you have anyone close by that has a colt-style upper? Maybe you could try their bolt, or better yet, put your upper on their 9mm lower.

Just trying to help out. Keep us updated.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 3:44:16 PM EDT
Mine is the one marked "9mm - .155 & .170"
Far right middle row hammer.
This one is on the rifle.

I also have the "AR-15 (Early) - .155" that came with it.

Energizer and Superalpha from this board are close by
and they have Colt 9mm's. We'll have to try that
if I get a chance.

We may have a mini shoot over Christmas some time.
You should come up for that one.
Thanks
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:39:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
You're the one that can bump-fire from the shoulder, while aiming, right? You'll have to teach me!



It was also Badd_Bradd with his "match trigger" and TRG I think did it too... I can bump fire like the pros using Badd_Bradd's AR... but I cannot bump-fire mine...
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:42:04 AM EDT
According to ETH, he said the extractor looked a little high compared to the Colt.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:07:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Energizer:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
You're the one that can bump-fire from the shoulder, while aiming, right? You'll have to teach me!



I can bump fire like the pros using Badd_Bradd's AR... but I cannot bump-fire mine...



Rookie
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:26:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 2:28:05 PM EDT by ronaldmwilliams]
This is a little off base but I have a 10mm oly upper & when I run it on my Colt Match Target lower it will give me 4rnd bursts every time I pull the trigger. While aiming! Using modified sten mags! On my Bushy & PWA lower you have to work at it. The range officer only picks up on 2rnds but there are 4 emptys in the air! These pistol uppers are fast! Sorry, I had to toss that in. Thanks, Ron
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:40:21 PM EDT
Ron,
Did you have a .223 hammer on those lowers ?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 5:58:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 6:01:00 PM EDT by Energizer]

Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
This is a little off base but I have a 10mm oly upper & when I run it on my Colt Match Target lower it will give me 4rnd bursts every time I pull the trigger. While aiming! Using modified sten mags! On my Bushy & PWA lower you have to work at it. The range officer only picks up on 2rnds but there are 4 emptys in the air! These pistol uppers are fast! Sorry, I had to toss that in. Thanks, Ron



For each pull of the trigger, if it fires more than one shot, then that's considered a machine gun, whether or not it has M16 parts.

For almost any semi-auto gun, if you let the recoil "help" you (match trigger will help even more), then the trigger is pulled once per round, but it will dump the magazine... It is not that easy, unless you have a target trigger...

Also, the 9mm is blow back operated instead of gas, and has a bolt without a carrier. Is the 10mm the same?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:30:46 PM EDT
I still bump fired a full mag with their 9mm.
Blow back operated or gas.
I'll bump it!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:34:30 PM EDT
You may need a match trigger (I don't know if that will help), but I'd like to see you try to bump fire a basic Ruger 10/22.... using 50rd magazines.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:14:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
You're the one that can bump-fire from the shoulder, while aiming, right? You'll have to teach me!



What the hell is "Bump Fire" ???

Link Posted: 11/13/2002 5:08:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 5:09:05 AM EDT by Energizer]

Originally Posted By Corvus:

What the hell is "Bump Fire" ???




Were the previous posts on this topic unclear?

Look about THREE posts back... (see my post?)
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 6:22:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 6:23:52 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
I talked to Steve today from RRA about my problems,
He gave me some suggestions to check on such as
making sure the spacer sleeve was in place.
If it still does not work he said for me to send
it back to him and they will take care of it for me.
RR does have good customer service as so many of
you have said, so I feel better about getting this
worked out soon. They also have their own conversion mags
for it so I will buy some of those as well.
Never can have enough mags, always need more.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 6:57:43 AM EDT
What's a spacer sleeve? I'm wondering if I have one.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:10:40 AM EDT
Steve said if I take out the buffer and spring
I should see it inside the buffer tube.
I don't know what it is either so if you don't
see anything in there, you don't have it.
Steve said the stock spacer was only an $8 part and plays a
tremendous role in making it perform properly.
I will check it out tonight.
sluggo was the first to ask this but I didn't know
what it was. Steve from RR explained it pretty
well to me so I know what to look for.

Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:17:49 AM EDT
Cool. Let us know what you find. See, I stuck mine on a .223 lower. It's got the standard hammer, standard buffer, etc. Maybe I don't have one. I'll have to look tonite too.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:29:47 AM EDT
Do Colt's have these spacer sleeves? Are they there to adjust the spring from .223 to 9mm? If so, my Colt probably doesn't have it...
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:40:32 AM EDT
I don't know if Colt has them.
Check yours tonight as well and give me a buzz.
I kinda don't think this is the problem with
mine but we will see.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:05:49 AM EDT
Colt = Quality.


I could kick myself (OUCH! Just did!) for not buying the TWO pre-ban 9mms (one had a tele-stock): for $800 & $850 a couple years ago at the gun show!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! reason I didn't bother, I had my post-ban and knew that good Colt mags were scarce & expensive....

Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:21:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Corvus:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
You're the one that can bump-fire from the shoulder, while aiming, right? You'll have to teach me!



What the hell is "Bump Fire" ???




Bump firing is a technique by which you hold the
rifle with your left hand and use your trigger
finger as a peg so that the recoil sets off the next round.

Practice, and you will get it.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:05:28 PM EDT
ilikelegs, I have a 223 hammer. These are "STOCK" lowers except the Colt lower says Match Target Competition HBAR II. It all has to do with sear engagement. The Colt has very little for minimal takeup. Energizer, The 10mm is blowback also. I think the increase in bolt speed helps things along better. I reload & the HOT 10mm reloads run the best! I havent tried to empty my mag because the range officer said I must have complete control over the weapon & bump fire is not a controled situation. Well, all 4rnds hit the 10" circle at 10-15yds but he is right. I get 4rnds in one depresion of the triger. I just squeeze the triger like Im target shooting. If I pause for an instant I know the mag will run dry. Next time I go to the woods Ill run a full mag through just for the heck of it. Legal or not, it sure is fun!!!Ron
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:51:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
Legal or not, it sure is fun!!!Ron


Hmmm.

Not to be an asshole or anything, but you really shouldn't go preaching and bragging how your 9mm AR puts out 4 rounds with 1 trigger pull. Illegal machine guns are not something to be taken lightly. They are, in fact, illegal.

-Gloftoe
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