I bought a couple PMag 20s to compliment the 30s I already have. First let me start off with how I feel about PMag 30s, I think they are the smoothest nicest magazines I have ever seen. The fit and function is perfect. Now let me talk about the 20s…

First thing I notice is the texture was changed from the 30. The texture is a very much smoother, so smooth in fact that scratches show very easily, as mine came with some for free. Not a big deal, but the courser texture of the 30s helps keep scratches to a minimum.



Second thing I notice is that when I press the follower down into the magazine body with a pen from the center, it is very notchy feeling and when pulling the pen slowly out the follow will stop in the body about 1inch down. A shake or tap of the side of the body forces the follower to return. This was apparent on both of the magazines I bought.  

I took the magazine apart and notice some slight mold marks at the back of the follower and trimed them off. Put it back together and it is a little smoother, still really rough though, but no longer hanging. I then put a PMAG 30 follower in the 20 body and other than the follower stop stopping the follower a little before reaching the top, it moves perfectly inside the body. So I decide to put a 20 follower in a 30 body. To my surprise it is almost as smooth as the 30 follower in the 30 body. Strange, no drag or notchy feel with the 20 follower in the 30 body.





So at this point I am a bit disappointed but figure, what the hell maybe they will get smoother with use. I mean I am only pressing a pen into them, not loading with bullets and shooting. It is not a true function test.

I then go to see what they look like in my Bushmaster. I take my loaded PMag 30 out and put an empty 20 in. Well that’s not right, there is a good bit of friction going in. The magazines are slightly wider than my lowers mag well. I have no issues putting a bare PMag 30 body inside my lower and it dropping free even without the follower, spring, or cap weight. I can get the 20 in the mag well but there is definitely some friction and they are not close to dropping free. I measured the inside of my mag well in a few places and get about .902”, I then measure the magazines to be around .910” while my 30s measure between .880” and .886”.

These 20s will not drop free even with only ¼” of them inserted into the lower.


I measured the inside of my CMMG and it is .902” as with the Bushmaster at the edges of the well but then opens to .925” in the center. The magazines do drop free in this lower. The ridges look the same in both lowers but the Bushmaster seems to be narrower in the middle than the CMMG, probably to snug the magazine a bit. No other magazines including PMag 30s have had an issue with it.



Please note, I absolutely love my PMag 30s and praise them to no end. I will continue to buy more and more as 20 of them is not enough, but I am unsure about the PMag 20s until they are fixed. I mean they had issue with the 30s and now they have the best magazine made on the market.

Nice review.

I said it before with the Magpul 30 rounders.

I never buy the 1st generation of any product....Guns,Magazines,Cars.....

It seems Magpul got the 30 rounders right with the 2nd generations. It might take them another generation of 20 rounders before they get it 100%.

I will wait and look for some positive reviews on the forums before I buy Magpul 20 rounders. Its not like I don't have 100% 20 rounders already ( D&H, NHMTG, CProducts)


John

The 20's work fine in both my Bushmaster and Ameetec lowers.

Well it looks like no 20 round Pmags for MEGA lowers. The 30rd Pmags will barely fit in my Mega lowers now, and if they made the 20's larger...

Quoted: but I am unsure about the 20s until they are fixed.

They aren't fucking broken.

Quoted: Quoted: but I am unsure about the 20s until they are fixed. They aren't fucking broken.

They might not be broken....But I will wait for more AR15/M4 forum reviews before I order my dozen. Just to be on the safe side.


John

Quoted: Quoted: but I am unsure about the 20s until they are fixed. They aren't fucking broken.

Any magazine that does not return to normal smoothly when pressing the follower down is broken to me. I am so fucking sorry you do not agree.

Please don't get all upset about it, it is not an overly big deal that they did not work perfectly for me, I am not upset. This post was to show the facts that I found. Magpul has completely redesigned two different magazines for the AR-15 platform. I did not expect them to get it perfect the first time, and know that once they get ironed out they will be the best performing 20rd magazines available like the 30s are today.

Look at it this way, how many years did it take to get the USGI magazines to function well after their first release? Well it only took a handful of months for Magpul to surpass that with the PMag 30.

First off Eric.You did a Fine job on your review of the 20 rounder.And unfortunately you'll find a load of "EXPERTS"like Lumpy to give his "USELESS"opinon.
I started a thread on the 23rd about my first impression of the Pmag 20 and was called everything from "Bubba"to "Compulsive Stupid".My opinion is just that...Mine.

there are no less than 5 topics about 20rd PMAGs in the the active topics and they aren't positive.

I wish Magpul would have ramped up production on the UBR, ACS, XTM panels, and MOE gear and ditched the 20rd PMAGs...

I have the same problem with P-mag 20rn
Will not dropp free in one of my bushmaster's, but the odder bushmaster I have is ok

I just got my PMag 20s and they fit into my DPMS and drop freely without issue.

Quoted: Quoted: but I am unsure about the 20s until they are fixed. They aren't fucking broken.

To the OP, good review of your experience.  Bonus points for pics!  

I agree that Pmags aren't broken, though.  First Gen products are rarely perfect in every detail, but there's a distinct difference between "Fitting someting to the majority useage" and "Getting it right".  What we see with most of the Second Gen+ stuff EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, NOT JUST AR CRAP, is "Fitting it to the majority useage", even if that's wrong, to be able to sell a product and stay in business.

Seems most of the problems with Pmags are really with the magwells in the Johnny-come-lately peddlers of AR15 lowers.  NOT universally, but mostly.  Flame away, if you like, but I don't see a rash of them not working in Colts, DPMS, Armalite, Bushmaster, or even the much hated OLY lowers.  

Figure if there were going to be some super duper increadible real problems with them, the magic super tight mag well Oly owners would be pissing and moaning all over their own shoes by now with some such conspiracy crap about how Pmags were specifically designed to keep them from working in Oly lowers because the rest of the Black Rifle world hates us.  

Isn't happening, huh?  Wow, go figure.  That, or maybe there's more important things in life than championing or destroying a $15 product.  

What most folks FAIL to acknowledge (because usually they want to rationalize thier purchases and brand loyalty) is that MagPul made the mags to spec with the Colt TDP (Technical Data Package), which is to say, the only original and official USGI spec for dimensions.

As the information in that TDP is propriatary Colt info, little things like the spec of the mag well either have to be shared jointly or purchased.

Everyone else that is turning out lowers REVERSE ENGINEERED their specs from an original TDP machined lower.  Some, like BM, have been in the business long enough that they've figured out what to open, and what to tighten.  Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't.

Others have reverse engineered a reverse engineered lower, compounding the problems.  Any fucktard first year CNC operator can program a routine into the computer.  

Just because the item that comes out LOOKS good enough doesn't make it IN FACT good enough.  And because one place machines lowers for two other places DOES NOT mean that they use the same CNC program to do BOTH lowers.  In fact, ALMOST NEVER unless there's a license agreement, because that engineering data package and CNC program are ALSO propriatry information, owned someone other than the machinery operator, and that shit costs money.  Nothing in the manufacturing world is free.

Add tolerance stacking, or "We just didn't think that beveling the magwell was important enough to do" bullshit, and you have the current crop of good, bad, ugly, and bastardized lowers on the market today.  

Hit or miss, you get exactally what you paid for, and nothing better.

Tom

Saying broke isn't an accurate term for how I feel about these magazines.  I do not intend to return them or anything crazy like that. I do believe that they will smooth out a bit and work fine.

None of the points I made about them is a major concern to me, simply a few minor concerns that are apparent when comparing to the PMag 30s.  I will still run them in my guns, although I probably won't buy anymore of the 20s unless they are modified from this version. I really don't 'NEED' many anyways, 30s work great for me. The reason I gave measurements was for others to compare to theirs.

Quoted: To answer some of your concerns... 1. The Texture. The texture is slighty more mild but this is due to the type of metal used in the mold. Cosmetically it is way better than the first PMag 30s. Maybe, I am not very concerned about this at all. Just mentioned it for mentionings sake 2. Flashing on back of follower. This has been corrected in triming during assembly. That said we took several magazines with this flashing intact and just loaded them up and ran them all through full auto fire several times with no malfunction. The flashing wore in after the first mag. I figured they would function. Trimming them did help but there is still some sticking, particularly in the upper portion of the stroke. These sticking spots seem to be in consistent places. I can see shinny spots on the follower where it pivots in the mag body. I image that it will smoothen out a bit with use. 3. Drop free issue. PMag 20s are tested to drop free from a slighty tight magwell prior to shipping. During the testing mentioned in item 2, the PMag 20s dropped free of our factory Colt M16 and HK416. As my measurements show the PMAG 20s are .025" to .030" wider than the PMAG 30s. This said we do have a white paper on getting stubborn lowers to drop free with a little work. The end result is the PMag 20 operates differently then the PMag 30. It uses a tilting follower and a straight body to account for the taper of the rounds, where as the PMag 30 uses a curved body and straight follower. Function wise they seem to run as well as the PMag 30s and we have been running them for a number of months prior to the inital release. This is why some people will chime in and state these issues are not a problem if the mag runs.

Glad to hear your results are good and don't doubt it at all. I suppose I expected a shorter version of the PMAGs I already had, and they are not quite there to me.

Now let me say this, if I were to compare to USGI 20 or 30 round mags without Magpul followers, this post would have simply been a notification that they don't fit "perfectly" in my Bushmaster lower

I picked up two 20rd Pmags and both of them drop freely from both of my Double Star lowers. The finish isn't really a big deal to me because mags are going to get scuffed up
with use anyway. I like em.

I too picked up a couple of 20's.  There is a considerable difference in the feel of the follower to me.  Actually enough to cause a little concern for the reliability.  However before I post any negative thoughts I will be sure to test them first.  I'm really happy with all my mag pul products and I have lots of faith in thier products or else I wouldn't have put money into it.  Mine do drop free too, on both my rifles.  And yes one is even an Oly.  

My 20s have the sticky follower also but they drop free from my Bushmaster

Quoted: 3. Drop free issue. PMag 20s are tested to drop free from a slighty tight magwell prior to shipping. During the testing mentioned in item 2, the PMag 20s dropped free of our factory Colt M16 and HK416. As my measurements show the PMAG 20s are .025" to .030" wider than the PMAG 30s.

Quoted: First off Eric.You did a Fine job on your review of the 20 rounder.And unfortunately you'll find a load of "EXPERTS"like Lumpy to give his "USELESS"opinon. I started a thread on the 23rd about my first impression of the Pmag 20 and was called everything from "Bubba"to "Compulsive Stupid".My opinion is just that...Mine.

Only certain opinions are acceptable on the magazine forum, trust me, you will learn, and learn not to waste your time.

Got mine in yesterday, tried 2 bushys and a doublestar lower all drop free 100%, and they look great, Thanks Magpul!

Quoted: "Fitting it to the majority useage", even if that's wrong, to be able to sell a product and stay in business.

Exactly.  I seem to recall the "ribs" on a PMAG hit the magwell when the magwell is not beveled correctly.  Some user on ARFCOM will say his USGI mags work fine - of course they would, they don't have ribs on them!  Why not remove that top rib?  Or lower it?  MagPul make adjustments WEEKLY it seems to the mold.

I'm not a MagPul basher but this shit bothers me.  I'm still going to purchase a 10-Pack of the 30's (3rd Gen) becuase my Bushmaster is a SLUT and has a very open magwell.  Everything drops free from this old girl.

Quoted: there are no less than 5 topics about 20rd PMAGs in the the active topics and they aren't positive.

Bushmaster - Doesn't drop free
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=376239
POF - Doesn't drop free
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=376260
S&W - Known Issue with them
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=375190
Olympic PMAG troubles
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=124&t=158710
Superior Arms?
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=155&t=158663

Call me crazy but I would have liked to have seen a magazine review include something as basic as, oh, say loading the mag with 20 rounds and firing it. But what the heck, this is AFCom, and when does accually using the gear have anything to do with anything?


PS, I figured I'd include a review of the LaRue 9" rail I just picked up. I opened the box and there was a LaRue 9" rail in it. So far so good.

Quoted: Call me crazy but I would have liked to have seen a magazine review include something as basic as, oh, say loading the mag with 20 rounds and firing it. But what the heck, this is AFCom, and when does accually using the gear have anything to do with anything? PS, I figured I'd include a review of the LaRue 9" rail I just picked up. I opened the box and there was a LaRue 9" rail in it. So far so good.

the first part of testing a magazine involves it FITTING into the magwell...

In my many years of shooting steal mags are the best and last the longest. Polymer mags, if want to test them:

1. Let them in car in the summer - Try to load 20 rounds and fit in to the gun.

2. Put them a bucket of ice - and test the same way.

3. The test I didn't try - When the bad guy kicks in my door, and I say TIME OUT MY PMAG WON'T GO INTO MY GUN.

IMHO!  Mike

 
 

Quoted: Call me crazy but I would have liked to have seen a magazine review include something as basic as, oh, say loading the mag with 20 rounds and firing it. But what the heck, this is AFCom, and when does accually using the gear have anything to do with anything? PS, I figured I'd include a review of the LaRue 9" rail I just picked up. I opened the box and there was a LaRue 9" rail in it. So far so good.

Maybe you didn't read the title to the thread, this was an intial review and was done the day I got them. Your post was pretty much useless.

.

my 4 drop free on my DPMS lowers, and have no hesitation to return to the top of the magazine.  much smoother than my 10 nhmtg straight aluminum 20s, which work flawlessly, even thought their followers tilt and catch (one of the  aluminum20s doesn't drop free yet but should break in )

ETA:

I measured width on a bunch of mags; measurements were right above mag catch

no name steel 20s              .875", .870", .880"  none drop free

NHMTG AL 20s                     .895", .892", .898".  the .895" doesn't drop free

USGI La Belle 30                 .891"

English  parked 30               .895", .885", .889"  the .885" does not drop free

orlites                                .880", .885"               the .885" does not drop free

English blued 30s                 .890",.884", .889"

pmag 30  (1/08)                  .884", for all 3

pmag 20   (3/08)                 .892" for all 3


Observations:
obviously, there is quite a bit of variance in mag widths
on the metal mags, the ones that failed to drop free seemed to be all above 2.541"- the back rib was rubbing in the mag well, and the mags showed wear spots.
the Orlite that did not drop free was .901" where the feed lips began to curve in .

the Pmag 30s are about 8 thousandsths narrower than the 20s and about 5 thousandths longer than the 20s.  Pmag 30 was about 2.534", and the 20s are 2.526".  

from the limited sample size, it appears that military dimension spec is approximately .884" to .895" in width and between 2.520" and 2.540" front to back.  Mags over .900" in width and/or over 2.540" in length are certain to be problematic in most magwells; The PMAG 20s seem to be towards the upper end in width.  if the PMAG20s are sticking, you are likely to be having trouble with a few of the wider mags out there too.  

Bought (4) PMAG 20's and all drop perfectly free from my Bushmaster and LMT lowers.  They even hold the bolts open.

All look good.  Excess flashing on follower is irritating on an otherwise quality magazine.  Going out to shoot with them tomorrow.

Update:  Shot a few rounds in each of the 4 Pmag 20s.  Definitely not a scientific test, but all feed perfectly and held the bolt open at the end.

I have 2 and they drop just fine from my MEGA

Quoted: my 4 drop free on my DPMS lowers, and have no hesitation to return to the top of the magazine.  much smoother than my 10 nhmtg straight aluminum 20s, which work flawlessly, even thought their followers tilt and catch (one of the  aluminum20s doesn't drop free yet but should break in ) ETA: I measured width on a bunch of mags; measurements were right above mag catch no name steel 20s              .875", .870", .880"  none drop free NHMTG AL 20s                     .895", .892", .898".  the .895" doesn't drop free USGI La Belle 30                 .891" English  parked 30               .895", .885", .889"  the .885" does not drop free orlites                                .880", .885"               the .885" does not drop free English blued 30s                 .890",.884", .889" pmag 30  (1/08)                  .884", for all 3 pmag 20   (3/08)                 .892" for all 3 Observations: obviously, there is quite a bit of variance in mag widths on the metal mags, the ones that failed to drop free seemed to be all above 2.541"- the back rib was rubbing in the mag well, and the mags showed wear spots. the Orlite that did not drop free was .901" where the feed lips began to curve in . the Pmag 30s are about 8 thousandsths narrower than the 20s and about 5 thousandths longer than the 20s.  Pmag 30 was about 2.534", and the 20s are 2.526".   from the limited sample size, it appears that military dimension spec is approximately .884" to .895" in width and between 2.520" and 2.540" front to back.  Mags over .900" in width and/or over 2.540" in length are certain to be problematic in most magwells; The PMAG 20s seem to be towards the upper end in width.  if the PMAG20s are sticking, you are likely to be having trouble with a few of the wider mags out there too.

This is great information, Thanks

What your info tells me is that my PMAG 20s are not only wider than my other magazines but are also wider than your PMAG 20s and your other magazines, mine being .910 wide. Here are some photos of where I believe the problem is…






I feel that it is evident in the photos that the feed lip area is wider than the rest of the mag body, and is even more so in person.

Eric- I got .906" (+- .001) measuring at the top of my PMAG 20s.  There is actually a mold line that is faintly visible at the top of my  magazines on both sides that is basically at the same level as the case body in the  caliber/cartridge diagram and is most apparent in the bit of flash visible in the slot for the stripper clip spoon.  the yellow arrow in your top picture points directly at the mold line, which is faiirly apparent in your photo.  

it is pretty apparent that the part that forms the feed lips is a separate part of the mold.  from my measurements, any time parts of the magazine exceed .900"  in the magwell, problems with dropping free increase significantly.  for those experiencing drop free problems, I bet that reducing width with sandpaper  by 5-7 thousandths on each side above the arrow in Eric's photo will cure most drop free problems.  
Magpul should really reduce the width of the cavities on their feed lip molds by .007 on each side- this would probably fix 99% of drop free issues on the 20 rounders.  Doing so is probably most important on the 20 rounders, as this mag is probably going to primarily the civilian market, and encounter many more tight mag wells than the 30 ronders that are intended primarily for milspec receivers- the pmag 30s are narrow enough to work in all but the tightest magwells.  

OK, so we measured at different places. I do get .891" below the feedlip mold line. I would image that the magazine should be pretty even in width from the feedlips to where the magazine protrudes from the mag well, which is not the case here.

I bought 6 of the new PMag 20's. All of them drop free from my Colt and RRA lowers. They do not drop free from my PWA lower but neither do the 30's. My followers do not stick or feel notchy either.

Quoted: The 20's I got look and work Great.

same on mine- my guess is that magpul will revise the molds at some time in the future to narrow the feed lips by a few thou.  This is only a problem for those with super tight magwells; for most the pmag20 is perfedt as is.

I got mine the other day.  I didn't have a chance to shoot them yet but I did load them up and tried the drop free test .

It worked with Mega, Ameetec, Bushmaster, RRA, Oly, POF, Colt (pre and post ban).

It didn't work with Cav Arms (both aluminum and plastic) and Sun Devil.

Mine dropped free from my Colt, Olympic, Doublestar and Mega.  They ever so slighly hang up in the last ¼ inch of the mag well of my Bushmaster, after a few uses they should drop free from it too.

I like'em, already got an order in for more.

+1 Bushmaster and +1 DPMS lowers - both easily dropping free my 4 new
Pmag20s.  Bolt catch / hold-open works on both too.

my 20's drop free from colt and bushmaster lowers

I love these mags. Both the 30 rounders and the 20's drop free from my Bushmaster lower no problem.

Quoted: my 20's drop free from colt and bushmaster lowers

+1

I'm holding out for the production version.

Quoted: I'm holding out for the production version.

Funny....But True.

PMAG did this with the 30 round magazines.

We turned out to be the testers of the 30 rounders. Then PMAGS R&D made changes to production, Magpul made different generations to fix the quirks/problems we reported.

I have to give them credit. Its was smart with them using LEO, Military and Civilian personnel to test their magazines with the price of ammo lately and broad array of weapons we tested them in.

I also have to added once they got it right they did replace all previous magazines with newest/updated magazines.

With that said. I will wait a few months before I purchase my 20 round PMAGS.


John

I just recieved some 20 round PMAGs. Took them to the range today and they work flawlessly in the Bushmaster Ill be using them in so thats good enough for me. They drop free just fine in 2 Bushys and a RRA. I like the texture on the 20s over the 30s too. It may show scratched easier, but arent all our teflon coated mags that way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm holding out for the production version. Funny....But True. PMAG did this with the 30 round magazines. We turned out to be the testers of the 30 rounders. Then PMAGS R&D made changes to production, Magpul made different generations to fix the quirks/problems we reported. I have to give them credit. Its was smart with them using LEO, Military and Civilian personnel to test their magazines with the price of ammo lately and broad array of weapons we tested them in. I also have to added once they got it right they did replace all previous magazines with newest/updated magazines. With that said. I will wait a few months before I purchase my 20 round PMAGS. John It is pretty simple to sit back and question production methods when you produce nothing. HK spent millions of Great Britain’s tax payers money to develop the Steel SA80A2 mags (HK High Reliability mags). Even after almost a year of military testing they still released mags that had the floor plate pop off when dropped on concrete. We tested the 20 rounder for almost 6 months before committing to production. Yes we are always improving our products with feedback from the field. Our only other option is never release a product because the testing will never be complete.

MAGPUL

I think you could of phrased your first sentence with a little nicer tone.

Just because I sit back and produce nothing..... Does not mean I don't know anything about the products I purchase and use.

Your right. I was sitting back when I  typed  the above observations of PMAGS and I don't produce any AR related products.  

If you read my above post again I was not questioning your production methods. I made observations and I actually stated that using LEO, Military and Civilian feedback was a smart corporate move.

But, I and other members of AR15.com, Glocktalk.com and many other members of firearms forums do spent our hard earned money and have the right to discuss firearm products on gun forums without the manufactures getting testy when someone points out valid facts.

I'm glad you tested your 20 rounders for six months....Now the owners of AR's will test them for the next six months and report our finding on gun forums and blogs across America. I believe our reports/reviews helps your R&D and we all benefit from a better quality product

Magpul just relax a little bit. I'm a big fan of your 30 rounders and purchased  2 dozen and they have been 100% .

I also plan on buying your 20's when I feel the bugs have been worked out.

Who knows maybe the reviews will show you got it right the first time

John

Tried my two 20 rounders yesterday at the range.  No problems to report with 2 Bushmasters and 1 XCR.  They ran perfectly including drop free.

The 20 and 30 PMAGs I have drop free just fine from a Cav Arms aluminum lower, DPMS lower, and Ameetech lower.. No fiddling or nothing, they just work.

The two I have function perfectly in my bushy, but they don't drop free all of the way. They both stop with about 1 or 2 centimeters left in the mag well. I can live with that seeing that they are range mags anyway, and most likely will wear in eventually. I'm very pleased with them regardless.