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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/3/2005 8:32:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 1:31:57 PM EDT by jackt308]
ok,i've got a question here.i've been aware of the accessories vs. plain jane tactical AR15 debate for years,and i see quite a bit of it on here. So,i'm curious about opinions. kind of a poll,if you will. i spent 4 years in the parachute infantry, which probably did have a bit of an effect on my views (it's nearly impossible to get PERMISSION to use a stripped M4),but here goes.

i have a bushmaster flattop m4 style setup, with standard 4 way rail system on the front. i have a SureFire M900AB foregrip light with red nav lights on bottom,night ops gladius mounted on the left in scope rings,eotech 552 on the flattop,and standard Backup Iron Sight. Obviously,my setup adds a good bit of weight,but it works for me.i shoot better with a bit heavier weapon,after having been a SAW gunner for 2 years,our version decked out with 200rd drum weighing 25lbs (the SAW and accessories,etc,not just drum).i will always have a new appreciation of m4 class weapons,no matter how heavy,after doing quickfire drills with that for days on end. So,here's the real question. is it the simplicity of the setup,the reduction in things that can go wrong, the weight reduction, or what that makes stripped weapons so appealling. If the accessories were reliable enough to be trusted in an operator's opinion, would that make it merely an issue of preference,to go with stripped or decked out? this is simply a curiosity thread,fishing for opinions.....so,i should get approximately 6 billion postings,since we all know what they say about opinions.....
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:00:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jackt308: So,here's the real question. is it the simplicity of the setup,the reduction in things that can go wrong, the weight reduction, or what that makes stripped weapons so appealling. If the accessories were reliable enough to be trusted in an operator's opinion, would that make it merely an issue of preference,to go with stripped or decked out? this is simply a curiosity thread,fishing for opinions.....so,i should get approximately 6 billion postings,since we all know what they say about opinions.....

The ARs I have right now are decked out for the most part. Rail system, VFG, Magpul stock, red dots sights, ACOG, Surefire lights, etc., etc. I like them and what I can do with them. However, the lightest one is 8.4 lbs unloaded. While it's not too heavy I know I can make a lighter rifle that is just as lethal.

So now I have started to figure out a lightweight configuration. This time I'm skipping the rail system and Magpul stock (I love them but they aren't light). I'm going for a 14.5" + FS pencil bbl too. It's not that I dont' have faith in the durability or reliability of my accessories. It's just that the more things you have on a rifle, the greater the odds of something malfunctioning. Who knows, after getting this rifle, I may strip down my other rifles but don't hold me to that.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:11:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 9:15:11 AM EDT by FUZ1ON]
I prefer the "Stripped Down" solid carry handle A2 with TA11 ACOG as I can pop the ACOG on and off as situation/enviro dictates and still have rock solid, nut on, real deal Irons Sights...and my personal preference is based on the fact that I absolutely loath any BUIS I've ever seen.

I also feel that heavily accessorized posess some nice amenities but...those same amenities...

1. Add weight
2. Can break
3. Often times needs batteries and spare batteries
4. Often times love to hang up on corner edges and brush

Make mine light, fast and slick please.

Also...with the acog's B.A.C. two eyes open aiming system?...I find that by mounting my acog high in the A2 carry handle that it actually gives me a much wider fov "Heads Up" view of things...and actually enhances the BAC feature as opposed to a "All Scrunched Down/Nose To The Charging Handle" veiw of things...which to me seems to grossly cut down on your periphial fov....thereby deafeating alot of the advantges that utilizing BAC can and does offer.

So there's my stinky opinion. LOL!!!

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 10:01:21 AM EDT
In ARF.COM fashion get both. That is my plan right now. About to order a Eotech, YHM 2 piece rail, and a tangodown VG.

Then I plan on building a plain jane 16'' A2 middy.

Damn this BRD.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 11:59:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
In ARF.COM fashion get both. That is my plan right now. About to order a Eotech, YHM 2 piece rail, and a tangodown VG. Then I plan on building a plain jane 16'' A2 middy. Damn this BRD.

IMHO, too many people who are starting out get too fancy an AR. I should know - I was one of them :) Look at it this way. Start off with a stock AR and see what you can with that. After shooting it a bit, then start to think about adding accessories to it. Accessories do nothing unless you can shoot the rifle itself well. If you can already do that, then move on to the spiffed out AR.

It makes more sense to start with the basic AR and see if it's really what you want. If you want more, you can always buy it later and the added cost is neglible.

If you get a decked out AR and you decide that you don't want/need all of the extras, you lose money.

As much as I love these boards, far too often people get caught up in all the spiffy gear. There were plenty of people shooting well and having fun before there were rail systems and VFGs.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 12:11:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 12:16:23 PM EDT by Harv24]
I agree Totally with Matt_B. if your just starting out you should keep it KISS simple. Master the basics. To many will attempt to buy Precision and skill with accessories instead of using ammo and constant practice. As you progrees in your skill level then you will feel the need to add some things to enhance (Notice I said enhance, ) your skill to the next higher level

It's my View (Based on a lot of range time observation) that the majority of AR owners are Fun shooters and would benifit very little from many of the accessories available as they do not shoot from positions other then benchor sitting or Standing, etc. Once you start to get off the bench and shoot from various positions and start moving you find things like VFG's can enhance your speed and accuracy and your ability to Place rapid pairs on tgt and close and intermediate ranges,etc. having a Light enhances your ability to ID and engage tgts in low or No light. Red Dot Optics start to enhance your ability to aquire and engage tgts at a greater speed and with better presicion then Irons,etc.

BUIS are their to provide you with a redundant sighting system in the event you primary sight goes down.

These are not really required for fun shooters, Highpower or 3 gun shooters or Plinkers at the Quarry,etc.

Just my $.02

P.S.
Keep in mind that for close to 9 years, I ran a slick16" HBAR Bushmaster with a Fixed carry handle and standard handguards. No VFG, No Light, no rail. As I increased my skill set I added accessories that enhanced my performance. I kept the things that worked for me and I ditched the stuff that did not based on my experience and that of others who I respect for their opinions and their real worl experiences.

Add accessories because they help you shoot better or provide a need, not because they look cool, everybody else has one or your thing they speed up your learning curve. cause some guy with a Slick AR who has practiced the basics over and over with lots of rounds will come along and make you look like a dummy......
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 12:17:01 PM EDT
since we are chiming in with opinions here.............

I have one decked with rail, light, ACOG, BUIS LMT/SOPMOD stock, vertical grip, single point sling set up, and other assorted 'enhancements.

Then I have a couple as plain jane set ups.

I enjoy those every bit as much and sometimes more so.

I am thrilled to have a full on tactical rig, but love the simple as well

In ARFCOM tradition, you really do need to get both!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:08:01 PM EDT
jackt308,

I would give you the same answer that you would probably give to FNGs asking you what to pack for a deployment. It depends on what you are doing (mission specific).


There is a time and a place for everything, and battle optics have shown over and over that they are superior to standard iron sights in many/ most situations. That being said, a stock stripped weapon never runs out of batteries, and there is little to get caught up on anything.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:13:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
.I find that by mounting my acog high in the A2 carry handle that it actually gives me a much wider fov "Heads Up" view of things...and actually enhances the BAC feature as opposed to a "All Scrunched Down/Nose To The Charging Handle" veiw of things...
L8R, Bill.



I'm with you on this observation, I love my TA31 on my A2.


Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:29:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 3:58:24 PM EDT by jackt308]
i should probably elaborate somewhat on my posting.for the purpose of this thread,i was specifically referring to real world setups/preferences,not just fun shooting.as far as failures go,let us refer specifically to taclights,lasers,things of that nature.let's leave out sights/BUIS's,since some folks just hate BUIS's,and obviously the one non-negotiable is a redundant system for your electronic sight. the obvious drawbacks of taclights,lasers,etc are the added weight, need for batteries, and possibility of malfunction, and a little less obvious is overdependency on all the nifty little features. As for the added weight,in my opinion,anything you add to an AR15 will not make it particularly unwieldy,weight-wise.yes,clearly,some things stick out further than others,so they can catch on things.that tends to be a common sense thing,in my opinion: if it sticks out too much,take it off. as for the need for batteries,that's just one of those things.they don't weight much at all,but i know from experience how much it sucks to need yet another pocket or pouch. when it comes to failure/malfunction, well,if they do fail,then you're no worse off than if you didn't have it in the first place,UNLESS you don't also train without them,even though they're mounted.in my opinion,you should train using/not using all your accessories,so you're used to it if they do fail. i used to love a stripped down AR15 as well as anyone,but after 4 years with a decked out M4,i adapted to the idea,as long as all systems had built in redundancies. so,now that i've beaten the horse's corpse to a bloody pulp,i'm going to end for now.


PS.one more thing: as for the acog on the carrying handle,i think it's a good idea,except for the fact that it raises your point of aim so high.makes for a bad stock weld,and quite a difference in line of sight and the axis of the bore. that's just my thought on it,though.bottom line is,everyone has their own set of things that work.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:09:21 PM EDT
Argueing that the possibility of an accessory (except non-backed up optics) failing as grounds for not having one makes no sense at all. The flashlight hanging off your rail does not make the weapon itself any more prone to failure. If the batteries die, the light may go out, but then it's just like not having one in the first place--it doesn't affect the functionality of your rifle. The only reason not to have an accessory that will help you do the job is weight.

As far as having an ACOG, if something impacts it hard enough to make it unusable, chances are it would have made the carry handle unusable as well (they are both aluminum). Obviously, an Aimpoint or Eotech will add the potential electronic failure as well.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:16:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 4:23:42 PM EDT by jackt308]

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Argueing that the possibility of an accessory (except non-backed up optics) failing as grounds for not having one makes no sense at all. The flashlight hanging off your rail does not make the weapon itself any more prone to failure. If the batteries die, the light may go out, but then it's just like not having one in the first place--it doesn't affect the functionality of your rifle. The only reason not to have an accessory that will help you do the job is weight.




well,not quite sure if that was directed at my last comment or not,but if so,then you just said the exact same thing i did.i agree completely with everything you said.good job but in case i was unclear in what i said (case in point,the following statement)


when it comes to failure/malfunction, well,if they do fail,then you're no worse off than if you didn't have it in the first place,UNLESS you don't also train without them,even though they're mounted


i meant that,you have nothing to lose by having any given accessory on there, except a little added weight.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:25:47 PM EDT
If almost everything on my rifle broke, I would be right where the KISS guys started.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:59:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jackt308:

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Argueing that the possibility of an accessory (except non-backed up optics) failing as grounds for not having one makes no sense at all. The flashlight hanging off your rail does not make the weapon itself any more prone to failure. If the batteries die, the light may go out, but then it's just like not having one in the first place--it doesn't affect the functionality of your rifle. The only reason not to have an accessory that will help you do the job is weight.




well,not quite sure if that was directed at my last comment or not,but if so,then you just said the exact same thing i did.i agree completely with everything you said.good job but in case i was unclear in what i said (case in point,the following statement)


when it comes to failure/malfunction, well,if they do fail,then you're no worse off than if you didn't have it in the first place,UNLESS you don't also train without them,even though they're mounted


i meant that,you have nothing to lose by having any given accessory on there, except a little added weight.

No jack, that was not directed at you, I just saw several other posts bring it up.


If almost everything on my rifle broke, I would be right where the KISS guys started.

Everything I spent a paragraph trying to explain summed up in one, concise sentence. Nicely put Combat_Jack.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:01:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:14:05 PM EDT
hehe.if i used the same tactics with my fiance i use on here,i would SOO be out on my ass. as for combat_jack,good job. you have a way with words,my friend....were you ever a politician...? jk,jk,i get the impression you're from the other end..just a guess.thanks for the opinions,by all means,keep em rollin
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:21:31 PM EDT
Just to be clear, it's not about the reliability of accessories, it's about maintenance. The fewer things you have on your rifle, the few things you have to maintain. Batteries wear out (especially lights) and rail systems get loose (has happened to me twice).
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:24:09 PM EDT
I like mine simple...
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:25:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
I like mine simple...

Exactly. Less things on the rifle, less things to be concerned about.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:28:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt_B:
Just to be clear, it's not about the reliability of accessories, it's about maintenance. The fewer things you have on your rifle, the few things you have to maintain. Batteries wear out (especially lights) and rail systems get loose (has happened to me twice).



true enough.still better to have quality accessories than crap.as far as lights go,you're very correct,and in my opinion,especially on an operational carbine,the batteries should be swapped on a regular basis,and ALWAYS checked before a days work. as for rails,true as well: in my experience,the ARMS SIR is the only one i've seen that hasn't loosened up. you are correct,the less to maintain,the better,but the advantages on some things outweigh the disadvantages.it's up to the operator to decide which ones fall into that category.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:33:23 PM EDT
the bottom line of this thread/debate,as far as i can tell,is there is no right or wrong. it depends on a number of things,to include operator experience,preference,level of comfort with the weapon system,competence with various setups,etc etc.some people are more confident with a stripped rifle,some with all the gadgets,and in the end,confidence in the weapon system and being able to use it instinctively is a greater advantage than any other. that's just my opinion but hey,that's what we're all posting anyhow.thanks for all the responses,and by all means,keep em coming.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:36:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jackt308:
ok,i've got a question here.i've been aware of the accessories vs. plain jane tactical AR15 debate for years,and i see quite a bit of it on here. So,i'm curious about opinions. kind of a poll,if you will. i spent 4 years in the parachute infantry, which probably did have a bit of an effect on my views (it's nearly impossible to get PERMISSION to use a stripped M4),but here goes.

i have a bushmaster flattop m4 style setup, with standard 4 way rail system on the front. i have a SureFire M900AB foregrip light with red nav lights on bottom,night ops gladius mounted on the left in scope rings,eotech 552 on the flattop,and standard Backup Iron Sight. Obviously,my setup adds a good bit of weight,but it works for me.i shoot better with a bit heavier weapon,after having been a SAW gunner for 2 years,our version decked out with 200rd drum weighing 25lbs (the SAW and accessories,etc,not just drum).i will always have a new appreciation of m4 class weapons,no matter how heavy,after doing quickfire drills with that for days on end. So,here's the real question. is it the simplicity of the setup,the reduction in things that can go wrong, the weight reduction, or what that makes stripped weapons so appealling. If the accessories were reliable enough to be trusted in an operator's opinion, would that make it merely an issue of preference,to go with stripped or decked out? this is simply a curiosity thread,fishing for opinions.....so,i should get approximately 6 billion postings,since we all know what they say about opinions.....




Here's plain Jane for you -

However not a Jane underneath - The this a WOA build Wilson SPR barrel upper with a WOA DCM float tube. Armalite mount for the scope with 30mm 1.5-6x scope. Rail system not needed yet. Works from point blank range to 400 meter shots very easy.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:10:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CK:

Originally Posted By jackt308:
ok,i've got a question here.i've been aware of the accessories vs. plain jane tactical AR15 debate for years,and i see quite a bit of it on here. So,i'm curious about opinions. kind of a poll,if you will. i spent 4 years in the parachute infantry, which probably did have a bit of an effect on my views (it's nearly impossible to get PERMISSION to use a stripped M4),but here goes.

i have a bushmaster flattop m4 style setup, with standard 4 way rail system on the front. i have a SureFire M900AB foregrip light with red nav lights on bottom,night ops gladius mounted on the left in scope rings,eotech 552 on the flattop,and standard Backup Iron Sight. Obviously,my setup adds a good bit of weight,but it works for me.i shoot better with a bit heavier weapon,after having been a SAW gunner for 2 years,our version decked out with 200rd drum weighing 25lbs (the SAW and accessories,etc,not just drum).i will always have a new appreciation of m4 class weapons,no matter how heavy,after doing quickfire drills with that for days on end. So,here's the real question. is it the simplicity of the setup,the reduction in things that can go wrong, the weight reduction, or what that makes stripped weapons so appealling. If the accessories were reliable enough to be trusted in an operator's opinion, would that make it merely an issue of preference,to go with stripped or decked out? this is simply a curiosity thread,fishing for opinions.....so,i should get approximately 6 billion postings,since we all know what they say about opinions.....




Here's plain Jane for you -www.hunt101.com/img/315526.JPG

However not a Jane underneath - The this a WOA build Wilson SPR barrel upper with a WOA DCM float tube. Armalite mount for the scope with 30mm 1.5-6x scope. Rail system not needed yet. Works from point blank range to 400 meter shots very easy.



CK
Nice setup. Obviously a reverse photo, though.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:40:22 PM EDT
Thanks - Nope - It's the real deal - It's a lefty!
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:53:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt_B:

Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
In ARF.COM fashion get both. That is my plan right now. About to order a Eotech, YHM 2 piece rail, and a tangodown VG. Then I plan on building a plain jane 16'' A2 middy. Damn this BRD.

IMHO, too many people who are starting out get too fancy an AR. I should know - I was one of them :) Look at it this way. Start off with a stock AR and see what you can with that. After shooting it a bit, then start to think about adding accessories to it. Accessories do nothing unless you can shoot the rifle itself well. If you can already do that, then move on to the spiffed out AR.

It makes more sense to start with the basic AR and see if it's really what you want. If you want more, you can always buy it later and the added cost is neglible.

If you get a decked out AR and you decide that you don't want/need all of the extras, you lose money.

As much as I love these boards, far too often people get caught up in all the spiffy gear. There were plenty of people shooting well and having fun before there were rail systems and VFGs.



I started simple. Now I want some extra goodies. I planned on getting a red-dot when I bought the rifle because I have never been that great of shot. With my BUIS (YHM flip up) I was nailing a 12'' steel plate at 200 yards everytime. Tooks me awhile to get used to the sights on the AR system but now I shoot very well with it. Now I wish I just had an A2 upper.
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