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Posted: 12/27/2002 12:49:05 PM EDT
OK, Bud_Burma said "do it" - so here I go!

I've got three 80% castings in my hands and I'm going to do this deal - who's with me? - Hoo-rah!!! :)

The list appears so far to be:

This is easy guys, Alpha Company blazed the trail and we're hot in the footprints of Bravo Company - although that won't deter us from telling Delta "how tough we had it in the old days!" :)

Sounds off!
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 2:25:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2002 2:27:59 PM EDT by postino]
I'm for it! [:)]

I believe I'm "on hold" for the castings; I haven't heard a confirm from William yet (I assume he's busy washing...ummm...baby clothes...) but I haven't heard any bad news yet either...
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 4:35:01 PM EDT
Thanks for taking the lead. My friend Slabside45
would like to join in also.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 8:44:15 PM EDT
CHARLIE Company...Way to go men. Looks like you've got (7) on board & how many will you take?

Yes, I thinx Mr Snelling has been busy....berry berry bizzy. I understand that his newborn son goes through diapers like a fish goes through water!!!

Well done CHARLIE Company...well done :o) Bud
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 3:01:18 AM EDT
I have ordered 2 castings from Tannery shop, and will probably be ready to start drillin' in about a month or so.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:11:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By offctr:
I have ordered 2 castings from Tannery shop, and will probably be ready to start drillin' in about a month or so.
View Quote

I had contacted William about two also, but the posts at the Bravo Squad thread are a bit unclear about what needs to be done - here's a quote from tannery_shop -


So, what needs to be prepped before drilling???

Also, if we can get organized here, who & how contacts William about the jig rental and informs him who we are, where, etc??? It'b be nice to get a Squad newslist (or even a Forum) started to keep members abreast of what's happening, where everyone is in their build, problems faced and/or solved, who has the jig and does it need repair (worn bits/reamers), etc...

I've read dropdbombnow's walk-through, and the one at Rodderus, and from the picture at Tannery Shop it doesn't look like there is a guide in the jig for the buffer tap, so I was planning on the shell reamer with the upper guide to bore & thread my receiver...(just thinking out loud, my coffee isn't done yet)... [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 12:22:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 9:54:52 PM EDT by Bud_Burma]
postino...I believe that it's safe-to-say that Snelling was "thinking out loud" when he posted his query about the (11) from Illinois thing.

I do not believe there is any prep work that needs to be done when you use the jig that Snelling is offering. If there is anything...it's pretty slight. The jig that our squad used was not like what you'll get from the TanneryShop and that part of our squad's website could/can cause some confusion.

As far as who does what & when...you figure that all out within the squad. Somebody proposes something & everybody gives an aye, nay or at least a shot at some in-poot.

Plot all your locales on the US map...figure out who should get there jig first, which men(if any) are close enuff in proximity to meet-up & work their castings together.

The first order of business is the INVITE. You're squad has that done.

Next you need to fill your roster...I suggest a count of 7, 8, 9...up to 12 tops.

Then comes the info gathering & planning. It works well to have one person gather all the squad info...you'll need a volunteer for that, eh. Stuff like, name, contact, # castings. That all then gets sent to Snelling. Once your squad's castings are ordered & paid for, the jig gets sent out.

Some of the "planning" part is: Establishing a schedule & agreeing on the amount of time each man has with the jig & tooling is important. Our squad agreed on (2) weeks per man. Also, an agreed mode of shipping & required communication between the men exchanging the jig izza plus. Our time table got shottahell PDQ. When we did use the confirmation of delivery/receipt...it all worked slicker than boiled okra.

One of our men, dropdbombnow, secured a website FORUM where we could leave messages, make announcements, ask questions & pow-wow when needed(aka chat). That helped to keep alotta squad business & bruhaha off of the AR15.com boards & helped us all to stay focused. Contact dropdbombnow if you need any info on website/forum arrangments.

Hope some/all/any of that helps...Bud

edited to delete: a bunch of the jig comparison bruhaha  
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 1:58:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bud_Burma:

...O yaa shoore yoo betchya there's a guide... Snelling has(or at least had) a good step-by-step on his TanneryShop website...Snelling's LINKS section & find AFRetired's url...
View Quote

Heh, heh...If I had that much room in my garage, I'd buy one... [:D]

Couldn't find AF RTD's url; that section of his site keeps crashing on me...

But I'll figure out some way to line it up & bore it...Probably with a sleeve in the upper to guide a reamer & then grind down a tap to fit the sleeve, too...

That's all a long ways down the road...
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:29:49 PM EDT
Reporting to muster, is space available in Charlie or Delta?
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:48:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 9:57:04 PM EDT by Bud_Burma]
bsafe...I betchya that Charlie Company will be glad to have ya aboard. To get started...contact kestrou & ask to be put on the roster shown at the beginning of the string.

postino...I'll check on Dave's site. There may be a mirror site to the instructions. Snelling had mentioned making a video of step-by-step jig use. I know that he provides detailed written instructions but I do not know if the video has been shot. I'll call him & ask. Trust me on the tooling part though...you won't need to make/grind/cobble a thing. That jig is one hellofa tool...Bud

postino...yes, dropdbombnow did create that wonderful reaming device for us...itza hunny...Bud
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:57:05 PM EDT
...you won't need to make/grind/cobble a thing....
View Quote

So I won't need shoes???... [:)]

The jig picture on Williams site doesn't show any guide (that's a tool guide, not a video or step-by-step instruction sheet) on the jig, which was what I was referring to...

I liked dropdbomb's walk-through, and the idea of using the upper for a reamer/tap guide sounded like a good one (his idea I think it was)...
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:31:06 PM EDT
Yup - time to get the real organizing started!

A total count of 10 sounds good, so far we've got 8:


I need e-mail addresses and locations from all.  Post here if you're not shy, otherwise you can hit me directly: kestrou@nexlan.com (and I'm in Danville, IL).

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:29:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kestrou:
Yup - time to get the real organizing started!

I need e-mail addresses and locations from all.
View Quote

Mine is on the way! I'm in the Buffalo NY area (roughly!)
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:45:12 AM EDT

Perhaps we want to consider breaking Bravo, Charlie, and Delta groups up by geographical region?  I am just getting back from Vacation (just got married... again?) so I need to contact the group that I was in contact with for Bravo.

I am in Eastern PA and most of the respondants I have are East Coast guys with a few elsewhere.  If we redivide the teams by location it may be possible for smaller teams to work together on these lowers?

I'll be working on getting my list together and confirming who is in or out.  From there we can decide how to work together on dividing up the teams!  

I still have not received my two lowers but I am sure they are on the way!  Glad to see everyone is still interested and I'll be looking at how the heck to do this now that my life has returned to something of a more normal status!

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:51:13 AM EDT

I'm flexible on that.  I'm slowly getting together the list of addresses for Charlie and happy to "compare notes" and I'll take the MidWest.  I'll be contacting those I haven't heard from in the next day or two to get addresses & commitment.  Since Charlie's not quite full yet (believe there's one open spot left) I don't know if there's been much action on Delta Company yet - if you know who's "point" there, drop me a line.

Note my off-board e-mail address (kestrou@nexlan.com)

Regards and thanks for the great idea!

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 12:41:38 PM EDT
kestrou - mail sent.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:04:16 PM EDT
OK, I've had numerous men listed appear for muster, but am still missing contact info (or even a firm commitment) from the following:


Are you guys AWOL?  Or ready to mount up and storm the drill presses?

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:37:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 5:44:30 PM EDT by postino]
Originally Posted By Bud_Burma:
...have a look at the PIC showing the jig & tooling. Note the reamer & tap. Do you see the 3/4" hole through the shaft on each? That's where the pilot shaft goes through...
View Quote

Bud -

That's on dropdbombnow's site??? At -



I don't see a hole through the tap...

I was thinking that a nylon bushing for the upper would be better than a steel wrist pin...And maybe get a tap ground/bored to fit a shaft into the nylon bushing in the upper...Instead of standing it in a drill press with pressure on it...

Dropdbombnow's method worked great, much better than having to buy a lathe and make a fixture for a 4-jaw chuck...(like on Williams site)...
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:39:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bud_Burma:
...I understand that his newborn son goes through diapers like a fish goes through water!!!...
View Quote

No ejection problems, hmmm???...

Must not be having any Failure To Feed problems either, then...  [:D]
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:08:49 PM EDT





Link Posted: 12/31/2002 8:40:13 AM EDT
William congrats, Kestral you have IM, will resend Email.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:08:49 AM EDT
Builders Squad Charlie Update:

(Thanks to dropdbombnow for the logo!)

I've heard from everybody and we've had a couple decline to join the team at this point.  So we're at six confirmed members at this point:


The states we cover include: CA, IL, NY, OH, PA and WI - so we're geniunely "sea to shining sea".

So, we're still looking to add about four more to the squad and the idea has been floated that since Bravo Company is also just getting started possibly we can "swap members" with the possibility of being able to get people physically together to work on these (I mean, wouldn't it suck if you were in Charlie and unbeknownst to you there was a member of Bravo in the same town as you also machining?).  This is still only an option at this point, so if you have strong feelings one or the other, let me know.

Also, there's an effort underway at http://www.concealcarry.org to organize BIY/AR (and in fact they refer heavily to the original Alpha Company), so I'm going to be dropping a line over there to see if there are any interested parties.

My goal is to have metal filings flying by the end of January.

Happy New Year all!

Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:06:28 AM EDT
Hey, we currently have 20 castings on order with Tannery.  Should be in about a week.  I also have a OSI Jig on order due in January.  I have been working with forgings myself.  I'll check this thread periodically.

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:37:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 6:38:36 AM EDT by Bud_Burma]
Originally Posted By postino:

Bud -

That's on dropdbombnow's site???
View Quote

postino...No, on William's site. Look on the 80% Casting Completion page...he may have a PIC of the set-up on his inventory page as well.
Those baby puns you posted are a hoot...FTF & Ejection...hardeeharharhar.

It appears that AFRetired's jig tutorial is gone..why? dunno...i hope that it reappears. I asked William about instructions and he replied "yes, there are instructions with my jigs...no, there is not a video yet...and, although similar to AFRetired's jig, the ones I have are not tooled to perform the lower extension reaming/tapping actions in the same way". From what William explained to me I gather...the jig(s) he will let-out to the squads will make the lower extension operation a snap.

About the ConcealCarry site...Alpha Company has no affiliation with them nor do we promote any other group/organization...we don't oppose any either. We are Americans...We are builders....and we've got the coolest jacket patch around...hu wah!!! hahaha

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:12:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bud_Burma:
No, on William's site. Look on the 80% Casting Completion page...
View Quote

That's where I've been looking...There is no provision for a buffer tube guide in the pics of his jig there...Just an engine lather with some custom-made fixtures for turning & single-point tapping the hole...

I guess this is the basis for the confusion...You must have a pic somewhere showing a jig similar to the OSI jig with a buffer tube guide...
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:25:51 AM EDT
[blue] I would be interested in getting  in on this . I have a few questions first.

1: Would a drill press be good to finish the 80% lowers ?

2 : If so what other tools (clamps , jigs or whatever ) would be needed ?

Anyone else in the Philly area interested in perhaps getting together like Quaterbore suggested .

Jerry [/blue]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:28:50 AM EDT
Heya slidestop...A drill press is not required but it shoore duz help :o) The tooling, jig/bits/punches/taps/reamer etc are included with the TanneryShop jig set-up. There are several other men in PA...I believe you'll see them on the Bravo and/or Charlie squad rosters. Probably room for one more :o)  Bud
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 9:05:53 AM EDT

We've got a man in Charlie in PA, but he's close to Pittsburgh.  I know there's other East-Coasters in Bravo and we'll likely coordinate closely between the squads.

With your permission, I'll add you to the Charlie roster and we'll go from there!

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 9:32:02 AM EDT
I would like to get involved in this project. where do I start???

Live Large
God bless America and all she stands for
Happy New Year 2003
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 9:56:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 9:57:12 AM EDT by kestrou]

Greetings!  I'm co-ordinating the roster for Charlie Company - hit me offline with your e-mail address and snail-mail address.

My e-mail is: kestrou@nexlan.com (kestrou@kestrou.com works also).

Welcome aboard!  You'll bring our total to 8, so we're still looking for two more.

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:08:26 PM EDT
[blue][b] Email sent [/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:11:46 PM EDT
Any room left in Charlie company?

I'm about an hour from Philadelphia.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:12:06 PM EDT
Slidestop replied to your IM, I am just outside Pittsburgh. ALL FYI I spoke with William yesterday and he told me that a drill press is not required with his jig. A vise and a hand drill will suffice as long as the user is careful and takes thier time. See his website for a picture of the jig and bits. A few more PA guys and we can either meet and pass the jig on or set up a date/place and finish a bunch at once.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:08:31 AM EDT
223Rem (cool name for ar15.com :) )

Charlie's roster is currently at nine.  If you want in then, then gimme a "Hoorah!"

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:37:00 PM EDT
I hope you are counting me!  I am definately in..  and in IL as well.. Kestrou..you have my info...
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:21:07 PM EDT
I sent an E-mail to slidestop and 223 inviting them to join BRAVO.  I didn't do this to steal members but instead to see if we can't have a group of guys all on the same team that are from the Philli and surrounding areas!  This will reduce shipping costs and times for the Jigs and tools plus allow us to really work as a team if possible!

Our list is full at 10 or 11-members BUT I will continue to accept anybody that is in the Philli areas (NY, NJ, DE, MD, PA) so that we can all work together on these and perhaps share in the process and learning curve.

Like we said, let's compile the lists but I would like anybody in my own local to try to join BRAVO even if we need to split BRAVO into an A & B group.  After we have a list, and I am still trying to get everybody on my team confirmed, we may have some members switch teams for no other reason than making a reasonable use of shipping and shared resources!

Anybody on BRAVO that wants to stay... no problem!  Anybody like Charlie or DELTA, no problem as well!  It's just a suggestion that will save some money and perhaps allow us all to make some new friends!

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:08:13 PM EDT

Lovely photos of Williams jig here:


Also linked from his site.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:03:14 PM EDT
Here’s an update as of 3 Jan 2003:

I just got off the phone with William Snelling (yes, I could hear the new little Snel-let in the background) of the Tannery Shop (http://www.tanneryshop.com) and here’s where we’re at… (my apologies if I’ve misquoted you on anything, William!)

William has been *buried* in orders – not just from us faithful defenders of the homeland, but also from foreign countries (not to worry, all “friendlies”) – and due to the holidays and recent childbirth is slightly behind on getting the 80% castings in and shipped out.  He expects to be completely caught up within the next few weeks.  William was surprised at how fast Bravo Company filled up (and certainly wasn’t expecting Charlie hot on its heels) so he’s just getting the jig in early next week from being machined.  His plan is to then make a video showing how it’s used so it can be included with the jig (also plans to include some laminated blueprints) but it will take a couple of weeks to shoot, edit and make multiple copies of the video.  Bottom line: the jig isn’t expected to be shipping to the first member of Bravo until 3 to 4 weeks from now.

Well what about Charlie?  William clearly sees that he’s “created a monster” and will need at least one more jig in immediate service as it will take months to wind its way through Bravo; so he’s in a scramble to come up with another (before Delta Company forms!), hopefully in about 6 weeks.

William will be coordinating the initial shipping of the jigs and stressed that since we have so many people interested that he would like to see it forwarded only to people that have their castings “in hand” so it doesn’t go to someone and then sit and wait.  This is also a good reason to try and get people physically together so we can get multiple team members working at once.

OK, gang, that’s the news – I wish we were seeing metal filings flying sooner but we’ll get there.  I discussed the jig in detail with William and it’s *really* nice – will be worth the wait and with a video in hand should make this project simple.

I’ll be posting updates about every week or so.  If you’re getting this in e-mail then you’re on the roster and won’t be forgotten.

Molon Labe!

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:08:59 PM EDT

William will be coordinating the initial shipping of the jigs and stressed that since we have so many people interested that he would like to see it forwarded only to people that have their castings “in hand” so it doesn’t go to someone and then sit and wait.
View Quote

That sounds like good sense. Maybe those with their castings in hand should notify you and so state...
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 1:28:52 PM EDT by 223Rem]
Yeah, what Quarterbone said.

He found me wandering the streets, hungry with no shoes on my feet, brought me inside and I thought I was going to get a hot bowl of soup!

Instead he asked me to join Team Bravo.  

Yo bud!  I'll still hungry.[;)]

Is it possible to get %80 forged lowers.  I would prefer to pay the extra over cast lowers.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 2:23:14 PM EDT
80% forged lowers would be nice I have a 0% I picked up at the last show I am currently using as a bookend till I get a mini mill. I saw that M&A parts had mag well broached/top plane milled, forged lower for $85 and I wish I had picked it up as the mag well broaching seems to be the most dificult and complex part of the whole process of completing the lower and might be a little too much for a beginner. I want to do a few of the 80% cast lowers first then move on to a forging later. It would be nice if someone could come out with a forging that had the mag and fire control wells done and a few things like the mag catch groove and bolt hold open slot already cut more like an 80% than an 0%.Even a 50% or 60% forging would be nice.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 3:24:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 3:25:57 PM EDT by 223Rem]
There is but a little pricey considering their 80% forged lower is about $40-50 more than a stripped complete from RRA or Eagle Arms.

[url=http://www.shadetreearmory.com/index.html]Shade Tree Armory[/url]

I shot them an email to see if they offer quantity discounts on their Stage III lowers.  I think is would be worth it if the price got knock down $25-30 per unit.  Don't see this as a problem if we can get members from Team Bravo and Charlie to go in.  I'll be good for 3.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 5:13:09 PM EDT
223Rem...Yes, those forged project lowers from Shade Tree are BOSS. There may be a way to shave alittle off of the price...maybe. Write or call them...ask Bill if you can send a 0% forging in for credit on a % completed forging. That's just a suggestion, eh...no guarantee that'll fly.

Have you looked at the forged project lowers from Les Baer? he's got the lowball price on an entry level forging...around $80ea.

ARs4ever Rick might have something available...I think he was tooling up for something new in the AR15 line...maybe he'll chime in with some in-poot...Bud
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 12:00:28 AM EDT

Lovely photos of Williams jig here:


Also linked from his site.

WILLIAMS LOOKS LIKE THIS: http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/MVC_010S.JPG

Link Posted: 1/4/2003 3:49:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tannery_shop:

WILLIAMS LOOKS LIKE THIS: http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/MVC_010S.JPG

View Quote

William -

So, your jig has no guide for the buffer reamer/tap???
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:31:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 10:02:31 AM EDT by Bud_Burma]
postino...I gave-up on trying to send the PIX to you & here's my shot at getting the PIX posted...

snafu link...try typing it in
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:42:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 9:58:49 AM EDT by Bud_Burma]
These two PIX should show William's jig...one with a casting in place & the other with all the tooling layed-out.

postino...the ONLY jig that I have seen/used that has a functional reaming/tapping fixture is AFRetired's. After seeing William's I believed that it too had that provision. William explained how it works on his but I wasn't listening when he told me. I'm sure that the instructions will "tell all". The jig shown on berry's site is from OSI. It is what our squad used & it appears to have a reaming/tapping fixture built into it...appears is the operative word. Our SuperJig was an early model and it needed some serious debugging...the lower extension guide was on the jig problem list. I understand that Alex OSI now has the SuperJig thoroughly debugg'd...enuff about that, eh...here's the other jpeg(or link) of the jig Snelling has...Bud

flunked again...you'll have to type in the URL to get to the PIX...sorry about that
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:47:40 AM EDT
I agree the forgings may be a better looking and stronger lower but for the $60 ea we paid for William's Castings I find it dificult to spend $150 for the forgings.  

With that said, if we are spending the kind of hours it will take to finish one of these lowers perhaps the extra money isn't a bad idea?  Having owned a EA J-15 cast lower, I am sure I will like the product built from William's cast lowers!
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 12:38:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 1:28:19 PM EDT by postino]
Bud -

Cutting & pasting the URL works...But, as in the pic William linked, it still doesn't show any guide for the buffer reamer/tap...

The OSI jig does...

Does Williams' jig *have* a guide for the buffer tube hole, or does William just provide a bushing for the upper that the reamer & tap slide into???

Edit: Builders Squads, A B & C, and Bud_Burma, please excuse me if there's something obvious here that I simply can't see...No fooling, on GoatBoy's advice, I switched browsers (to newer ones that still can't stay logged in), so if there is something on those pages posted above that I'm missing, I'd be obliged if someone would point it out...
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 1:36:45 PM EDT

It appears that AFRetired's jig tutorial is gone..why? dunno...i hope that it reappears. I asked William about instructions and he replied "yes, there are instructions with my jigs...no, there is not a video yet...and, although similar to AFRetired's jig, the ones I have are not tooled to perform the lower extension reaming/tapping actions in the same way". From what William explained to me I gather...the jig(s) he will let-out to the squads will make the lower extension operation a snap.
View Quote

postino...No, the reamer & the tap are not piloted. I thought I'd answered that(or Snelling did) awhile back. My apology for not being clear in my previous post. The reamer pilot that we have is the one that dropdbombnow made. Our jig is not used for that operation. We pin an upper rcv'r to the lower...vise it up...insert the bore guide & pilot the reamer through the extension tower...the tapping is done free hand. You'll find that the 1 3/16" 16 tap walks right through the T6 & CMM alloys. Glad you got to see the PIX...Bud
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 1:53:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 1:54:27 PM EDT by postino]
Originally Posted By Bud_Burma:

postino...No, the reamer & the tap are not piloted...
View Quote

OK; I got it now! I had said (I thought I had said?) that I thought I would make up a Nylon bushing for the upper and use that to guide a reamer & tap into the back of the lower.

I liked dropdbombnow's idea, but I'm fairly shy about using a steel bushing, even one with tape wrapped around it, in a soft aluminum housing...

Sorry for wasting everyone's time reading these off-topic posts! [:(]
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