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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 7:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 7:43:50 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]
came as my father inlaw paid me a surprise visit today...because after hearing how happy I was with my new Patrolmans Carbine and ACOG TA11 he just hadta drive over to bum a cup of joe and take a looksey and I'm still swabbing his drool off my kitchen floor. LOL!!!

But the interesting moments came at my kitchen table as he started firing questions at me challenging my decision/choice to go AR over such rifles as the invernable AK series or the M1A1/M-14 series as I then snatched my ACOG equipped A2M4gery off my kitchen table with one hand and said...look...here's why...as I descibed and demonstarted to him the absolute ergonomical superiority of the AR format.....showing him how...

1. The pistol grip positioning allows/permits a "relaxed wrist/perfectly straight back trigger pull" and...

2. How convieniently located, easy to operate, quick and "always at the ready" the thumb safety is and...

3. How (unlike the AK) your trigger hand NEVER hasta leave the grip to operate the thumb safety, mag release and trigger and....

4. How you can drop-free a spent mag and then load a full mag and send the bolt flying home with your off-hand while your trigger hand never leaves it's grip position and continued fire never hasta miss a beat...and how quickly this can all happen with a minimum of practice and familiarization and...

5. How in just moments and the push of a pin you can field strip the entire carbine for cleaning and....

6. How that ACOG is always on and at the ready with....no batteries required....ever.

He couldn't get over how light, compact and fast handling it was...and he absolutely loved the ACOG asking...

"So this thing glows red like that at night too huh?"

Me: Yep.

Him: "And it doesn't use batteries?"

Me: Nope.

Him: "And it's good out to about 300yds ya say?"

Me: "Yep."

Him: "Mahhhn....I have GOT to get me one of these!!!"

Thought ya'll might enjoy me sharing that...L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:56:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:57:18 PM EDT
To bad you are in Florida, I think you and I would enjoy a beer.



Where are the pics of the completed project?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:11:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
To bad you are in Florida, I think you and I would enjoy a beer.



Where are the pics of the completed project?



Thanks Stickman but...I think we'd probably enjoy more than one!!! LOL!!!

It's not really "completed" yet but here's the latest pic....



and outside of a side-sling arrangment and maybe some "e-clip/no-walk pins" and an accu-wedge I'm probably not gonna do much more to'er...except a lot of shooting....maybe a higher grade trigger assy. but I'm gonna wait and see.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:18:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:21:48 PM EDT by Creeper]
I would never put the AR15 into the combat rifle designation, modified, super supplied needed, varmit rifle maybe. You forgot to mention the one thing that the AK has which the AR does not have, reliability under almost any condition, any abuse. I like my ARs but in a pinch I would take an AK over the AR. You could litterally go an entire war without cleaning it, it won't jam even if you ran 80,000 rounds through it until the ejector is sheared off then it will still run even with crushed shell casings in the rear of reciever (Yugoslavian torture tests), even if you left it in a stream till the selector lever rusts to the side of the reciever then put a fresh clip in and run it (Vietnam), drag it seven Kilometers by chain behind a truck to the firing range to test it (first torture test in Russia), it won't break if you drop it or step on it, bury it in mud, etc.

The AK is the greatest combat rifle for extreme conditions. You take one look at what the Afghan soldiers are carrying and you would know. They have leftover AK's from the Russian invasion over two decades ago that are still being used in combat today. You think they have armorers? Don't think so.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:30:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:39:28 PM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I would never put the AR15 into the combat rifle designation, modified, super supplied needed, varmit rifle maybe. You forgot to mention the one thing that the AK has which the AR does not have, reliability under almost any condition, any abuse. I like my ARs but in a pinch I would take an AK over the AR. You could litterally go an entire war without cleaning it, it won't jam even if you ran 80,000 rounds through it until the ejector is sheared off then it will still run even with crushed shell casings in the rear of reciever (Yugoslavian torture tests), even if you left it in a stream till the selector lever rusts to the side of the reciever then put a fresh clip in and run it (Vietnam), drag it seven Kilometers by chain behind a truck to the firing range to test it (first torture test in Russia), it won't break if you drop it or step on it, bury it in mud, etc.

The AK is the greatest combat rifle for extreme conditions. You take one look at what the Afghan soldiers are carrying and you would know. They have leftover AK's from the Russian invasion over two decades ago that are still being used in combat today. You think they have armorers? Don't think so.



1. Who ever goes "an entire war" without cleaning their weapon is an idiot.
2. Whoever goes 80,000 rounds without cleaning when their life depends on it, is an idiot.
3. Whoever leaves their rifle in water until it rusts is an idiot.
4. Whoever drags their rifle behind a vehicle ON PURPOSE even, is an idiot.
5. Whoever steps on their rifle is an idiot.


Brilliant analysis however of the weapons selection and procurement of the Afghan National Army...orrrrrr which ever Afghans you're talking about.

Thank you for sharing.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:38:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
then put a fresh clip in and run it


I haven't seen one of these new "clip fed" AK's, can someone post a photo of one?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kisara:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
then put a fresh clip in and run it


I haven't seen one of these new "clip fed" AK's, can someone post a photo of one?




Those are special ,and dedicated to the 80,000 round no-cleaning AKs. Its hard to find them in the states.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:00:42 PM EDT
Hrm, I'm probably a wrench in the gears.

I'd rather have an M-14 in a combat situation, simply because I prefer the conventional stock and it's action.

I'm an AR lover , just finished my fourth build and wouldn't be disappointed if I had no other choice but to carry one, but as far as personal opinion goes I really prefer the M-14.

God bless the US where personal opinion is king hall
That being said, I rather enjoy this thread. An AR lover is born easy. Out of my 40 weapons, the AR's always get the most attention from house guests. What's not to love about the things?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:00:51 PM EDT
Very nice Fuzion. I'm jealous of that ACOG. Hows the cheek weld with it mounted to the carry handle?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:13:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I would never put the AR15 into the combat rifle designation, modified, super supplied needed, varmit rifle maybe. You forgot to mention the one thing that the AK has which the AR does not have, reliability under almost any condition, any abuse. I like my ARs but in a pinch I would take an AK over the AR. You could litterally go an entire war without cleaning it, it won't jam even if you ran 80,000 rounds through it until the ejector is sheared off then it will still run even with crushed shell casings in the rear of reciever (Yugoslavian torture tests), even if you left it in a stream till the selector lever rusts to the side of the reciever then put a fresh clip in and run it (Vietnam), drag it seven Kilometers by chain behind a truck to the firing range to test it (first torture test in Russia), it won't break if you drop it or step on it, bury it in mud, etc.

The AK is the greatest combat rifle for extreme conditions. You take one look at what the Afghan soldiers are carrying and you would know. They have leftover AK's from the Russian invasion over two decades ago that are still being used in combat today. You think they have armorers? Don't think so.



Sorry creeper but I'll give you this...back when the M-16 first made it's debut by being "Rushed Into Service" in the beginings of a heated nam?...yes....the then well esteablished AK was far more reliable however...the M16/AR has since been brought up too and far beyond any and all virtues the AK ever posessed thereby reducing any recent AK supremacy claims to nothing more than urban myth.

I myself went through several AK's and while I appreciated their simplistic design?...the somewhat crude (if not shoddy) and greatly varying levels levels of manufactured quality spans the charts...as do the RECENT reports of AK reliability...but as of this moment?...the AR has surpassed any and all legendary claims the AK has ever held...to boot?...

1. I observed many AK's experience a number of failures in tactical rifle competitions.

2. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK bolt can not and does not "Lock Back" after the last shot is fired and has no feature to lock the bolt back. So the AK armed combatant/competitor is left either counting shots fired or, tossing live rounds away doing tactical reloads or...left squeezing the trigger until the firing pin finally goes...."Click".....Also....

3. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...mag changes are at best "Slow & Clumsy" by comparison and...

4. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...ya either patrol with "The Safety In The Off/Fire Postion" (I'm certain your squad buds ahead of you will appreciate that one) or?...you hafta REACH over your rifle with your offhand or have your trigger hand leave it's grip position to actuate the sheet metal dust cover/safety into the fire position and....well...imho?...that just sux and...

5. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK is a straight gas blow-back system as opposed to the locking lugs of the AR which will always yeild a much higher level of accuracy from the AR....as opposed to the "Thrilled to hit a paper plate at 100yds AK" and...

6. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK has no recoil buffer system making shot-to-shot-recoil-recovery times much slower than the AR....hell...I can triple tap at 25 yards with an AR and keep'em in a baseball sized group...but try that $hit with an AK. LOL!!!

and finally?....

7. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...most AK's are made by oppressed workers functioning in sweat shops owned by communist governments.

That's about it and L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:15:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I would never put the AR15 into the combat rifle designation, modified, super supplied needed, varmit rifle maybe. You forgot to mention the one thing that the AK has which the AR does not have, reliability under almost any condition, any abuse. I like my ARs but in a pinch I would take an AK over the AR. You could litterally go an entire war without cleaning it, it won't jam even if you ran 80,000 rounds through it until the ejector is sheared off then it will still run even with crushed shell casings in the rear of reciever (Yugoslavian torture tests), even if you left it in a stream till the selector lever rusts to the side of the reciever then put a fresh clip in and run it (Vietnam), drag it seven Kilometers by chain behind a truck to the firing range to test it (first torture test in Russia), it won't break if you drop it or step on it, bury it in mud, etc.

The AK is the greatest combat rifle for extreme conditions. You take one look at what the Afghan soldiers are carrying and you would know. They have leftover AK's from the Russian invasion over two decades ago that are still being used in combat today. You think they have armorers? Don't think so.



Sorry creeper but I'll give you this...back when the M-16 first made it's debut by being "Rushed Into Service" in the beginings of a heated nam?...yes....the then well esteablished AK was far more reliable however...the M16/AR has since been brought up too and far beyond any and all virtues the AK ever posessed thereby reducing any recent AK supremacy claims to nothing more than urban myth.

I myself went through several AK's and while I appreciated their simplistic design?...the somewhat crude (if not shoddy) and greatly varying levels levels of manufactured quality spans the charts...as do the RECENT reports of AK reliability...but as of this moment?...the AR has surpassed any and all legendary claims the AK has ever held...to boot?...

1. I observed many AK's experience a number of failures in tactical rifle competitions.

2. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK bolt can not and does not "Lock Back" after the last shot is fired and has no feature to lock the bolt back. So the AK armed combatant/competitor is left either counting shots fired or, tossing live rounds away doing tactical reloads or...left squeezing the trigger until the firing pin finally goes...."Click".....Also....

3. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...mag changes are at best "Slow & Clumsy" by comparison and...

4. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...ya either patrol with "The Safety In The Off/Fire Postion" (I'm certain your squad buds ahead of you will appreciate that one) or?...you hafta REACH over your rifle with your offhand or have your trigger hand leave it's grip position to actuate the sheet metal dust cover/safety into the fire position and....well...imho?...that just sux and...

5. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK is a straight gas blow-back system as opposed to the locking lugs of the AR which will always yeild a much higher level of accuracy from the AR....as opposed to the "Thrilled to hit a paper plate at 100yds AK" and...

6. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK has no recoil buffer system making shot-to-shot-recoil-recovery times much slower than the AR....hell...I can triple tap at 25 yards with an AR and keep'em in a baseball sized group...but try that $hit with an AK. LOL!!!

and finally?....

7. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...most AK's are made by oppressed workers functioning in sweat shops owned by communist governments.

That's about it and L8R, Bill.




Good post
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:21:22 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]

Originally Posted By Hunterex:
Hrm, I'm probably a wrench in the gears.

I'd rather have an M-14 in a combat situation, simply because I prefer the conventional stock and it's action.

I'm an AR lover , just finished my fourth build and wouldn't be disappointed if I had no other choice but to carry one, but as far as personal opinion goes I really prefer the M-14.

God bless the US where personal opinion is king
I can state it, but shall never force it.

That being said, I rather enjoy this thread. An AR lover is born easy. Out of my 40 weapons, the AR's always get the most attention from house guests. What's not to love about the things?



Hunterex....I used to have a softspot in my heart for the 14's as well...unquestionably one of the worlds great and highly accurate combat rifles....until I watched a few tactical competitors try an run a 10-75 yd tactical course with'em...they're great for their intended purpose (long range/lotsa punch stuff) but.....most would get their bacon smoked attempting to use such in a tactical situation at anything less than 100 yards...maybe 200.

Save the 14 for short-medium range sniper work...but if ya wanna live?...grab yer AR.

JMHO and L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:28:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Very nice Fuzion. I'm jealous of that ACOG. Hows the cheek weld with it mounted to the carry handle?



Thanks and....not bad at all man...you're only raising your head up an eyeball or two....and I'm still well able to get great cheek orientation...matter of fact?....with the "Two Eyes Open" BAC sighting system I actually prefer to have my head slighty raised like that as I get a much better view and am able to "periphially keep tabs" on everything around me....as opposed to grinding my cheek down on the stock with the upper blocking part of my much larger...much fuller....view of things.

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:01:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:02:17 PM EDT by model927]
Patton once said the .30 M1 rifle was the greatest battle implement ever devised.The M14 was the end of development for that design and although not a frontline rifle is still in service with the navy and others.I love the AR but I dont think its the greates combat rifle ever especially when talking about service life or years used.I own alot of ARs but I own M14 clones to.A rifle whos only down falls are weight of the rifle and ammo.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:19:09 PM EDT

5. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK is a straight gas blow-back system as opposed to the locking lugs of the AR which will always yeild a much higher level of accuracy from the AR....as opposed to the "Thrilled to hit a paper plate at 100yds AK" and...


I hate to bust your bubble, but the AK is not blow back, and it does have locking lugs..

But the AR is more accurate, well it has to be, what with lower round count before cleaning, and the anemeic cartridge it fires..

Don't get me wrong, I love ARs as much as the next guy, but to call it the greatest combat rifle ever, is a little far fetched..

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:48:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:53:21 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

5. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK is a straight gas blow-back system as opposed to the locking lugs of the AR which will always yeild a much higher level of accuracy from the AR....as opposed to the "Thrilled to hit a paper plate at 100yds AK" and...



"I hate to bust your bubble, but the AK is not blow back, and it does have locking lugs."


No you don't....you love busting bubbles...well..one of 7 of'em of'em anyways...but I digress...you are correct...the AK does have locking lugs...my bad....owned several of'em in the past myself but it's been many years since I took a gander at the internals....you win....one bubble officially burst. LOL!!!


"But the AR is more accurate, well it has to be, what with lower round count before cleaning, and the anemeic cartridge it fires.."


Ya mean like the SS109/M855 that goes through 1/4" steel trauma plates at 100yrds like a hot knife through butter?....those anemic rounds? LOL!....tell ya what...you keep on feeling like a man MISSING with all those loud, harsh recoiling, heavy 124grainers....and I'll stick with my small but accurate and... "anemic"?......5.56's. LOL!!!

"Don't get me wrong, I love ARs as much as the next guy, but to call it the greatest combat rifle ever, is a little far fetched.."



Tell ya what....I'm gonna split this one with ya...cause honestly?...I just meant to share what transpired (and my explaination/demonstration) this afternoon with my father-inlaws visit....and after I had already posted this?...I even felt as though I may have "Mis-Termed The Thread Title"....and I should've entitled it.."The Worlds Best Defensive Combat Rifle/Carbine"...which imnsho the M16/AR format truely is.

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:55:23 PM EDT
Hmmm......AR vs. Ak vs. M14 and everything else.

Never would have figured this would have spiraled into that old pissing match.

BTW, the AK sux....
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:10:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:12:04 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]

Originally Posted By swingset:
Hmmm......AR vs. Ak vs. M14 and everything else.

Never would have figured this would have spiraled into that old pissing match.

BTW, the AK sux....



He11....I got one better than that! LOL!!!

I never would've figured anyone with an AK would even attempt to champion it against a late model M16/AR!!! LOL!!!

Oh.....you can neglect and abuse an AK and it'll still fire alright....but I guess that means the guys who supplied'em already knew that a lot of'em would be gett'in dropped in the mud...



along with their owners. LOL!!!

Not to mention....check it out....the NZP just ordered up 880 Bushmasters for $3 Million....could you imagine the following?...

Dear Bushmaster....I have Million Man Army...upgrading rifles...please send quote.

LOL!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:29:10 PM EDT
FUZ1ON--

Love all of your numbered lists, gonna have to print them off and use them to help end discussions on the AR/AK topic.

thanks
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:37:22 PM EDT
And here I thought this was going to be an Enfield thread
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:38:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:49:15 PM EDT
i don't know of the romanian semi AKs are made worse than the '80k round ak' in the middle east,
but i've seen these romaks jam- a lot actually.
i'm still trying to find one for myself, for cheap....new.

my buddies gun (romak--wasr) rejects wolf and brown bear, i would think they would (most probably do) eat everything you throw at them)

point is AKs jam too,
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:02:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Not to mention....check it out....the NZP just ordered up 880 Bushmasters for $3 Million....could you imagine the following?...


$3,400 for each rifle?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:13:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Not to mention....check it out....the NZP just ordered up 880 Bushmasters for $3 Million....could you imagine the following?...


$3,400 for each rifle?



Yep....but that includes training, 500rds (supplied) break'in and parts and service....how much training?...how long parts & service?.....I do not know.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:59:14 AM EDT
Fuz1on,

Good post and good job with the father in law. Enjoy your rifle.

Off topic I've trained and seen many AKs malfunction. Any weapon when mistreated and neglected with fail the owner. Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you.

CD
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:02:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WIgunnut:
And here I thought this was going to be an Enfield thread



Now you're TALKING!!!



That's a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:32:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kisara:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
then put a fresh clip in and run it


I haven't seen one of these new "clip fed" AK's, can someone post a photo of one?



pwn3d
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:05:27 AM EDT
As one friend once said, "If you can hit consistantly a small target (2"x2" maybe) at 100yrds with an AK47, I've got a bridge I'll sell you."

we all know the AK gave up it's accuracy for durability. I'm more worried about bringing down a target at 100 yrds or more through marksmenship, than going through a decade war with 80,000 rounds through it, not to mention that the likely-hood of a soldier going through such a war to survive is almost nill, I'd take the accuracy and cleaning once a week.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:49:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 11:50:18 AM EDT by markmcjunkins]
Just a thought, maybe your next up grade should be a flattop upper.

As far as the greatest combat arm ever, you have my vote. 40 plus years and kicking ass all over the world.

New orders are coming in for them all the time.

I hope the day never comes that I need to grab my rifle, but if it does I hope my enemy has AKs.

junk
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:28:50 PM EDT
6. I hate the fact that unlike the AR?...the AK has no recoil buffer system making shot-to-shot-recoil-recovery times much slower than the AR....hell...I can triple tap at 25 yards with an AR and keep'em in a baseball sized group...but try that $hit with an AK. LOL!!!


Better be able to tripple tap with it..LMAO. See what happens when a chest get hit w/ 123 grains... No need to tripple tap. = Threat over.

I love the AR. I have a M-16. Never owned a AK. I do have a SKS that was given to me as a teen. If I had to choose life or limb between

AR w/ 30 round mags
M-16 w/ Beta mags or 30 round mags
SKS w/ 10 round internal mag and ammo on striper clips...

I can say that the SKS has never failed... Peroid. place a striper clip into top, push ammo in, slap it on the ass, and run it for 10 rounds, 100% of the time. Repete if needed. It tooks weeks to get the M-16 to run right (not an un-common thing, go to bowers sight). I think the first point that was made about the AK IS valid. If torture tests are invalid, why are they preformed on every weapon system sold to law enforcement these days... Let's not be too far fetched here... I do agree that a FACTORY ar these days would / should not have a problem running similar to my experiences with the SKS. Bring in the touture and the tide would change in a heart beat.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:38:59 PM EDT
I trained on the M16 and the AR15 would be my first choice, because of it. I respect and would like to own a Garand, and a M14 also.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:42:32 PM EDT
Long-time lurker, first-time poster. This is the thread that I had to post on!

Up until several years ago, I had no use for the AR. My father-in-law stopped by one Sunday afternoon following one of his NRA highpower matches. He used a stock Colt 20" HBAR and he talked me into shooting a few rounds. 15 minutes later, we were shooting the tops off of 20oz soda bottles and I was having the time of my life.

A few months later, he asked me to go with him to a match and the day before the match, he dropped by with a Colt 16" HBAR A3 Carbine. Said that if I was going to the match, I was shooting in it. The first rounds I put through it were during the "Standing, slow fire" match in a pouring rain. He had warned me not to feel bad because I was only using a 16" when everyone else was using 20's. Long story short, I outshot him in my first match and haven't looked back since.

He is now my EX-father-in-law, but still my best friend. Prior to the divorce two years ago, I returned both the AR and the FAL he had given me, but this summer, while taking the kids to see him, he says, "Let's go look at our toys" and heads for his gunroom. After drooling over the multiple AR's, he pulls a box down from the top of one of the safes and says, "Here, this needs a home." Of course, inside was my 16" HBAR A3.

I am now shooting the hell out of it and looking for a "few" upgrades to transform it into my housegun. I may just break down and get an RRA upper, but still haven't decided. FUZ1ON, thanks for an excellent thread and enjoy the times with your FIL.

Bob

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:43:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:43:46 PM EDT by MauserMark]
think about this, why did the Israelis choose the M4/M16 over their own kick ass version of the AK, the Galil?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:55:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
think about this, why did the Israelis choose the M4/M16 over their own kick ass version of the AK, the Galil?


The Galil is still in use with the IDF.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:58:29 PM EDT
FAL 'nuff said
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No1Here:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
think about this, why did the Israelis choose the M4/M16 over their own kick ass version of the AK, the Galil?


The Galil is still in use with the IDF.



Not in the amount of use as the M4/M16. I have rarely seen in the last 5 years or more a pic of an IDF soldier with a Galil. I've only seen settlers sometimes carrying Galils.

-mark
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:03:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By No1Here:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
think about this, why did the Israelis choose the M4/M16 over their own kick ass version of the AK, the Galil?


The Galil is still in use with the IDF.



Not in the amount of use as the M4/M16. I have rarely seen in the last 5 years or more a pic of an IDF soldier with a Galil. I've only seen settlers sometimes carrying Galils.

-mark


They're here and there. IDF is using more optics now. Galils never had a rail for an optic, that I know of. Plus they get funding from us and so they spend it on our old M16/M4's.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:10:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No1Here:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By No1Here:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
think about this, why did the Israelis choose the M4/M16 over their own kick ass version of the AK, the Galil?


The Galil is still in use with the IDF.



Not in the amount of use as the M4/M16. I have rarely seen in the last 5 years or more a pic of an IDF soldier with a Galil. I've only seen settlers sometimes carrying Galils.

-mark


They're here and there. IDF is using more optics now. Galils never had a rail for an optic, that I know of. Plus they get funding from us and so they spend it on our old M16/M4's.


That's the biggest reason.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:26:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
FAL 'nuff said



+1

I've got 3 AR's and love them to death, fantastic weapons, accurate, reliable and infinetly customizable. I've got 5 AK's and love them too, the quintensential "bad guy" weapon, evil but also reliable and accurate enough to get the job done.

But if the SHTF and I reach in the gun cabinet, my hand is coming out filled with FAL. The FAL combines the best of all the worlds battle rifles in one package. Powerful, accurate, ergonomic, reliable and rugged. Easy to scope, adjustabe gas system, etc, etc. It's just got it all. Not that I'd feel underarmed with an AK or a AR, but if I only had one, I'd take the FAL.

Sweet rifle FUZ, I love the carry handle mounted ACOG. Despite the popularity of the flattop, for some of us the carry handle mount still a very viable option.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:47:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 3:52:59 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]
Klashnikov designed the AK as an idiots weapon. No I'm not calling AK owners idiots, but Klashnikov made the AK for people who didn't have the liberty of knowing anything about firearms. He himself said he designed it with both military and peasant use in mind. This equates to an easy to use, low maintenance firearm. However, accuracy and precision are sacrificed for the sake of ability to take misuse. I myself, am not looking for a rifle I can use as a porta-potty.

I think ensuring proper maintenance and function is mandatory. Reguardless of what the rifle is, I will always clean it and make sure by take down, it is in proper functioning order.

I look at it this way. You have a choice between a Pinto that can go 15K miles without an oil change, or a Corvette that can go 7.5K. You just have to decide which one is more justifiable to your needs.

Back on topic, glad to hear you opened someone else up to the AR15. Make sure you send him to the official black rifle disease website known as ArfCom.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:45:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:13:36 PM EDT
First?..Thanks loads for all the attaboys from my fellow AR fans here at arfcom...it certainaly made the typing and sharing of this post well worth while...Thanks.

2ndly...I've owned more than several AK's myself in years gone by and while I recognize they are typically reknowned and herolded for their rugged durability?....not all examples of the ones I owned and those that I observed in years of tactical competition displayed that "Always Go Bang/Flawless Rugged Durability"...and due to extremely wide variences in quality? (btw...I just love how on some examples?..the pin they insert to lock the barrel to the reciever looks like one hung low trimmed it too length with one swift blow of a hammer and cold chisel. LOL!)....but for me?...and many of my shooting buds?...buying a new AK became sort of like going on a "Blind Date"....and ya hear folks say "She's Got A Great Personality" but....ya never really know whatcha got till ya take her out to the range and put'er though some paces...and I've seen everything from...

"Accuracy seemed acceptable till she went runaway full auto!"

to...

"She runs like a swiss watch and gobbles up ammo like a hungry pit bull but...couldn't hit sand in the same place twice if it kept falling off a parked camel."

But I did have one Norinco MAK91 that was pretty damn good...as far as AK's go...except it weighed a ton with a milled reciever and long barrel..and on a good day with quality ammo (I even slugged the barrel for a .313 bore size and found Lapua 7.62X39 as the best fodder) she could hold grapefruit sized groups at 100yds....kinda like mini14'ish sorta accuracy...but that was the best of'em...the others?...oh they'd start out looking like they were gonna shoot a decent 5-6" group and then all of a sudden, outta nowhere?...and for no good reason?...a flier would come winging outta there...and when I say flier?...I'm talking almost off the target at 100yds and I'd be like... wtf?...and between the poor accuracy and the shoddy craftsmenship?...I just found it to difficult to ever actually fall in love with any of my...uhem..."Blind Dates".

What I love about the AR's is their absolute ergonomic superiority and unmatched levels of accuracy at the cyclic rates of fire they are readily and easily capable of....and imho?...no other weapon that fires a centerfire rifle cartridge is quite as fast handling (with many not nearly as accurate) as the M16/AR format rifles/carbine.

L8R, Bill.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:39:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Cool thread, Im glad it hasnt gotten out of control. Lumpy, that was great. "If you dont such and such, you're an idiot" Hahahaha!

Fuzion, I dont know where you are in FL, but if you are anywhere near Lake City, come out, with your dad, and shoot with us on Sunday!!! Check it out; FDCC



Already registered with FDCC just haven't posted yet and I'd love to make it this sunday but...wifey owns her own Hair Salon and this weekend is her once a year Hairstylist Convention in Orlando so...I gotta pull Mr. Mom duty this weekend with our daughters...maybe next month.

L8R, Bill.
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