

Excellent post as always.
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Very informative!
So, from a reloader's perspective, what is a good benchmark mean radius for match ammo? Providing a ten shot group at 100 yards. Is there a military specification? Just curious... I agree that extreme spread alone can be misleading. |
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Originally Posted By MK402: Very informative! So, from a reloader's perspective, what is a good benchmark mean radius for match ammo? Providing a ten shot group at 100 yards. Is there a military specification? Just curious... I agree that extreme spread alone can be misleading. I would say at 100 yards, a good benchmark would be a mean radius of 1''. ![]() |
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Originally Posted By MK402:
Very informative! So, from a reloader's perspective, what is a good benchmark mean radius for match ammo? Providing a ten shot group at 100 yards. Is there a military specification? Just curious... I agree that extreme spread alone can be misleading. Depends on what you want that rifle to do... Service/Battle accuracy? Match Grade? Hunting? etc... |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By MK402:
Very informative! So, from a reloader's perspective, what is a good benchmark mean radius for match ammo? Providing a ten shot group at 100 yards. Is there a military specification? Just curious... I agree that extreme spread alone can be misleading. Depends on what you want that rifle to do... Service/Battle accuracy? Match Grade? Hunting? etc... How about match grade? |
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Originally Posted By MK402:
How about match grade? Originally Posted By kingoftheroad:
I would say at 100 yards, a good benchmark would be a mean radius of 1''. ![]() This I think. |
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God Bless Texas
"... it's the socialism, stupid." - RL |
Originally Posted By Freakinout:
Originally Posted By MK402:
How about match grade? Originally Posted By kingoftheroad:
I would say at 100 yards, a good benchmark would be a mean radius of 1''. ![]() This I think. Is that a guess or something you have actually researched? 1 inch mean radius (average to center) would make about a two inch group give or take if I am reading this correctly. That's hardly match grade accuracy. |
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By MK402:
Originally Posted By Freakinout:
Originally Posted By MK402:
How about match grade? Originally Posted By kingoftheroad:
I would say at 100 yards, a good benchmark would be a mean radius of 1''. ![]() This I think. Ok. So its even worse, which was my point. So i guess something in the .5" or better is what I am looking for????? Thanks for the help. Any idea what the military spec for MK262 is? Is that a guess or something you have actually researched? 1 inch mean radius (average to center) would make about a two inch group give or take if I am reading this correctly. That's hardly match grade accuracy. Incorrect. The table below will give you an idea of the relationship between the mean radius and extreme spread. http://www.box.net/shared/static/e4ckmi2y36.jpg |
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Molon's calculations come from 3x10rd groups for each load, iirc.
ETA: Is the 'average to center' (ATC) calculated by on target the mean radius? I read the definition of mean radius in hatcher's notebook, and it would appear to be the same thing, just making sure I'm understanding it. |
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God Bless Texas
"... it's the socialism, stupid." - RL |
Originally Posted By Freakinout:
Molon's calculations come from 3x10rd groups for each load, iirc. ETA: Is the 'average to center' (ATC) calculated by on target the mean radius? I read the definition of mean radius in hatcher's notebook, and it would appear to be the same thing, just making sure I'm understanding it. Correct. |
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All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
In God We Trust. Everyone else needs to post data. |
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By MK402:
So, from a reloader's perspective, what is a good benchmark mean radius for match ammo? Providing a ten shot group at 100 yards. Is there a military specification? Excellent questions. A mean radius of 1.0” for 10-shot groups at 100 yards would be the mathematical equivalent of the accuracy acceptance standard for U.S. Military M193. As for match-grade ammunition, unlike caliber .30 and caliber 7.62mm ammunition, there has never been a National Match standard for caliber 5.56mm/.223 Remington ammunition. In 1965, the caliber 7.62mm Match ammunition was standardized as M118 . The 1965 lot of 7.62mm M118 National Match ammunition had an acceptance testing mean radius of 1.9” for 10-shot groups fired at 600 yards. At that time, this was the smallest acceptance mean radius ever achieved for National Match ammunition since records were kept, starting in the year 1919. Naturally, the ammunition was tested from machine-rested, bolt-actioned test barrels. The composite target pictured below shows the twenty-seven, 10-shot acceptance groups (that’s 270 rounds!) of the 1965, M118 National Match ammunition fired from the test barrels at 600 yards. The small circle has a diameter of 6” and the large circle has a diameter of 12”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/g3vdx4d8z5.jpg From American Rifleman, September 1965 http://www.box.net/shared/static/edok5vzo2s.jpg From American Rifleman, August 1962. Everything else being equal, (which of course, it seldom is) a mean radius of 1.9” at 600 yards would have a mathematical equivalent of 0.32” at 100 yards. Now, 100 yards is not 600 yards, but then, a semi-automatic AR-15 is not a machine-rested, bolt-actioned test barrel either. For this reason, I like to use the mean radius of 0.32” for 10-shot groups fired at 100 yards as the benchmark for match-grade ammunition, when fired from a semi-automatic AR-15. I personally prefer that my match-grade hand-loads have a mean radius “in the twos,” i.e. a mean radius of 0.2x”. My best hand-loads fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 at 100 yards have had mean radii “in the ones,” i.e. 0.1x”. The 10-shot group pictured below has a mean radius of 0.13”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/9vux4ug0du.jpg Here is the specification for the SASS MIL-PRF-32316 (AR) : 3 REQUIREMENTS 3.4.1.1 Accuracy/dispersion. After the optic sight is zeroed, the accuracy and dispersion of the SASS shall meet the following: 3.4.1.1.1 Accuracy. . The distance between the mean point of impact of each shot group, both unsuppressed and suppressed, shall be not greater than 1.1 inches at 300 feet. The distance between the mean point of impact of the combined unsuppressed shot groups and the combined suppressed shot groups shall not be greater than 3.14 inches at 300 feet. 3.4.1.1.2 Dispersion. The average mean radius (AMR) (see 6.11), of each shot group shall be not greater than to 0.68 inches at 300 feet. All targets shall be fired on using M118LR ammunition or equivalent, using five (5) round groups. |
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Hi , I have discover this very interesting topic meanwhile I was searching for group size measuring methods.
I think that it's very important to have a statistical view of this matter because is different to have a 10 shot group of 5 inchs with 8 holes in 3 inches tha a 5 inches group with all 10 shot within 3 and 5 inches. So i would share this knowledge with an Italian forum named " Armimilitari" that means " Militaryweapons" end in order to make this I obviously ask your permission in advance. Thankyou |
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Thanks for posting
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Terrific post. Thanks.
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can the photos be salvaged? This is a critically important thread.
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. https://welltrainedmind.com/a/classical-education/ |
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