Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 3/26/2009 5:58:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 6:04:05 AM EDT by jeffers_mz]
I found a pair of Colt 6721's, sequential serial numbers, NIB, at the gun show last weekend, and want to get them set up and running well before a tactical carbine class in six weeks. My standard ammo is XM-193. I have a small stockpile of BH reman, from 68 to 79 gr, for match shooting in my Bushy DCM, but would rather breaks these guys in on the 193 and stay with that.

I may be short on time if there are problems with delivery, in-stock versus backordering, etc, and want to move on this as quickly as possible.

To put these rifles in the configuration I want, I need:

1. Two lightweight free float forends, with enough rail for a flashlight, and a vertical grip/bipod, with good heat dispersal, that won't rip my hands up, etc.

2. Two lightweight good vertical foregrips that double as mini-bipods that may or may not include a flashlight mount and flashlight on/off switch.

3. Two lightweight good tactical flashlights with reliable on/off activation, preferably ones that use AA battery or batteries. I have a DPMS with a tac-light that uses a flat reed switch, the goo on the velcro backing that holds the reed switch melts loose of the gas block every time I shoot, but will not grip anywhere on the handguard due to surface irregularity. I need a much better solution for activating the light, this flat does not work.

4. Two good lightweight single point tactical sling attachments, the kind that fit where the buffer tube meets the receiver.

5. Two good lightweight single point tactical slings.

6. Any and all tools necessary to properly attach the above equipment to the rifles.

7. POSSIBLY a pair of micro red dot optics. I have a pair of Leupold CQ/Ts that will replace the removable carry handles today. I went this way knowing that the CQ/T is a bit slower in sight acquisition than the heads up red dot optics, because I can hold a two inch circle at 200 yards from a sandbag with the CQ/T on the DPMS. Basically a tradeoff of close in speed for better target ID and accuracy at longer distances. This optic has integral rails on the top and both sides, so a micro red dot type sight may give me better situational aareness and speed at close ranges, 0 to 50 yards, and allow me to use the variable magnification on the larger optic from 50 out to 200-300 yards.

In a perfect world, I could find all the above at one, online location that has every item in stock, but in this environment, I'll contact as many vendors and make as many separate orders as I have to. I'm looking for solid quality, accessories you'd be wlling to trust your life to, but I'm not looking to pay ridiculous prices just for a name or cool-factor. I want to pay for rock solid performance but not for a status symbol. I know enough on these subjects to have an idea what I want, but not enough to be sure i can order these parts once and get it right the first time.

If you guys here could bring me up to speed on a few specific model numbers, trustworthy vendors, an idea of what's involved regarding armorer's skills to get this done, and vendors most likely to have these items in stock, I'd really appreciate it.

Link Posted: 3/26/2009 6:31:14 AM EDT
hit up Larue, they should be able to get nearly all of that stuff to you in six weeks
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 6:57:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 7:01:59 AM EDT by DevL]
Number 2 does not exist. Forget light weight and a bipod and just get the Larue FUG if you want a VFG.

Forget AA tac lights... you wont find any.

For the light get either an upgraded Gladius from Strategos's online store or Surefire M600C Scout. Deal with the 123 cells. Use thumb activation not tape switches if possible. Use Larue mounts for lights if possible.

If you have not used single point slings previously Id highly suggest 2 point that attaches at rear of receiver and rear of rail. A DD Omega has built in sling mount for this. Id be getting BFG VCAS padded 2 point. More control but easy to go weak side.

Get Troy BUIS for rear.
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 6:59:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 7:00:19 AM EDT by PSI]
1. DD Omega 7", leaves your FSB intact. - Bravo Company

2. LaRue FUG, no need to have a bipod on a carbine. Learn your prone positions. - LaRue Tactical

3. Surefire G2 with Vltor mount. - G&R Tactical

4. CQD receiver end plate. - cqd.net

5. CQD single point sling. - cqd.net

6. Need a good lower action block, vice and AR wrench. Getting the Colt staked castle nut off to install the new end plates will be a pain in the ass.(It was on my 6721) - any of a dozen places

7. Aimpoint T-1 on Larue QD mount. - LaRue

You didn't mention BUIS. Go with Troy's.

Hope this helps
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 7:29:17 AM EDT
my $.02

1. Larue foreend (duh) or omega if you don't want to use tools.

2. stick with stubby grips, ditch the bipod (or get a harris/larue that you'll use occasionally but not leave on.)

3. G2L mounted on VTAC (both cheap and light yet solid) no separate cap needed really

4. I have DD and MI, either are fine.

5. I use gear sector, no complaints.

6. All you need is the handguard tool for the larue, but you can go tool free with a DD Omega (which will be a bit heavier)

7. you don't need a micro dot AND a cqt.



Link Posted: 3/26/2009 7:42:03 AM EDT
my $.02

1. Larue foreend (duh) or omega if you don't want to use tools.

2. stick with stubby grips, ditch the bipod (or get a harris/larue that you'll use occasionally but not leave on.)

3. G2L mounted on VTAC (both cheap and light yet solid) no separate cap needed really

4. I have DD and MI, either are fine.

5. I use gear sector, no complaints.

6. All you need is the handguard tool for the larue, but you can go tool free with a DD Omega (which will be a bit heavier)

7. you don't need a micro dot AND a cqt.



Link Posted: 3/26/2009 7:43:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 7:50:35 AM EDT by jeffers_mz]
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure I've seen bipod/foregrip combinations. Are you guys telling me they don't exist, or that they are crap, or that they are heavy, or what?

Best score for a 10 round string in prone at 200 is 97-5X, with a sling, but those take time to set up, get into, and don't seem workable with a tactical sling. I'm slightly better with a rest anyway, even the cheap two piece plywood one I made myself, and a sandbag is too heavy to pack with me. If I had to choose between a normal bipod and giving up the longer range precision, I'd keep the rifles light and give up the medium range accuracy, but a grip/bipod combination looks like an ideal solution. What am I missing here?

Staked castle nut on the buffer doesn't sound fun. I have a 2 point sling on the DPMS, stock and barrel clamp. The sling tends to get in the way of my shoulder mount on the rear, and sometimes, in the way of my sights on the front. What are my options for "quick" and "out of the way"?

With the CQ/T on the receiver, my rear BUIS can't flip up on the DPMS. At 45 degrees, it contacts the optic eyepiece. One of the downsides of the larger optic. With an etched reticle for use if batteries or electronics fail, and a micro red dot, and a BUIS that requires optic removal to use, do I really need an iron backup rear sight? I don't even know if there's a QD mount made for the CQ/T, but without it, I'm looking at using tools to remove the primary optic before a BUIS can even flip up and lock. By that time, wouldn't I be hosed anyway, if both optics fail at once and the etched retical is unusable as well. No objection to the weight or cost of backup irons, but if I can't use it without tools, is there really a point to putting it on?

I'm not trying to argue here, after all, I asked for advice, but I do want to understand what I'm doing and why, before I commit to it. I think I'll get more out of the class if the rifle is alrady set up the way it will remain for long term, so I only have time to do this once. If my thinking is cloudy here, please straighten me out.


Link Posted: 3/26/2009 7:58:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 8:03:10 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
I think you're referring to a Grip Pod www.grippod.com

Not my first choice-they aren't particularly steady.

ETA: No, I take that back. It's not the lack of stability that turned me off the most, it was the height of the rifle with the bipod deployed. It was awkward as hell trying to shoot prone, at least for me.
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 8:16:23 AM EDT
as a grip, it leaves alot to be desired.
as a bipod it's okay, but not half the harris in terms of a stable shooting platform.
but as a grip and bipod in one, it's pretty freaking good.

I have one on my M16A4 clone and on one of my do-all carbines.

If you absolutely want a bipod and grip on a 7.0 HG, the grippod is the way to go.

Link Posted: 3/26/2009 9:22:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
as a grip, it leaves alot to be desired.
as a bipod it's okay, but not half the harris in terms of a stable shooting platform.
but as a grip and bipod in one, it's pretty freaking good.

I have one on my M16A4 clone and on one of my do-all carbines.

If you absolutely want a bipod and grip on a 7.0 HG, the grippod is the way to go.




I built a quick and dirty "rest" for getting rough zeroes out of three pieces of plywood, a base, a lower vertical, and upper vertical with a semi circle cut from it, and two bolts with wingnuts for adjusting heigth. It's pretty shaky, especially fore and aft, but I can hold two inches at 200 yards with it, using m-193 in the DPMS with the CQ/T. That's good enough for my purposes on this project. Do you think the Grippod would be more stable, less stable, or about the same?

What makes for a good grip? Where does this one fall short? I want a decent grip first, with bipod capability second, and only if it doesn't interfere with it's primary use as a grip. What do you think?
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 9:28:38 AM EDT
if you're a broomstick holder, it'll be fine.

problems I have are that - for a grip:
its too long (duh! ),
it's got too much bulk on top (whereas the simple KAC seems to blend into the HG, the grippod has a box on top)
the attachment nut isn't exactly big enough to be qd or on the other hand small enough to be un-noticed.

having said that, it is install-able without having to slide it on like other grips.
Also it's shaped well.
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 9:42:52 AM EDT

What makes for a good grip? Where does this one fall short? I want a decent grip first, with bipod capability second, and only if it doesn't interfere with it's primary use as a grip. What do you think?

To me a "good" grip includes the following
- Comfortable (although I use mine as more of a reference point so comfort isnt all that important since my whole hand is not gripping the vfg)
- QD (for moving up and down the rail with ease)
- Solid and Rugged

It just so happens that the Larue VFG includes all of those along with the ability to change the size of it depending on how you prefer it. It is pricey, yet it is the best VFG I have used. Hands down.

As far as bipods go I would get a harris w/larure QD mount so it can come on and off the rail quickly when you feel like you need it.
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 9:45:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
if you're a broomstick holder, it'll be fine.

problems I have are that - for a grip:
its too long (duh! ),
it's got too much bulk on top (whereas the simple KAC seems to blend into the HG, the grippod has a box on top)
the attachment nut isn't exactly big enough to be qd or on the other hand small enough to be un-noticed.

having said that, it is install-able without having to slide it on like other grips.
Also it's shaped well.


What's a broomstick holder?

The attachment nut isn't small enough to be noticed...does that mean it tends to tear skin?

Would you use their system to mount a light?

Link Posted: 3/26/2009 9:54:47 AM EDT
If these rifles are being used for a tactical carbine class, you will not need a bipod. Being able to shoot on the move is what you will be learning. That, and making fast hits from behind cover or concealment if its available. There will be no "hunker down for headshots at 100 yards while I eat a sammich" if the course is any good at all. Making hits on COM at 100 yards is easy from a rested position behind concealment, like a barrel or car trunk. Bipods are for offensive use (against man, animal, or manimal), or target shooting, not for CQB/defensive carbine use.

This is from a local match, not a class, but here's an example:

Shoot and move

Disregard the pistol misses please!!


Link Posted: 3/26/2009 10:16:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
What's a broomstick holder?
Gripping the VFG like, well a broomhandle. Some use a vfg to reference where they put their hand and others actually grip the vfg with their whole hand.
The attachment nut isn't small enough to be noticed...does that mean it tends to tear skin?
I dont know as I havent personally used a grippod
Would you use their system to mount a light?
How exactly would you use a vfg to mount a light? I guess Im misunderstanding the question


Link Posted: 3/26/2009 10:25:37 AM EDT

How exactly would you use a vfg to mount a light? I guess Im misunderstanding the question




grippod now sells an attachment to attach alight to the grippod - it's now a 3-in-1.



Link Posted: 3/26/2009 10:33:35 AM EDT

What's a broomstick holder?

The attachment nut isn't small enough to be noticed...does that mean it tends to tear skin?

Would you use their system to mount a light?



the broomstick guys grasp it like they're a 12 year old who just found their first playboy

I'm on the current fad of using a stubby vfg as a reference point with a light at 11 oclock.

I was actually in your shoes in regards to my 6520.
I recommended a vtac mount for you cause it's simple, cheap and light.
But I prefer the light a bit father forward, so I used a FSB mount with a vtac light mount.

Shoot like this once and you'll be a convert:




With a grippod, this particular hold is ackward.
I'm not holding the grip or the hg here.
I'm holding the top of the grippod.
Very unnatural, but do-able:





What I recommend for you is to get the G2L in a (larue preferred, but at 1/8th the price ->) vtac mount in this config:









Link Posted: 3/26/2009 10:51:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
grippod now sells an attachment to attach alight to the grippod - it's now a 3-in-1.

O I've never seen that before...and dont think I would use it.

+1 on the pictures by the way. Thats EXACTLY what I was trying to explain to the OP.
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 11:31:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 11:40:45 AM EDT by jeffers_mz]
Okay, I think I'm getting this.

To get to a light mounted up at 11 o'clock, with my thumb, and hold the rifle comfortably, I have to high grip the VFG, actually a cross between gripping the VFG with my two lower fingers and the rail with my two upper fingers, and using the Grippod, the big box is in the way, makiing for an unnatural, uncomfortable grip, times 1500 shots over the three day class.

I know I won't be using the bipod in class. Thing is, the only real skill I have with a rifle so far is the long shot. I have other rifles that are much better suited for this, but having that capability in a CQ fighting rifle (theroretically) extends the utility of the weapon. The best odds say I'd never be fighting with a rifle anyway. I'm not in LE or the service, but I am becoming increasingly concerned about what I read in the papers and hear from other people about the global financial situation and the future. If the city dwellers rise up and start burning, and refugees ever make it out here to rural areas, I won't always get to pick where I fight. I might not get to pick which weapon is at hand either.

This is very open country, and the ability to shoot accurately out to 300 or 400 yards, combined with a solid CQ solution, would ease my mind considerably.

At the very same time, if the medium range accuracy comes at the price of significant reduction in CQ ability, I've effectively rendered the lighter carbine useless. It looks like it will come down to a matter of degrees...how uncomfortable the Grippod would be versus how much greater effect combining CQB plus medium range accuracy would yield.

Which brings me back around to the Gripod light mount. It looks like I could broomstick hold the Grippod below the big box at the top, and still reach a Grippod mounted light, without the big box getting in the way. Further, I could just use an "Add a Rail" on the bottom of my current handguard, and get around the installation, expense, and sharp edges of a quad rail.

I see the problem with this. The Grippod is comparatively un-tested versus the other solutions already offered so far in this thread. The Grippod light mount is even more of an unknown. I also wonder if the Add A Rail system is stable enough to take the abuse of a class or a fight as well. Three question marks in one potential "solution" is usually not a good way to start.

On the other hand, I don't have a vise, or a block, or the tools, and finding room for these (they are all on the long term list, AFTER I get a pole barn/workshop built) is going to be tough right now. I have an e-mail out to a friend with a good armorer's shop. If he's willing to install the fore-ends for me, I'll probably go with the Larue VFG and tac-light mount. If he can't get it done by class time, I may try out the Grippod solution and hope for the best. A light and/or VFG is not required for the class, so if it failed miserably, I'd be out the expense, but could use the stock fore-end that's on the rifle now.

Until I hear from my friend, I can't really make a decision, but if ayone has additional input on the subject, I'm all ears.

There's another variable here, that might make all this a waste of time. I suspect I got lucky with the DPMS that holds 2 inches at 200 yards. My other DPMS has not shown that level of accuracy to date, (30 rounds so far) and I have no guarantee the Colt's will either. If the rifles won't shoot 1 moa, the whole question of a bipod just disappears.

As for the other answers given in the thread, I haven't forgotten them, and I definitely appreciate the timely responses, but the question of the fore-end is really central to a lot of what I'm trying to do with these rifles. I'll be getting back to the other info once the central issue comes clearer.



Link Posted: 3/26/2009 12:49:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 12:51:27 PM EDT by chapperjoe]
one note: the grippod is NOT untested. not even close!
It is in WIDE general-issue use by our armed forces (I know USMC bought a couple hundred thousand [ETA: 198,190] dunno bout Army).

I can count on my left hand the reports I have personally seen of failures - legs flopping, not locking, etc..
(of course I'm sure there are more than I've seen, but not enough to make serious noise.
heck, even aimpoints fail once in a while!)

The Heros who have reported back online say they love the harris bipod but it's a little too bulky to run the harris, the kac vfg, the laser AND a light on one forearm.

the grippod solves alot of that.

IMO, it fits in PERFECT on the M4 as currently configged.
For the M16A4's out there, I'd probably opt for a harris and vfg like the DMR/SDM's we see are set up.

It could be improved so much with a few little tweaks, like rounding out the box on top to blend with the handguard, a larue mount, non-skid feet, maybe even a stubby version!

The company does listen though.
They started out with an all metal one (I had two of those!)
Solid as heck, but two heavy.
Then they came out with the current polymer but metal-reinforced version.
They also have an all polymer one that sould suit most of the enthusiasts' needs.




Link Posted: 3/26/2009 12:59:27 PM EDT
Ok, that's good news.

Down to three variables.

My friend says he'll do the fore-end, IF his A2 blocks will fit this A3 upper. Headed out to test that out right now.

Variable 2 is how far backed up Larue is right now.

Variable 3 is whether these rifles will hold 1 moa, give or take.

More later, off to check variable 1.



Link Posted: 3/26/2009 1:06:45 PM EDT
........a Colt 6721 is NOT a rifle to worry about.
you got the right twist for that M193 too, so no worries about zero/consistency either.

larue's backup shouldn't be that much of an issue.
you can get a vtac moutn for 20$ while you wait for a larue (if there is a wait)



Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:45:17 AM EDT
Update:

The A2 blocks fit fine, check that off the list.

I called Larue, ordered the 7" fore-ends, G2s with mounts, and FUGs. She was pretty sure the FUGs and lights were in stock, not sure of the 7" foreends. She said they only machine one length foreend at a time, so if they're out of the 7 inchers, it will be a longer wait. I get an e-mail when something ships, until then it's a crap shoot.

I also ordered a pair of Grippods, the Grippod light rails, and some Add-A-Rails from US Tactical Supply. All the above were listed as being in-stock, so if there's any delay on the Larue foreends, I still have a solution in place before class.

Anyone have input on the Add a rail system for stability and durability? It mounts thru the holes on the standard foreend, without removing the FSB. Will it survive the class if it comes to that?

In the finest Arfcom tradition, I got both.

Now I'm watching e-mail, and looking into slings, sling mounts, and maybe some nice triggers.

Is a Jewell two stagetrigger a drop in solution for a Colt, or will it take tools and armorer's skills?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:34:05 AM EDT
You'll need punches for the trigger and hammer pins, that's it to install the Jewell.

If you absolutely must have a bipod, I'd recommend this





It takes up hardly any rail space, you can mount it right in front of your FUG. Bipod comes on/off quickly.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:40:46 AM EDT
I not a big fan of my issue grippod, but I do know it is tough as hell and does work as designed. It does a good job while sitting in defensive position because it allow the weapon to be rested ready to go pointed down range.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 1:16:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By R0N:
I not a big fan of my issue grippod, but I do know it is tough as hell and does work as designed. It does a good job while sitting in defensive position because it allow the weapon to be rested ready to go pointed down range.



What do you dislike about it, what is the downside, what could be better?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 2:03:37 PM EDT
It is a bit bulky and heavy; if you shoot with your thumb up than most of the time there is too much of it sticking down. Also, the thumb screw means it can only be mounted one way for people who shoot thumbs up.
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 6:55:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2009 6:55:58 AM EDT by chapperjoe]
I have to disagree on the parker hale / versapod bipod recommendation.
I had one and it was about as stable as gary busey.
In one word : Rickety.
this was a brand name versa pod, complete crap - I can't believe its front line issue on so many sniper rifles around the world. they must alter it from the stock config.
harris is proven, stable and solid.

Also, don't put a match trigger on a gun you want to depend on.... the std colt triggers are great IMO.
I've got four colts, never felt the need to replace any of the triggers.
On the other hand I've had over 5 or 6 of the 'match' triggers out there and dumped them all.
(the geiselle DMR is sweet, but overkill IMO - haven't tried the SSA yet)

Top Top