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Posted: 2/1/2003 2:47:53 PM EDT
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Ok...here is my problem. I have a RRA 16" bull barrel AR. The entire rifle is from RRA. When loading ammo I'm having some issues and stoppages. Its not stripping the ammo from the magazine properly. The bolt face is connecting to the back of the case and pushing it forward but the bullet is hitting too low of the feed ramp which will either cause a failure to feed jam or it will actually push the bullet into the case. I've tried Orilite mags, Steel mags and aluminum mags. Some of the mags I had when I was in the Marines and they never had probelms before. All steel and aluminum mags have some forward and backward movement. Not side to side. If I put my hand on the mag while loading or firing and push forward I have no problems and the rifle feeds and operates perfectly. If I take my hand away I will get a jam. The orilite mags do not have any movement but still jam the rifle up. This is happening with 45 and 55 grain bullets. I haven't tried anything larger than that but this rifle should load the 55 atleast. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, |
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KY23, We run into this problem quit often. Sometimes just tighten the mag catch one more turn will solve the problem. Sometimes it is the bullets that your using that could be causing the problems, such as hollow points or longer seated bullets that do not cam up before they reach the feed ramps. Myself, I have run into this problem a few rigs. What I found is that if you use a matchbook wedged into the back of the mag/well, you can keep the rifle running(band-aid). As for the permanent solution, Thank God for Colt M-4 feed ramp cuts. [url]http://ntdx.tripod.com/GT/007/001.htm[/url] P.S. This is not my web page, but will give you a idea of the exstended ramps. If you check around with the smiths, I am sure that they could perform a cleaner job than the photo's show(Homemade, and done with a dremil). |
| I had a center ind. mag that did the same thing. I could look in the ejection port and see the mag lips tilted foward A peice of duct tape on the back of the mag made it work, but I am particular about my projects and just got a good mag. I don't know if this helps, but I wouldn't use any steel mag in my AR. |
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So is this a problem with my receiver? Should I return it to RRA? I'm going to try another type of mag this next weekend. Its a steel mag made in England. I have a friend that has one and it seems to be alittle more tight in the gun. I've never had or seen this problem at all in all the Colt guns I've used. What is the actual cause? |
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I looked at my feed ramps and compared them with the pictures on the page provided. They look basically the same. Does RRA have the feed ramps pictured above by default? I have a few options here. 1. Should I send the gun back to RRA for inspection and repair? 2. Should I take the gun to a gunsmith for repair? 3. Should I buy a new (bushmaster) lower receiver? Any other options? |
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Quoted: [url]http://ntdx.tripod.com/GT/007/001.htm[/url] P.S. This is not my web page, but will give you a idea of the exstended ramps. If you check around with the smiths, I am sure that they could perform a cleaner job than the photo's show(Homemade, and done with a dremil). This is my web site. Yes, this is a "Dremil Job", but I am sure that you meant that in a good way. BTW, as a test, the mag can be hanging 1/8 - 1/4" below the mag catch, and it will still feed soft-points (blunt nose bullets). It does not look as good as a factory ramping, but it sure does damn feed 100%. I hate being parniod with my self-defense weapons. I have complete confedence that these "dremel ramps" will function every-time any-time. Which is more than I could say for the OEM Bushy ramps. Those damn OEM Busy ramps failed once... and only once because I took the Dremel to them to do the job that the factory should had done. |
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G35, I was not knocking your work, Hell I used your web page to show what can be done. It's just that it was freehanded, and does not have the precision of a fixed tool/mill. For a Wecsog job, I give it a strong 7. But on a rifle that may be sold at a later date, the imperfections of the freehand work would probably cause the rifle/upper a reduction in selling price. Dano |
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KY23, Don't send the gun back yet. Tighten the mag catch by one more turn, and try some other mags. When the bullet is feed from the mag, the case will tilt up once the shoulder of the round has made contact with the front of the mag. If the bullet is too long or has a blunt tip, then the round will sometimes strike the barrel just below the feed ramps before the round can be tilted up. What you may have is just mags that is not working with your rifle or a catch that is not holding the mags high enough. As for the feed ramps, they are a solution by Colt to allow the rifle (M-4) to run with about any ammo, no matter what the bullet style or octave may be. If you plan of running non-standard style bullets, I would look into having the ramps rework to prevent any future problems that may occur. Dano |
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Dano, Thank you for your help. I've used 10 different GI type mags (both alloy and steel) and one Orlite mag. All with the same results. I've tried 4 different types of ammo including SS109 and Federal American eagle 55 grain. A friend of mine at the range today tested a couple of my mags in his AR with no malfunctions. I also tested several of his mags an all had problems. This has been pretty frustrating, out of all the rounds I've put through Colt and bushmaster AR's I've never had problems like this. Thanks again for everyone's help. |
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I'll call them on Monday. Thanks for everyone's help. I was hoping it was something that I was doing wrong. I can't think of anything left to troubleshoot. I love my RRA rifle. The finish and accuracy are the best I've ever seen. I can shoot .5 MOA at 200 yards all day long. I was at the range yesterday and we were shooting a coffee can at 300 yards and hitting it every time. I have a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40 attached. The .223 is perfect for this scope. It shoots flat enough to hold dead on out to 200 yards and I use the first MilDot for 300 yards. I sighted the rifle in to be dead on at 100 yards and it is 1 1/4 inches low at 200 yards. Now if I can get this reliability problem worked out it will be a perfect coyote rifle. |
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I know the new M4's have the feedramps Dano speaks of but I thought that was to handle the 69 grain bullits? Lots of AR's work without them. I believe the green magazine followers were designed to overcome this kind of problem. They have a longer rear extension to keep the front of the follower up. I might try that before grinding on my upper. They are less than $2 and may take care of the problem. |
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oldguy, I actually have a J hook stock installed. According the the person I purchased this rifle from it has the original parts except for the buttstock. The reason I'm kind of ruling out the mags is because its doing it with 11 different mags belonging to me and a couple that belong to my friend. Looks like the bullet is actually hitting just below the feed ramp cutouts. I think G35's dremel idea would work I'm just not sure about doing it myself. It does have a lifetime warranty from RRA I'm just worried that it will take them forever to return my rifle. Does anyone have any experience using RRA's warranty service? Since I did not originally purchase this rifle brand new is it still under warranty in the first place? Here is a picture of the rife: [img]http://webpages.charter.net/lousar/pictures/ARfire.jpg[/img] |
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It's a long shot but... Make sure the mag spring is installed correctly. The half loop on top should push on the front of the follower. Thinking back, I had a similar problem. Occasional misfeeds with the bullit pushed in. It turned out the magazine was letting go of the round too soon. Simply bending the feed lips down to match the contour of the top round fixed the problem. If it happened on the last round the bolt would lock back and the next round was left flopping around above the mag. Mr. Bilski posted once about the magazine fountain test. Take a fully loaded magazine and strike the bottom on a firm surface. A little padding to prevent damage is advisable. It has to be hard enough to cause the bullits to rebound down. A bad magazine will let go and the bullits will come spewing out. If the bolt recoils too hard I suppose it would be more inclined to happen. Do you have the fixed stock with a metal buffer (5.3 ounces) and correct recoil spring (about 44 turns)? |
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I just called Rock River Arms. I spoke to one of their techs and explained the problem. The lifetime warranty is null and void because I was not the original purchaser of the rifle but they told me to send it and they would take care of it anyway. Sounds too good to be true but we will see. I have a coyote hunt this weekend and I'll send it to them after that. Thanks for everyone's help. |
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KY23, I have a 16" RRA as well (RRA parts kit on a PWA lower, actually, build in September.) I was just dry-cycling my rifle, and found I was having the same problem as you, refusing to strip a round off a full magazine. (I have only been loading 1 round per mag when actually shooting, as that was all my range allowed, but I wanted to function check before taking a training class this weekend.) I tried all the ideas people responded with, and none of them worked. Then I read the last sentence of oldguy's last post: [I]Do you have the fixed stock with a metal buffer (5.3 ounces) and correct recoil spring (about 44 turns)?[/I] In a final desperate attempt, I pulled the buffer spring that came in the RRA parts kit out and compared it to one in my Bushmaster spare parts kit. It turns out the RRA spring has ~36 loops and measures [B]10.75"[/B], while the Bushmaster spring has ~42 loops and measures [B]13"[/B]. From my limited knowledge, I am guessing that the RRA kit shipped with a carbine buffer spring, which in the full-length buffer tube is not creating enough spring pressure to force the bolt carrier forward! After switching them it seems to cycle much more reliably, although not perfectly. I am hoping this improves with live fire, where the forces are a little bit more dynamic. If you haven't shipped your rifle off yet, you might try looking at this and see if you find the same problem. |
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No problem...I will. Terrato, Thank you for your suggestions. I'll go home tonight and ensure my buffer spring is of correct length. I compared it to a full size AR before when it was suggested by oldguy but I didn't count the turns or measure the spring. I actually found a type of magazine that works just fine in my rifle. The new all steel mags made in England work just fine. Any US GI mag, steel or alloy or the oralite mags do not work. I've tried new and used ones. I'm going to send it back the beginning of next week. I'll post the final results on the board. |
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KY23, It's kind of funny that you bring up the England mags. One of the guys here is having problems with the feed lips rubbing on the bottom of the carrier. Sounds like he is having the opposite problem as you, his mags are sitting too high in the receiver. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=150020[/url] You may want to get a hold of him and see if he wants to swap out a few mags with you. It would solve both of your problems on a short-term bias. But, you still may want to send the rifle off to be checked out. Note: With the feed lips sitting higher in the receiver, the ammo feed path is higher, and less likely to have the ammo tip driven into the receiver below the feed ramps. |
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Just measured my recoil spring. It has 44 turns and its 13" long. So it looks like thats not a problem. It doesn't have a problem stripping a round..its just pushing that round into the receiver under the feed ramp. Like the mags aren't holding the ammo at the correct angle. I haven't had a single jam yet using the England mags but they don't seem to have as much forward to backward play in the receiver. |
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Quoted: KY23, It's kind of funny that you bring up the England mags. One of the guys here is having problems with the feed lips rubbing on the bottom of the carrier. Sounds like he is having the opposite problem as you, his mags are sitting too high in the receiver. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=150020[/url] You may want to get a hold of him and see if he wants to swap out a few mags with you. It would solve both of your problems on a short-term bias. But, you still may want to send the rifle off to be checked out. Note: With the feed lips sitting higher in the receiver, the ammo feed path is higher, and less likely to have the ammo tip driven into the receiver below the feed ramps. This is my topic that I posted. Now I'm going to throw everyone a curveball. I'm having the same problem with the British mags as KY23. Although I haven't fired my rifle with these mags yet. I have cycled rounds by hand and found that a few rounds didn't lift and go into the chamber. It was forced into the the bottom of the ramp causing a jam. |
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SAdams, On your mags, pull them apart and clean them with a Toothbrush and CLP. When you go to re-install the spring, grab it and stretch it out. The spring will not hold the stretch for more than a few mag loads, but will give you an idea of whether the spring is going soft. Chances are that the mags are dry and binding the follower. The spring/mag inside body would be fouled if they were cleaned in a solvent tank whole. KY23, on the troubled mags you have, the feed lips may be bent up a bit and due to the slightly higher catch on your rifle, the lips on a few of the steel mags are rubbing. You can reset the lips, to be slightly lower and not rub the action. |
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Dano523, The feed lips look fine. They look just as good as a brand new mag. I've actually used a brand new Orlite mag and new steel and alloy US GI mags. All fail except for the England made mags. I only have one of them and it works flawlessly so far. I learned a long time ago that strectching a spring is probably the worst thing you can do to it. If this has worked for you in the past keep doing it. I learned the hard way to not stretch mag springs. Not saying anyone is wrong I'm just stating what I've learned in the past and my opinion. |
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Stretching the springs is a last ditch effort to solve the feeding problem, once everything else has been tried. You are correct on not starting off by trying to make them longer/ stronger, due to the spring only weakling in a very short time when they return to the set. Normally it's best to just try a new spring and see if it corrects the problem, but chances are that SAdams doesn't have a spare new spring to try. Since his rounds are diving during feeding, I would say that his spring is not strong enough to fight the bolt and hold a round to the top of the lips. |
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