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Posted: 12/23/2005 8:33:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 2:50:42 AM EDT by Aimless]
I notice that they are a tad higher in price than Bushmaster uppers?
How do they compare? 14.5 M4


BOUGHT THE LMT 14.5 from BRAVO COMPANY

Alot More accurate than I thought it would be

GOOD STUFF

Money wasnt a issue !


I corrected the spelling of "Lewis" in the title so this thread would show up properly in search-Aimless
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:41:28 AM EDT
LMT is almost as good as Colt (actually, the difference will probably never be noted except in controlled testing or spec comparison) and BFI is a lesser product. Mostly just because they do not magnaflux and proof all their barrels, even though they are marked as such.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:12:25 AM EDT
Combat_Jack covered it well

LMT is a top tier maker and should be expected to run more money than the Bushmaster as a result

They are a specialty maker, and don't turn out that many complete rifles, although the ones they do are seen as very good.

See all the LMT stuff here
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:25:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:37:53 AM EDT
The only real differance is Bushmaster does not use a M4 barrel extension and LMT does.
Both are 4150 steel, chrome lined bore and chamber and the same contour.

I have many thousand rounds semi and full auto down range with both. Neither has ever
caused a problem. As far as I am concerned both are top tier.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:50:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bryan:
The only real differance is Bushmaster does not use a M4 barrel extension and LMT does.
Both are 4150 steel, chrome lined bore and chamber and the same contour.

I have many thousand rounds semi and full auto down range with both. Neither has ever
caused a problem. As far as I am concerned both are top tier.



Bushmaster does not magnaflux and proof fire every barrel--they do by sample. Will that make a difference in the real world? I am not qualified to say. But the fact that the great majority of BFI barrels have MPI stamped on and were never inspected or tested makes them a lesser product, IMHO.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:12:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:30:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 11:32:37 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:
The LMT has the proper 1:7 twist.
That's a REAL difference.



For whom? I have no need for 1/7.

Do you mean Military spec?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:56:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:

Originally Posted By Bryan:
The only real differance is Bushmaster does not use a M4 barrel extension and LMT does.
Both are 4150 steel, chrome lined bore and chamber and the same contour.



What's the twist rate on the Bushmaster barrels, 1:9?
Shoot any MK262 through the barrel?
How does it handle it?

The LMT has the proper 1:7 twist.
That's a REAL difference.
Having said that, Bushmaster makes a decent product, but it's NOT the same as the milspec stuff like Clot and LMT.
No, I did not mis-type Clot.



All my bushmaster barrels are 1/7
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:21:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:

Originally Posted By Bryan:
The only real differance is Bushmaster does not use a M4 barrel extension and LMT does.
Both are 4150 steel, chrome lined bore and chamber and the same contour.



What's the twist rate on the Bushmaster barrels, 1:9?
Shoot any MK262 through the barrel?
How does it handle it?

The LMT has the proper 1:7 twist.
That's a REAL difference.
Having said that, Bushmaster makes a decent product, but it's NOT the same as the milspec stuff like Clot and LMT.
No, I did not mis-type Clot.



All my bushmaster barrels are 1/7



+1
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:33:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:43:32 PM EDT
FWIW, I have NEVER heard of a BFI 1/7 barrel that wasn't special ordered, with an extra wait for most of the orders. I tried to order one shortly before the AWB sunset. They said it would be something like 5 months.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:01:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:
I am glad that you guys got good 1:7 barrels.




HUH? The 1/9 barrels are Bad? But the 1/7 from the same manuf are good?

I'm a Colt guy anyway, but your inference isn't logical.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:20:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:47:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 6:09:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Bushmaster does not magnaflux and proof fire every barrel--they do by sample. Will that make a difference in the real world? I am not qualified to say. But the fact that the great majority of BFI barrels have MPI stamped on and were never inspected or tested makes them a lesser product, IMHO.




You always say that Combat Jack but you're wrong. Last month's Small Arms Review differs with you on this point. Every Bushmaster barrel is MP tested and double proofed.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:14:00 PM EDT
Phil_A_Steen, I am quoting Jared from BFI who said that in the BFI forum on the industry board. Perhaps when they finally got around to fixing the staking machine they started testing more of them?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:36:41 AM EDT
You know, this "mil spec" thing is way too silly. I just shoot in a few matches and punch paper, get this, for fun. The way I see it some folks really believe Bushy does NOT inspect every single barrel or bolt, but WTF, does Remington? I have NEVER lost a minute of sleep over that one. Colt does however offer their non Mil Spec compliant FCG pins and their non-mil spec sear blocks, so how can they be considered "Mil-Spec"? They are nutered. From what I have read the LMT may be the closest to true "Mil-Spec" as if that makes me have a wet dream. I don't get my panties in a wad over this petty shit, and BTW, I do own Colt and Bushy....but my Colt is a pre-ban, non-nuttered and that does not even seem to matter a bit to me. I GUESS I LIKE TO LIVE RISKY.

Buy what you want and shoot what you have.

Bill
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:24:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Another-Bill:
You know, this "mil spec" thing is way too silly. I just shoot in a few matches and punch paper, get this, for fun. The way I see it some folks really believe Bushy does NOT inspect every single barrel or bolt, but WTF, does Remington? I have NEVER lost a minute of sleep over that one. Colt does however offer their non Mil Spec compliant FCG pins and their non-mil spec sear blocks, so how can they be considered "Mil-Spec"? They are nutered. From what I have read the LMT may be the closest to true "Mil-Spec" as if that makes me have a wet dream. I don't get my panties in a wad over this petty shit, and BTW, I do own Colt and Bushy....but my Colt is a pre-ban, non-nuttered and that does not even seem to matter a bit to me. I GUESS I LIKE TO LIVE RISKY.

Buy what you want and shoot what you have.

Bill



+1
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:14:30 AM EDT
I have a bushmaster A2 20" HBar, and I use a LMT 16" M4grey upper on that rifles lower. I like the finsh on my bushmaster better, but I like the darker finsh on my LMT. They both shoot great, both eat wolf ammo. But the LMT does "feel" better made.

One thing I will say, I wish I didn't wait so long to get a m4grey upper.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:09:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Phil_A_Steen, I am quoting Jared from BFI who said that in the BFI forum on the industry board. Perhaps when they finally got around to fixing the staking machine they started testing more of them?




Combat Jack, I don't know who Jared is but you should read Raffica's article in SAR before you continue on your perpetual diatribe against BM.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:48:47 AM EDT
Money is not a issue

Can somebody post a LMT on Bushwhacker lower?

Yes Bushmaster will SO 1/7

I thought Bush MP there ALL Carriers and Barrels!

Man there seems to be 3 to pick from
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:10:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Money is not a issue

Can somebody post a LMT on Bushwhacker lower?

Yes Bushmaster will SO 1/7

I thought Bush MP there ALL Carriers and Barrels!

Man there seems to be 3 to pick from



Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:11:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Combat_Jack covered it well

LMT is a top tier maker and should be expected to run more money than the Bushmaster as a result

They are a specialty maker, and don't turn out that many complete rifles, although the ones they do are seen as very good.

See all the LMT stuff here



Too bad they wont sell complete rifles to non LEO or military.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:22:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 9:23:00 AM EDT by PBIR]
+1 For Jeff Zimba's article "Birth of a Black Rifle" in the Jan 2006 issue of Small Arms Review. It lays a lot of myths to rest. Very informative on Bushmaster's QC. Having said that, I have been very impressed with 99% of the LMT products I've handled.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:24:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Last month's Small Arms Review differs with you on this point. Every Bushmaster barrel is MP tested and double proofed.



That was a very carefully written Bushmaster advertisement. Take a look a closer look at the article. It does not mention proof testing at all. On top of that it improperly describes what USGI barrel markings mean, on purpose so as to confuse less then informed people.


Originally Posted By Another-Bill:
The way I see it some folks really believe Bushy does NOT inspect every single barrel or bolt, but WTF, does Remington? l



Correct, Remington does proof test their barrel, check for the REP marking, it means Remington English Proof. Every reputable manufacturer proofs weapons, as has been the standard for over 100 years.

Bushmaster does not proof test their firearms, and has never made the claim that they do. Instead Bushmaster finds it much cheaper to word their advertisement to misrepresent what the MP proof marking means on a USGI barrel. Bushmaster will tell you it means Magnetic Particle inspected rather then Magnafluxed Proof fired. There by they avoid the whole issue of proofing a firearm, and the related expense.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:43:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:51:27 AM EDT
LMT has a habit of cutting chambers off center on AR and FAL barrels. That said, there are TWO tier one M16/AR15 manufacturers in the US and LMT is not one of them. They make a good product but they put out way too many lemons to be considered anything more than what they are, tier two.

LMT may make 1/7 government barrels and use spec receiver extensions but they are no where near as consistant as Colt/FN.

I liked LMT a whole lot better when they were strictly a sub.



Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:00:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:12:24 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I did not see that issue, I am sure the Coltfanatics will claim that the article is UNTRUE!!! IT HAS TO BEEE!!!!! AAAAAH!



That is correct, it does contain a lie, and their website has this particular half truth:


From Bushmaster's website:
Ours are manufactured to mil. spec. and are magnetic particle inspected to insure against cracks or flaws that could cause catastrophic bolt failure or injury.



Spec is to be proofed fired, something Bushmaster fails to mention, in an attempt to give you all the idea that thier barrels/bolts meet the same specs as those of USGI suppliers. This marking ploy works, it fools most everyone.

SAR, January 2006, page 37


Originally appearing in SAR:
The familiar "CMP" mark often seen would indicated Colt Magnetic Particle Testing and "BMP" would indicate Bushmaster Particle Testing and so on.



Fact is the P in C MP means Proofed fired. Proof firing in dangerous, expensive, and a pain, but it is done on barrels marked C MP, and not done on barrels marked B MP. Just another attempt by Bushmaster to trick the consumer into thinking MP means something else. That something else is the cheaper method Bushmaster uses.

You can defend a manufacturer that stamps proof markings on barrels that are not proofed, but talk about really creepy low type of thing that makes my skin crawl like their are bugs all over me, yuck.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:04:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:04:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:05:42 AM EDT by Ekie]
.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:09:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:10:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

How do you (or anyone who does not work there) know what proof/testing Bushmaster does?



The barrel manufacturing process is described in great detail in the Jan SAR Bushmaster advertisement. Bushmaster does not mention proof testing, and never has, but instead lies about what MP means. It ain't that hard to figure out what is going on. That is Bushmaster does not want to bother with proof testing, but wants to lump them selves with USGI suppliers, so they mark their barrels like USGI barrels, and try to convince you that the marking means something else.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:11:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Go to the potty and I miss something good!



Did not delete nothing, just clicked on the wrong thing.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:15:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:16:40 AM EDT by boltcatch]
If they did do it (proof test, etc,), why the hell wouldn't they go out of their way to tell us about it? Last most of us heard, per Bushmaster and posted on this site, is that they mag particle samples from each lot.

I don't have any reason to doubt them, but if they do more than that or if they've changed that for the better then I think they're fools for not making noise about it.

IIRC, last time I saw Bushmaster post something about it on here they were also talking about developing some new alternative sort of testing.

If I was buying a new M4ish upper, I'd probably try one from Bravo Co.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:15:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:17:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:18:10 AM EDT by misterjg]
Does LMT MP test all of their barrels and bolts?

It was my understanding to be considered a Tier 1 AR/M16 manufacture you need to conform in all aspects to the Colt Tech. Data Package. Colt and FN are the only two companies that I am aware of doing so.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:18:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:19:23 AM EDT by boltcatch]

If God logged in and posted that Bushmaster does the same barrel testing as Colt (I'm not saying they do) I don't think you'd believe it.


And he probably wouldn't believe you, because God doesn't make Bushmaster's barrels, Bushmaster does, and they keep saying otherwise.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:22:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:24:24 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
If they did do it (proof test, etc,), why the hell wouldn't they go out of their way to tell us about it? Last most of us heard, per Bushmaster and posted on this site, is that they mag particle samples from each lot.

I don't have any reason to doubt them, but if they do more than that or if they've changed that for the better then I think they're fools for not making noise about it.



The mag particle, or "MP" is a ruse! Yes they do that, and tell us about it in order to change the subject.

Look guys, I know that is carefully worded hype on the web site and in the SAR article, but you can see past it, it ain't that tough. PROOF, as in the P in MP means to test a component with a HIGH PRESSURE cartridge. That is PROOF, barrels that passed are PROOF MARKED. That has been the situation for hundreds of years. Bushmaster do have the MP PROOF mark, but they are not PROOFED, and they do not even make the claim that they do.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:24:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:

If God logged in and posted that Bushmaster does the same barrel testing as Colt (I'm not saying they do) I don't think you'd believe it.


And he probably wouldn't believe you, because God doesn't make Bushmaster's barrels, Bushmaster does, and they keep saying otherwise.



Look, Bushmaster does not even make the claim that they proof fire thier barrels. Get it? USGI specs are Proof fired, Bushmaster are not.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:27:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:27:58 AM EDT by Ekie]
Will check back later and see if you guys caught that bit about P being PROOF FIRED and such. Right now got to go test my newest aquired USGI M4 upper with some 30 round mag dumps..........
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:46:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
If they did do it (proof test, etc,), why the hell wouldn't they go out of their way to tell us about it? Last most of us heard, per Bushmaster and posted on this site, is that they mag particle samples from each lot.

I don't have any reason to doubt them, but if they do more than that or if they've changed that for the better then I think they're fools for not making noise about it.



The mag particle, or "MP" is a ruse! Yes they do that, and tell us about it in order to change the subject.

Look guys, I know that is carefully worded hype on the web site and in the SAR article, but you can see past it, it ain't that tough. PROOF, as in the P in MP means to test a component with a HIGH PRESSURE cartridge. That is PROOF, barrels that passed are PROOF MARKED. That has been the situation for hundreds of years. Bushmaster do have the MP PROOF mark, but they are not PROOFED, and they do not even make the claim that they do.



You do realize that there are military used items that have not been tested yet are said to be tested.

Like testing a sample out of a lot and if the sample passes the lot is said to be tested and proofed. They do it with strike plates and kevlar vests.

You dont have to test every single item to say it has been tested.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:11:28 AM EDT
As I recall the govt inspected samples of M14 parts, I believe every 100. If one bad apple was found, the whole lot went to the crapper. I have to go the my accountant right now to close out the year end books but I will find the information.

Bill
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:20:10 AM EDT
Its good that Colt proofs and MPs their stuff but its not worth having a barrel assembly thats $400 with out a gas tube and delta assembly and certainly not worth the $125 ive seen for Bolts.So Ill settle for sample batch testing to keep barrel assemblys $200 cheaper.CMMG seems to be the best deal..4150 steel,proof tested,MP inspected on every barrel,M4 extensions and SOCCOM profile barrels about $100 cheaper than Colt..Im trying one of their barrels next.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Its good that Colt proofs and MPs their stuff but its not worth having a barrel assembly thats $400 with out a gas tube and delta assembly and certainly not worth the $125 ive seen for Bolts.So Ill settle for sample batch testing to keep barrel assemblys $200 cheaper.CMMG seems to be the best deal..4150 steel,proof tested,MP inspected on every barrel,M4 extensions and SOCCOM profile barrels about $100 cheaper than Colt..Im trying one of their barrels next.



I got an MP tested, 1/7 twist, M4 barrel for $235 from grant at G&R tactical. Brand new barrel, pretty sure it was an ER Shaw, same guys who make colt. Save your money.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:36:12 AM EDT
LMT is not tier one or two or three. They are too small a shop to even rate. They are a specialty builder who mostly deals with gov’t contracts. As a civilian purchaser you are your own inspector. You can either do it yourself or not. If you can you are way ahead of every other maker besides Colt because they actually proof and inspect barrels and bolts, something Bushmaster does not do, despite what the gun rag peddlers are promoting this month.

So the rating is:

Tier 1 = Colt
.
.
.
.
Insert huge quality and inspection gap
.
.
.
.
Tier 2 = Bushmaster (if you replace the bolt with a Colt or CMT)
.
.
.
Insert huge quality gap
.
.
.
Tier 3 = Armalite, Rock River Arms



The closest I can rate LMT is tier 1.25
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:43:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 11:47:53 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
As a civilian purchaser you are your own inspector. You can either do it yourself or not. If you can you are way ahead of every other maker besides Colt because they actually proof and inspect barrels and bolts, something Bushmaster does not do, despite what the gun rag peddlers are promoting this month.





This statement is based on what? I see a lot of statements in this thread about who does what but where are the actual fact-checked articles or statements from the horses' mouths (colt, bushie, etc) that verify them?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:30:51 PM EDT
We who have been here and paid attention to previous threads got the lowdown on BM. We are repeating the facts, not the ad copy hype from a gun rag. BM has mislead the masses for years so you can’t expect me or others to suddenly believe them now. If you go to the EE you will see ads for MP tested bolts. That market was created here on Arfcom because of broken bolts and mistrust of unmarked and second tier bolts.

I’ve seen a broken bolt first hand in a tactical match. The stock had to be removed to get the pieces out so it took some time and tools to get it running again. If in harms way I’d rather carry an AK than risk my life to a untested AR bolt.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:58:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:09:05 PM EDT
I have a deal for you all...

Don't shoot proof loads through barrels that you fork out your own hard-earned money for, and live your life perfectly satisfied that your NON-PROOFED $200 cheaper barrel will bust all the pop cans and dirt clods you can put in it's way!!!

People who NEED proofed barrels don't have to pay for them out of their own pockets.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:11:44 PM EDT
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