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Posted: 9/30/2007 5:40:08 PM EST
Has anyone used the LWRC M6A2's? How does thier system compare to the H&K 416? Any information would be helpful on either weapon system.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:18:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By AspenCop:
Has anyone used the LWRC M6A2's? How does thier system compare to the H&K 416? Any information would be helpful on either weapon system.



Well if you are a Aspen Cop and it's a pd gun get the HK416 WITHOUT A DOUBT !
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:27:14 PM EST
Why? The price points are the same and the piston systems appear to be very similar. Is it just the overall reputation of H&K or is the 416 truly a better weapon system?

Darren (LWRC), you can comment at any time here...
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:27:55 PM EST
The biggest difference is as civilian you can legally own a LWRC upper without having to worry about the factory saying it was stolen from an L.E. agency or dealer. They will work with you if there is a problem and are more then helpful with civy orders. An upper can be bought for +/-1500

HK416 while very cool is not very pro-civy (L.E.O. not withstanding) and they run around +/-4500
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:28:52 PM EST
I bought the LWRC M6A2. I have not shot or handled the HK product but I don't know if HK can make a product that exceeds 100% reliable.

I like the look of both and for the money (LWRC isn't cheap either) I think I'd pass on the HK even if I found one.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:35:10 PM EST
As with anything...you get what you pay for. HK without a doubt.


Maj
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 7:19:13 PM EST
This would be an LE purchase...and both are the same price, which is quite a bit better than the civilian price.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 8:10:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 8:12:58 PM EST by loomisfarms01]
If your a PD, go with the HK.

It has proven itself in the hands of our nations finest & most elite warriors for several years. Plus it was designed from the ground up to be a piston gas system AR and build with some of the finest quality in the industry. Not just some parts kit modified for a gas piston.

This is a no-brainer.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 8:23:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By loomisfarms01:
If your a PD, go with the HK.

It has proven itself in the hands of our nations finest & most elite warriors for several years. Plus it was designed from the ground up to be a piston gas system AR and build with some of the finest quality in the industry. Not just some parts kit modified for a gas piston.

This is a no-brainer.


The above advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Consider the source.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:05:53 AM EST
Both are as good as each other, the HK is heavier overall with the center of balance towards the muzzle, the LW feels more like a normal AR. Having used both, there is little to choose between them.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 12:15:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By MajorAR:
As with anything...you get what you pay for. HK without a doubt.


Maj


If you're referring to the "gouge price" of the HK (like $4000-$5000) I don't think that's an honest comparison. To say that because a LWRC upper is $1600 and the HK jacked-up price is $5000 that it makes the HK better is inaccurate. In reality I believe the LEO price for an HK upper is around the same price as a LWRC upper.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 1:04:51 PM EST
Both are good choices, but I'd honestly consider looking into how it will be to get parts and service if needed for HK416.
Alot of the parts are proprietary were as the LWRC's use alot of standard AR parts like carriers, bolts, firing pins were the 416 has their own specialty bolt, carrier, firing pin and firing pin spring too besides other pieces of the pie.
Both are going to have the op rod spring above the barrel wearout out some point and when you need another can always be at the worst time. Than getting those parts or service if you don't have spares or it's a warranty issue is always a good thing to look at.

Piston AR pic thread
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 1:38:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 2:07:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cold:
HK, no question.


H-gay.

Good luck if you break a part.

I have a P7 M8 that is now the fanciest paperweight you ever seen.

Play it safe, go with LW.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 2:56:50 PM EST
Practically the same gun. I have an LWRC SRT 10.5" upper on the way. I would really like to get the Hk. But, the more I think about it, the more I come to the realization that I want the Hk because I cannot have it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:10:51 PM EST
Let's see.......................


Jessica Alba or Jennifer Anniston



Hard to go wrong.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:12:03 PM EST
Direct Impingement > Piston
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:16:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2007 3:27:11 PM EST by DevL]

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:
Direct Impingement > Piston


Sounds like someone who has not owned a LWRC.

I will never go back to DI again.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:23:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:
Direct Impingement > Piston


Sounds like someone who has not owned a LWRC.

I will never go back to DI again.


Don't intend on it, my gas tube works just fine.

That said, I heard some lame shit about LWRC, but then again I wouldn't pay 4,500$ for an HK. Tough call.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:27:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By AspenCop:
This would be an LE purchase...and both are the same price


No brainer....

HK

Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:30:14 PM EST
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:40:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.


Red = Blue
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:45:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4builder:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.


Red = Blue


Amen.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:47:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2007 3:48:44 PM EST by Achilles1]
I see the DI trolls have shown up. Take your shit somewhere else. The OP didn't ask about any DI or piston differences or anyone's personal opinion on whether they felt it was worth it.
He asked about which one between a LWRC and HK 416. He's already made up his mind.

If you don't like piston action AR's good for you. Don't buy one than and move the fuck on and stop shitting on the mans thread like a couple of dogs.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:49:58 PM EST
Tag
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:51:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
I see the DI trolls have shown up. Take your shit somewhere else. The OP didn't ask about any DI or piston differences or anyone's personal opinion on whether they felt it was worth it.
He asked about which one between a LWRC and HK 416. He's already made up his mind.

If you don't like piston action AR's good for you. Don't buy one than and move the fuck on and stop shitting on the mans thread like a couple of dogs.


Did someone get their feelings hurt?

I was merely joking around, and I gave my 2 cents regarding his question.

Break down, and cry harder.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:58:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
I see the DI trolls have shown up. Take your shit somewhere else. The OP didn't ask about any DI or piston differences or anyone's personal opinion on whether they felt it was worth it.
He asked about which one between a LWRC and HK 416. He's already made up his mind.

If you don't like piston action AR's good for you. Don't buy one than and move the fuck on and stop shitting on the mans thread like a couple of dogs.


Did someone get their feelings hurt?

I was merely joking around, and I gave my 2 cents regarding his question.

Break down, and cry harder.


You mistake my disgust for the constant DI/piston bullshit and trolling that a few got going on for feeling hurts.
It's old and in this case just a couple of little dogs looking to bark.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:00:45 PM EST
Thank you to everyone that wrote in. This query was done as an information gathering excercise. We have indeed decided on a GP weapon system and just wanted to know of any specific preference/difference between the two brands. I appreciate the input.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 4:46:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2007 5:00:25 AM EST by loomisfarms01]
Since when did a LWRC parts kit rifle become “just as good as XXX”? What exactly is this based on?

LWRC:
- Merely Stag or DPMS parts modified for their gas piston system – none of which is made in house.
- No shot peened or MPI tested bolt or more to the point NONE of the military TDP required testing that my COLT 6920 went through for instance.
- No hammer forged barrel
- So/So reliability history. For a small company with a limited amount of rifles in circulation I’ve read a more than a fair amount of rifles having issues. I know for a fact several AR15.com members have had to send their rifles back in for warranty work and that’s with very low round counts – even if they don’t want to admit it now. TaylorWSO, SMGLee, DevL, SeanK1ng, jadams951, ETC just to name a few. I figure about twenty guys post regularly about LWRC rifles over the Internet forums, so having 5-6 post about having massive reliability problems is a relatively high percentage. It seems to safe to assume if 25% of Internet forum posters are having problems so are the other LWRC product owners. They just don’t post on the forums so we never hear about it.
- No authorized military testing or sales.

Yeah, I did a lot of research before I purchased my Colt 6920.

How did this compare favorably to the HK416 that’s been in Tier 1 military service for going on 4-5 years and doing outstanding? Enough so that every military unit with the freedom & funding to buy them IS buying them.


Current users of the HK416:
- Delta
- NSW DevGru
- AWG
- At least one US Army SF battalion and that’s hard to do with them being part of SOCOM - they don't have the same freedom as some of the others on this list.
- Un-nameable JSOC units
- FBI HRT
- Capitol police SWAT
- ETC, ETC, ETC.

LWRC military sales: None - a few rifles handed out as prizes for a SF three gun competition do not count. Although it was a nice gesture it really does not count as a “military sale” or “Used by U.S. Army SF”.

Link Posted: 10/2/2007 4:53:52 AM EST
Between, H&K and LWRC, I'll choose H&K everytime. They have too much experience to ignore, despite the shitty attitude towards average American consumers.

If it was me, I'd rather spend the bucks for a DI gun built by MSTN. A duty gun is nothing to fuck around with.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 5:31:20 AM EST
height=8

Current users of the HK416:


Add Norway armed forces who solely go for HK 416, HK 417 and HK MP7 PDW as their equipment (yes, they can afford best there is). Also polish GROM (SF unit - operates in A-stan na Iraq under NATO and US SOCOM command) choosed HK 416D as main workhorse for operators. They also use HK USP in sandbox.

HK 416 is not just AR-15 with piston. It's AR-15 with HK level of quality, HK materials and HK overengineering. Try to shoot jammed bullet out of LWRC (or regular M16 or M4) barrel (actually DON'T TRY), then from HK barrel (this you can try, and it was done before in G36 and XM8 - 416 barrel have same specs). HK went with piston in 416 not becouse piston is better. They just wanted to make AR-15 that will deliver best reliability and durability in all enviroments for most demanding users. Piston design is just one of things they put there. That's why it's best to get complete 416, not just upper (there are improovemnts in buffer are as well as more rigid lower).

Just my 0.03zl from other side of big water.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 5:55:19 AM EST
Where are you buying a PD purchase of a H&K 416 and how much? IM me please, I may be looking too.

Bucky145
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 7:31:22 AM EST
Just out of curiosity....What is the parts support difference between LWRC & HK?

If your piston system has a breakage, who would provide the faster/better support?

If you were to leave LE, would HK still provide parts support to you?

I'd consider the long haul in this purchase. I choose the long standing traditional system because of it's ease of obtaining replacement parts from multiple mfgs.


BTW. I'm not a dog looking to bark, I just noted that Achilles1 was taking his chance to show his ignorance about the D.I.
So, to him I say, " Show me one example of how the 'mighty' piston trumps the D.I. with anything over 14" in barrel length." ...and don't try reliability...I just saw a standard AR fire 10,000rds constant semi-auto firing without one cleaning..just some oil through the ejection port every few hundred rounds. (Dick Metcalf) If you need more than that, you better live in the ammo bunker.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 8:16:04 AM EST
LWRC.

You will have an outstanding piston system that is US designed and manufactured. You will have outstanding customer support and parts availability (not that you'll need them).

After a year of shooting them and following the company's progress I believe they make one of the finest AR15s on the market, piston or not. I've got my 3rd on order that should be delivered in the next week or two.

Stephen
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 8:25:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Let's see.......................


Jessica Alba or Jennifer Anniston



ANOTHER NO BRAINER!

Jessica Alba
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 9:03:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2007 9:04:46 AM EST by steel_weasel]
Having used both I'm here to say that there is little to choose between them. H&K has a great reputation for well engineered, reliable firearms. Having said that though they have a dismal reputation for customer service. They absolutely fucked the USMC over MP5's repairs and are doing the same now to at least one local police department that has had 5 MP-5's deadline for over a year now.

Looney Farms better get some of his 'facts' straight. FBI HRT tested the 416 and indeed did request them but as of yet have none in the active inventory. Bumped into a buddy 3 weeks ago on his way to the vault...he was carrying a Colt.

Most organizations won't bother to test the 416 alongside the LWRC. They figure the 416 is good enough...which it is...until something breaks and then you've got a paperweight.

LWRC hasn't been around long enough in my book to have an established track record for customer service but so far they are beating H&K in that regard.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 9:43:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By stephen_101st:
LWRC.

You will have an outstanding piston system that is US designed and manufactured. You will have outstanding customer support and parts availability (not that you'll need them).

After a year of shooting them and following the company's progress I believe they make one of the finest AR15s on the market, piston or not. I've got my 3rd on order that should be delivered in the next week or two.

Stephen


I own both , and have my 3rd LWRC on order.

Link Posted: 10/2/2007 9:45:07 AM EST
The original company Lietner Weise, had a lot of problems. A LOT of problems. Now, under new management, LWRC has become one of the premiere Piston manufacturers and make products that side-byside have been rated on par with the 416 in numerous articles and reviews (magazine and internet).

LWRC is a new company from their original roots and, to my knowledge have had no problems whatsoever. I like to have backup parts for all my rifles and when I ordered my SRT upper, I asked about getting another BCG. I was speaking to the owner of the company and he told me that he could get them for me, but they haven't offered any replacement parts sales because they haven't had to. They have had no problems with their guns. I don't know where all the LWRC hate is coming from, but I would like to see the info backing up all these "problem guns."
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 9:45:41 AM EST
For a local PD that isnt going to have more than a few K of training rounds through each weapon I would NOT get either. Why take on added hassle, get home grown M4's.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 9:51:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 10:53:56 AM EST
Did someone say POF
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 11:02:16 AM EST
If you an Aspen cop, why would you want a rifle anyway. Rifles are evil and bad and the community might be upset if they thought you had something "military" like that. Better to stick with the jeans, ponytails and beards.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 11:02:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:
If you feel the piston systems are on par with eachother, then I'd choose the HK due to barrel quality.


I do have an HK on order


No doubt H&K barrels are excellent stuff which always leaves me wondering why the 416's accuracy is not all that spectacular
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 12:31:13 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By steel_weasel:
height=8
Originally Posted By petagunner:
If you feel the piston systems are on par with eachother, then I'd choose the HK due to barrel quality.


I do have an HK on orderH&K


And you're basing this conclusion on...
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 12:41:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Onslaught:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Let's see.......................


Jessica Alba or Jennifer Anniston



ANOTHER NO BRAINER!

Jessica Alba


No kidding. Jennifer Anniston isn't even in the same league as Jessica Alba.

Aspencop: Both are very good, but I would personally contact both companies and find out as much info as you can from them and see if they can possibly send you one to test out. Also find out what would happen if the weapon broke. Who would you send the weapon to to get fixed.

If your department is seriously considering getting one, do your research. Don't just take the advice from guys on the internet.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 12:43:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.



Dev, it's cleaner and it doesn't get as hot, that's it, it's not more reliable. I know you love your carbine, but come on
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:20:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.



Dev, it's cleaner and it doesn't get as hot, that's it, it's not more reliable. I know you love your carbine, but come on


This thread has nothing to do with gas piston vs. impingement. Users of either system don't want to change, so just get over it. I get it - cleaner and cooler = not as reliable. I hear you, and you're wrong. So take it to another thread.

This is about asking if one should get the HK416, or the LWRC M6A2.

Here's my take aside from Loomis' crazy and misguided crusade against a perfectly good product and company...

1. Support. HK product support sucks. Don't even try to call them saying you need a spare part. First thing you'll most likely hear is 'How did you get that?' if you aren't LEO or military.

2. Price. If you are willing to spend $5,000 on a UPPER, you must be out of your mind. That's enough to buy two complete LW guns with ammunition, magazines and probably good optics.

3. Availability. Pretty much the same products for your casual user - gas piston upper, carbine length barrels, railed handguard, flattop upper. But where on earth you going to find the HK without some serious looking?

4. Developments. devL mentioned hammer forged barrels on the horizon. I ain't going to confirm this, but maybe Darren or Jessie can shed some light on this topic.

Both are good products. Both have had exposure to the military. But only one is regularly available, priced within reason.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:36:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership.



Dev, it's cleaner and it doesn't get as hot, that's it, it's not more reliable. I know you love your carbine, but come on


This thread has nothing to do with gas piston vs. impingement. Users of either system don't want to change, so just get over it. I get it - cleaner and cooler = not as reliable. I hear you, and you're wrong. So take it to another thread.

This is about asking if one should get the HK416, or the LWRC M6A2.

Here's my take aside from Loomis' crazy and misguided crusade against a perfectly good product and company...

1. Support. HK product support sucks. Don't even try to call them saying you need a spare part. First thing you'll most likely hear is 'How did you get that?' if you aren't LEO or military.

2. Price. If you are willing to spend $5,000 on a UPPER, you must be out of your mind. That's enough to buy two complete LW guns with ammunition, magazines and probably good optics.

3. Availability. Pretty much the same products for your casual user - gas piston upper, carbine length barrels, railed handguard, flattop upper. But where on earth you going to find the HK without some serious looking?

4. Developments. devL mentioned hammer forged barrels on the horizon. I ain't going to confirm this, but maybe Darren or Jessie can shed some light on this topic.

Both are good products. Both have had exposure to the military. But only one is regularly available, priced within reason.


The price of an HK upper is not $5000. It is around $1200.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:36:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
Both have had exposure to the military.


What unit has been issued a LWRC rifle?
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:40:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By S-1:

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
Both have had exposure to the military.


What unit has been issued a LWRC rifle?



HFG's unit
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:53:49 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By paulosantos:
height=8
Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
height=8
Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
height=8
Originally Posted By DevL:
Hearing lame shit is pretty meaningless for a reason to not buy. Probably a better idea to listen to what owners have to say. DI has nothing on the mighty piston other than the low cost of ownership. hot,


This thread has nothing to do with gas piston vs. impingement. Users of either system don't want to change, so just get over it. I get it - cleaner and cooler = not as reliable. I hear you, and you're wrong. So take it to another thread.

This is about asking if one should get the HK416, or the LWRC M6A2.

Here's my take aside from Loomis' crazy and misguided crusade against a perfectly good product and company...

1. Support. HK product support sucks. Don't even try to call them saying you need a spare part. First thing you'll most likely hear is 'How did you get that?' if you aren't LEO or military.

2. Price. If you are willing to spend $5,000 on a UPPER, you must be out of your mind. That's enough to buy two complete LW guns with ammunition, magazines and probably good optics.

3. Availability. Pretty much the same products for your casual user - gas piston upper, carbine length barrels, railed handguard, flattop upper. But where on earth you going to find the HK without some serious looking?

4. Developments. devL mentioned hammer forged barrels on the horizon. I ain't going to confirm this, but maybe Darren or Jessie can shed some light on this topic. h


The price of an HK upper is not $5000. It is around $1200.



Actually, the going price in the private market is in the ballpark of $3500 - 4000 currently. I think the $5000 was in reference to how much people were shelling out when the uppers 1st hit the private market.
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