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Posted: 9/7/2004 4:34:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 5:34:12 PM EST by Copper54]
Keep in mind that when the ban sunsets all that stuff marked LEO may not be an issue, BUT, we didn't have this crappy ban before we had it (think about it, it makes sense). Doesn't mean we won't get another one shoved down our throats sometime in the future.

If we do, where will you stand with that stuff that is marked LEO? You'll have to be able to prove that it was LEO from the first ban. Won't be too tough on a serial numbered item, but what about those magazines? How will you be able to prove that 10 of em you bought on September 15, 2004 aren't actually some from after a new ban happens? EASY, you won't.

Next question is, if they do succeed in putting another one in place, who's to say that they won't get some equally crappy AG or ATF opinion that says anything marked LEO is still LEO, even if it was made before the new ban.

Before you get to ripping me, I am a cop, and I don't have a LEO AR for that very reason. Plenty of armchair attorneys out there spouting their opinions that it'll all be fair game once the ban expires. Hey, some of those guys might be the local liquor store hold up artists. They may not be smart enough to do anything honest for a living, but you'll gladly accept their pronouncement of the law.

It's amazing what the ATF can do even without a law, or contrary to one. It isn't legal for them to be compiling databases of gun owners from all those yellow sheets that have been turned into em by gunshops that have gone out of business, but they have done it twice (may still be doing it too). They interpret the laws the way they see fit and jack your ass up. YOU have to prove otherwise. How many of you have a couple hundred thousand bucks to defend a $100 lower?

Right now, I carry a RRA LAR-15 A4 with an A2 stock and a bare naked barrel as a patrol rifle. Why? Cause I haven't figured out any real reason for four crummy inches less length or a flash suppressor, and I like the better accuracy of the crowned barrel. Much of the desire for those evil gun pieces exists simply because were told we can't have em.

Will I put together a pre-ban set up on Sept 14? Damn right. I may want to sell the thing after the gun grabbing left pulls off the next ban. Have I done without a pre-ban for the last 10 years? Nope, picked up a Ruger Mini14BG shortly after that piece of crap ban was passed. Has that evil flash hider or bayonet stud ever been of benefit to me? Nope. Yeah I did put a folding stock on it, but that thing cuts about 12 inches off the length, not 4.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:57:21 PM EST
I'm not terribly familiar with how gun prosecutions work, but doesn't the state carry the burden to prove you're guilty?

Since when are we guilty until proven innocent?

pls correct me if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:06:54 PM EST
Sure, the state carries the burden to prove the guilt of anyone charged with a crime. It's still "presumed innocent till proven guilty. The problem is the state doesn't carry the burden to pay your legal bills while you defend yourself. The first legal use of a concealed handgun in Texas cost the CCW user about $120,000. He was cleared of wrongdoing, but was still out all that green.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:09:47 PM EST
When the IRS gets ahold of your butt. Obviously you have never been audited where you had to PROVE that your deductions were legitimate, not them prove that they aren't. I'm quite sure the ATF could adopt pretty much the same drill if pushed.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:29:55 PM EST
Unfortunately, you pay your money and take your chances.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:47:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Copper54:
Keep in mind that when the ban sunsets all that stuff marked LEO may not be an issue, BUT, we didn't have this crappy ban before we had it (think about it, it makes sense). Doesn't mean we won't get another one shoved down our throats sometime in the future.

If we do, where will you stand with that stuff that is marked LEO? You'll have to be able to prove that it was LEO from the first ban. Won't be too tough on a serial numbered item, but what about those magazines? How will you be able to prove that 10 of em you bought on September 15, 2004 aren't actually some from after a new ban happens? EASY, you won't.

Next question is, if they do succeed in putting another one in place, who's to say that they won't get some equally crappy AG or ATF opinion that says anything marked LEO is still LEO, even if it was made before the new ban.

Before you get to ripping me, I am a cop, and I don't have a LEO AR for that very reason. Plenty of armchair attorneys out there spouting their opinions that it'll all be fair game once the ban expires. Hey, some of those guys might be the local liquor store hold up artists. They may not be smart enough to do anything honest for a living, but you'll gladly accept their pronouncement of the law.

It's amazing what the ATF can do even without a law, or contrary to one. It isn't legal for them to be compiling databases of gun owners from all those yellow sheets that have been turned into em by gunshops that have gone out of business, but they have done it twice (may still be doing it too). They interpret the laws the way they see fit and jack your ass up. YOU have to prove otherwise. How many of you have a couple hundred thousand bucks to defend a $100 lower?

Right now, I carry a RRA LAR-15 A4 with an A2 stock and a bare naked barrel as a patrol rifle. Why? Cause I haven't figured out any real reason for four crummy inches less length or a flash suppressor, and I like the better accuracy of the crowned barrel. Much of the desire for those evil gun pieces exists simply because were told we can't have em.

Will I put together a pre-ban set up on Sept 14? Damn right. I may want to sell the thing after the gun grabbing left pulls off the next ban. Have I done without a pre-ban for the last 10 years? Nope, picked up a Ruger Mini14BG shortly after that piece of crap ban was passed. Has that evil flash hider or bayonet stud ever been of benefit to me? Nope. Yeah I did put a folding stock on it, but that thing cuts about 12 inches off the length, not 4.



Well said Copper,
I was going to purchase a le6920 but I'm having serious afterthoughts.
Of course I don't want to make a purchase I have to hide.
Thanks for the comments
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:20:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 6:21:37 PM EST by Big-Bore]
Who knows for certain what the future holds. I am going to place my trust, albeit possibly misplaced, that when the new ban comes while they may still have LEO markings on them, they will require a date also. Once those LEO marked magazines become legal for consumers to own, they SHOULD fall under the provisions that force them to allow stuff that was legal yesterday to be legal today as grandfathered items (expos facto statutes??). I would suspect that to prevent that very headache and the risk of all future cases being thrown out if brought to court that they would require either different markings or a date to be added to distinguish between legal LEO marked mags and the newly banned mags.
I have a very good feeling that there are hundreds of police departments with tons of used magazines that they could not get rid of on the open market suddenly dumping them on the civilian market so they can partially fund new magazines. Maybe that is pie in the sky thinking, but they do it with weapons all the time, why not used mags?
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:35:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 6:37:06 PM EST by nchapa]
theres a good point here, kinda like alcohol is legal but people go to jail for making moonshine. If you buy a rifle right now legally government can't come taking it away from you or send you to jail (illegal search and seizure), they might make you register it.

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 7:21:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 4:47:46 AM EST by VaniB]
If I were you I'd put a deposit on that LEO Colt 6920 (or LEO 6721) now!!! It's probably going to be the only 6920 you will get your hands on for quite a while. There's going to be a quite a demand for these rifles, being Colt won't make them for the civilian market anytime soon. You would have to find an unmarked rifle that got out of the Law Enforcement loop later. -Not easilly done. Whatever you mightget your hand on later is goin to cost you more than the current LEO price! Don't worry about the markings. I personally think it's neat to have those markings on there. (You know....kind of "the real thing"). As long as the BATF rules that these rifles are legal to own on Sept 12, (can't see why they won't) the markings won't mean crap if you get stopped later. God Forbid Kerry gets in: that would leave you only 6 weeks to find one later!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 7:32:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 7:35:38 PM EST
I'll say it again, Chicken Littles, as I've been predicting the demise of the AWB for over 3 years...

INSTEAD OF BITCHING AND WHINING, SIGN UP SOME PEOPLE TO VOTE REPUB AND KEEP THOSE CALLS AND FAXES, EMAILS AND SNAIL MAIL LETTERS FLOODING TO YOUR CONGRESSCRITTERS. ENSURE THAT THERE WILL BE NO NEW AWB AS LONG AS THIS PARTY IS IN POWER.

D.
AZEX
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 7:47:51 PM EST
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all current LEO/Govt only mags stamped with the date they are made on. So if a new ban passes it should be easy to show that they are old mags.
Thanks Richard
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:46:57 AM EST
It would be easy to prove your leo stuff is grandfathered if a new ban came up. All my leo mags have a date stamp. The guns have serial numbers. Imagine that. Wow a way to trace when its made. Anything made before a new ban would be legal to own rather it says leo or not.
Pat
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:29:37 AM EST
DOOP to the 10th power.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:12:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By tazdevils610:
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all current LEO/Govt only mags stamped with the date they are made on. So if a new ban passes it should be easy to show that they are old mags.
Thanks Richard


Not all mags have the date of manufacture.
Some, like Glock, I believe, simply have 09-14-1994.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 6:06:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By sonofbp:

Originally Posted By tazdevils610:
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all current LEO/Govt only mags stamped with the date they are made on. So if a new ban passes it should be easy to show that they are old mags.
Thanks Richard


Not all mags have the date of manufacture.
Some, like Glock, I believe, simply have 09-14-1994.




Ok, so...... When the next ban comes along, the Glock magazines will then simply say "1-31-05"
The BATF will have a list of all manufactures serial number and prefixes, date or no date.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 6:24:31 AM EST
The LEO marked stuff will be moot in 30 days when all the new stuff is made. If LEO stuff scares you, just wait 3-4 weeks.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:17:11 PM EST
azexarms - Dead on, "SIGN UP SOME PEOPLE TO VOTE REPUB AND KEEP THOSE CALLS AND FAXES, EMAILS AND SNAIL MAIL LETTERS FLOODING TO YOUR CONGRESSCRITTERS. ENSURE THAT THERE WILL BE NO NEW AWB AS LONG AS THIS PARTY IS IN POWER. We gotta keep voting against em and encourage gun supporter to register and vote.

tazdevils610 - "Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all current LEO/Govt only mags stamped with the date they are made on." Sorry, they aren't all dated. None of mine are. They all are marked "Restricted Military/Gov't/Law Enforcement/Export Only" Not a date anywhere. Bought these little beasts cause the price was right and I needed them. I'll pick up some no ban mags soon when the price gets realistic again and use the LEO stuff to bang around and not worry about beating them up.

Glockfan - "Anything made before a new ban would be legal to own rather it says leo or not." Depends on the language of the ban.

RenegadeX - "If LEO stuff scares you, just wait 3-4 weeks". Preciselty why I haven't bought an LEO rifle for the last year. I have my pre-ban Mini and don't have a problem (other than I don't like em telling me I cant have em) with the missing stuff on a post ban.

I don't HAVE to have Colt. Never seen one that was more reliable, or sht better thean any of the other quality makes. I'll be happy to pick up a no-ban gun from Bushy, RRA or Armalite, and I'll never feel any less because it isn't stamped Colt (or LEO Only).


Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:41:40 PM EST
I have 2 Bushmasters M4 A3 Patrolman AR15's on their way to my FFL as we speak.

They are marked " Restricted Law Enforcement / Military Use Only " on them

16" M4 carbines - telescoping buttstock - bayo lug - A3 detachable handle.

Price I paid for each .... $780

value to me: PRICELESS

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:43:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 1:44:05 PM EST by Spooge5150]

Originally Posted By markm:
DOOP to the 10th power.



+1
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:58:34 PM EST
Course I didn't mention (and neither has anyone else). if you are hung out to dry with a prohibited LEO by some wierd twist of fate, it'll cost about $100 (+/-) for a non LEO lower and the time to switch out the parts. The you can dump the LEO lower. I'm sure that would be a lot cheaper than buying a new pre-ban gun.

What was the price for an AR before the Clintonistas rammed that piece of junk down our throats, $400. And the day after, $1500.

Guess an inexpensive LEO gun + a $100 replacement reciever is a lot cheaper than the alternative.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:46:53 AM EST
I'm not worried about the LEO markings, I've already got 4 LEO mags waiting for munday.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:16:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
I'm not worried about the LEO markings, I've already got 4 LEO mags waiting for munday.



That's Hardcore, Man!
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