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Posted: 8/24/2004 6:36:52 PM EST
I'm in the process of converting my 16" HBAR carbine into a home defense rifle. It currently has an Aimpoint and a BMAS front site gas block and flip-up sight.

I'd like to put a Surefire light on it, and a Tangodown foregrip (or maybe the surefire foregrip).

As such, I need an accessory rail to do this.

I've been looking at both the RAS II and the ARMS SIR, but can't decide between the two. I narrowed it down to these two, since they both have provisions for forward mounting an Aimpoint without any spacers.

Any thoughts on these two rail systems (or another if y'all think something else would be better)?

Weight isn't an issue, and I would prefer to free float the barrel (not a requirement though). I also want something that won't be too difficult to install.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:50:47 PM EST
I installed my RAS II today by myself... it might have been easier with another set of hands like the instructions mention, but my handguard removal tool made short work of it.

Mine feels rock solid, is pretty light, and has spec rails all around. If you want the TD foregrip with the ARMS, you need to fork out more cash for the special bottom rail. Cost and weight forced me to get the RAS II over any ARMS. I got the RAS II, 3x 11 rib panels, 1x 6 rib panel, and the KAC foregrip for $275... how does that compare to ARMS? HTH.

-Randy
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:40:10 PM EST
arms is crappy... get the KAC rasII
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:27:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 8:28:22 PM EST by LordStoner]
I see old dickie boy is back in town (in the Larue post), what's his opinion?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:29:00 PM EST
KAC.

Suits your needs and leaves you a little extra $$$ to fool around with.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:18:07 AM EST
i like the SIR myself.. get whichever you can get for the least amount of money. i would be satisfied with either one.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:23:28 AM EST
LaRue handguards.... Surefire M900 if you can afford it..... If you can't afford that then I like the Magpul vert grips the best.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:07:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
arms is crappy... get the KAC rasII



lol! ARMS is most certainly not crappy but I also say get the RAS II.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:09:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Texas_Sig:
I'm in the process of converting my 16" HBAR carbine into a home defense rifle. It currently has an Aimpoint and a BMAS front site gas block and flip-up sight.

I'd like to put a Surefire light on it, and a Tangodown foregrip (or maybe the surefire foregrip).

As such, I need an accessory rail to do this.

I've been looking at both the RAS II and the ARMS SIR, but can't decide between the two. I narrowed it down to these two, since they both have provisions for forward mounting an Aimpoint without any spacers.

Any thoughts on these two rail systems (or another if y'all think something else would be better)?

Weight isn't an issue, and I would prefer to free float the barrel (not a requirement though). I also want something that won't be too difficult to install.

Thanks.



Based off of your requirements, there's only one point that I say is different about the two systems, which concerns how you want to mount and activate your Surefire light.

If you're going to mount it at the 3 or 9 o'clock and activate it with your non-firing thumb, the RAS II would work better, out of the box. With the SIR you might have to buy an additional spacer so your thumb can contact the pushbutton.

Another minor difference, the RAS II uses panels on its rails, with the SIR you remove unused rails.

Other than that, they both are the easiest free floating systems to install, and both are excellent products.


Chris
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:51:37 AM EST
tango down pistol grip might not fit the ARMS SIR
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:31:22 AM EST
I don't think you can go wrong with either of those. I have both and like them. I know you're using an Aimpoint, but if you ever decide to get a 3x9 or something like that, the hump can get in your way. That's not a problem with ARMS. If you get ARMS you'll have to use their rear sight and can't use something like a LMT buis. I've mounted my Surefire M900A on both of those and it works fine.

I think it will come down to what look you like best. I think both look cool.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:35:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:17:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
arms is crappy... get the KAC rasII



+1
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:32:43 AM EST
I know it's not free floated, but I'm a fan of the SureFire rail system. It's quite sturdy and A hell of a lot cheaper than ARMS or Knights.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:19:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By JBritt:

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
arms is crappy... get the KAC rasII



lol! ARMS is most certainly not crappy but I also say get the RAS II.


+1 I like ARMS stuff, but my RAS II is great, especially for the price.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:29:47 AM EST
ARMS products are decidedly NOT crappy!

I own both, the ARMS S.I.R. #45C and the KAC RAS II, they are both great systems IMO.

They are both well made and perform great. The both have Aimpoints M68 mounted and either is choice you'll be proud to own, despite what the guys above say.

Don't ask me which I like better, cus that's too tough a choice, the ARMS lets my ML2 set further forward where I like it and while the hump on the RAS II took some getting used to (looks wise) it holds the M2 equally well.

Both have ARMS #40 BUIS on 'em, which makes the bald faced "crappy" statement look like a sick joke. Perhaps that's their point.

Flip a coin, suspect you'll happy either way it falls......
Mike
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:03:45 PM EST
Get them both. Then a DD, Troy, and a LaRue too. Never stop, just keep going. I tell the doctor that I'm still in control, I can stop next week. Just one more...



Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:33:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 2:34:30 PM EST by mcgrubbs]

Originally Posted By Maverick656:
LaRue handguards.... Surefire M900 if you can afford it..... If you can't afford that then I like the Magpul vert grips the best.



what's that?!?




But, if I had to chose between the two options you gave: RASII with a LaRue low Aimpoint mount.

The Troy MRF-C looks really good also. Won't have that "hump" that the RASII has.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:17:53 PM EST
I have wanted one of those M900 for the longest time, but I can't spend that much money on a light. Or am I just trying to be like Monty.... ?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:40:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:14:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 4:15:26 PM EST by markmcjunkins]
Don't limit yourself to just those two for consideration.
I've seen, held and fired the ARMS, YHM, DD, KAC. The LaRue tubes are of particular interest to me right now.



mark
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:20:51 PM EST
Get the YHM 4 rail and have a lot of extra money.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:03:56 PM EST
I agree with markm..there's so much more out there these days to choose from...LaRue and Troy Industries for example.

A TD vert and a SureFire M96(or something like it) is great choice for flexibility in mounting options. You'll also save a bunch of money over the M900 vert/light combo. IMHO


"ARMS is crappy" careful, 3rdtk is lurking



Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:41:26 PM EST
Wanna laugh? Right click on Kisara's pic and view the properties...........
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 11:50:19 PM EST
...... LumpyLovesARMS.jpg....... That would be even better if one of those rifles sported on Eothing
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:30:22 AM EST
I agree with some of the others...either way is good to go. I went the KAC RAS II route but I'm using an ARMS #40L rear flip-up BUIS (FUBUIS?) The KAC RAS II was a breeze to install and it's rock solid....

Currently, I think the ARMS SIR's are pricing themselves out of the railed forend market. KAC made a great move with their special price on the RAS II...allowed a lot of people to get into a KAC product for not much money so they could see the quality first hand...now if they could just cut prices across the line...

I wish someone (KAC, ARMS, Troy, LaRue, DD, etc...) made a quality AK RAS...hmmm...would probably cost more than the AK...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:44:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 9:06:49 AM EST by jaxson27]
Ok, so I'm a little bias here, however, unless arms has a package deal like ours (KAC), I think your answer is pretty clear. I'm replying only because I see that you're, like many others here are looking for the best bang for your buck. As it is widely known now KAC put together a shot show special this year for our customer's.
the package includes the following:

1ea. RAS II (comes with 3/11 rib panels)- MSRP: $347.00
1ea. Vertical Forward Grip - MSRP: $58.00
1ea. 6 rib panel - MSRP: $22.00

that's a retail value over almost $430.00
and from what I'm seeing you can get that package deal all day long from various dealers in the equipment exchange for under $300.00 all day long. Regaurdless, if I work for this company or not that's a deal on a rail system that I have not seen challenged yet by any other manufacturer!!! Not to mention it's garanteed to be MILSPEC.

Good Luck with your set up!!!!

Jeff

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/809035/ssspic.jpg
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:51:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:53:53 AM EST by new-arguy]
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:10:48 AM EST
thats why i sure didn't... the more i look at my rasII the more i fall in love with it..

falling in love with rifle rails.... yeah i'm there..
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:12:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
I know it's not free floated, but I'm a fan of the SureFire rail system. It's quite sturdy and A hell of a lot cheaper than ARMS or Knights.



not really ... what did you get SF rails for a little undre $200? for $275 i got a vertical grip ($50) and FOUR rail covers...

after you factor in your Vertical grip and covers... its a no brainer...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:15:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By gs430:
I agree with some of the others...either way is good to go. I went the KAC RAS II route but I'm using an ARMS #40L rear flip-up BUIS (FUBUIS?) The KAC RAS II was a breeze to install and it's rock solid....

Currently, I think the ARMS SIR's are pricing themselves out of the railed forend market. KAC made a great move with their special price on the RAS II...allowed a lot of people to get into a KAC product for not much money so they could see the quality first hand...now if they could just cut prices across the line...

I wish someone (KAC, ARMS, Troy, LaRue, DD, etc...) made a quality AK RAS...hmmm...would probably cost more than the AK...



i agree but yeah... AK's are made to be cheap and dirty... can't make anything russian pretty...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:05:50 AM EST
Divin' head long into the Shark tank on this one , I chose the ARMS #50 bi-level and here's why ,
I called Knights one Monday morning with my credit card ready to go , and the guy who answered the phone was a real ball buster - he had short answers , offered no details , in essense he was a customers worst Knightmare . I almost felt bad I had bothered this prick , and the brunt of his answer to me , and what I remembered when I got off the phone was that if it didn't fit , there was no refund ! I had lamented for several months SIR/RAS - SIR/RAS ??? He made my mind up for me in one phone call - perhaps you should call them yourself . I'm not a sensitive guy who felt like he got no respect or dignity , to hell with that I wanted an RASII and this guy snafu'd that in a matter of minutes . I called ARMS my questions were answered by someone who at least sounded like he new their product I had my SIR two days later and was told send it back if there are any problems . In this day and age why on earth would I have ,at the time, given Knights my money ??
I did determine , because I went from a pair of M44 's which although they are not an RASII are
in effect the same thing rail-wise , I dont have enuff gadgets to use all that rail on an RASII even tho' I have every gadet available I can hang on my SIR , I dont regret my choice .
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:49:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 12:01:11 PM EST by jaxson27]

Originally Posted By HAMMERDROP:
Divin' head long into the Shark tank on this one , I chose the ARMS #50 bi-level and here's why ,
I called Knights one Monday morning with my credit card ready to go , and the guy who answered the phone was a real ball buster - he had short answers , offered no details , in essense he was a customers worst Knightmare . I almost felt bad I had bothered this prick , and the brunt of his answer to me , and what I remembered when I got off the phone was that if it didn't fit , there was no refund ! I had lamented for several months SIR/RAS - SIR/RAS ??? He made my mind up for me in one phone call - perhaps you should call them yourself . I'm not a sensitive guy who felt like he got no respect or dignity , to hell with that I wanted an RASII and this guy snafu'd that in a matter of minutes . I called ARMS my questions were answered by someone who at least sounded like he new their product I had my SIR two days later and was told send it back if there are any problems . In this day and age why on earth would I have ,at the time, given Knights my money ??
I did determine , because I went from a pair of M44 's which although they are not an RASII are
in effect the same thing rail-wise , I dont have enuff gadgets to use all that rail on an RASII even tho' I have every gadet available I can hang on my SIR , I dont regret my choice .




Hammer,

Please let me apologize for the unprofessional treatment you received when calling KAC. Unfortnately, sometimes when calling if I myself or the other sales rep here (sean) are not available the calls get bounced around to a select few to take a message in order for me to return the call and get/give you the information in which you desire. It sounds like your unhappy customer, and it is my job to change that. In the future I hope to be able to satisfy your AR needs. Should you every need to contact me with an orders or questions pertaining to product please do not hesitate to give me a call my contact information is listed below. I look forward to serving you with your future AR needs. Again you have deepest apologies.

Best Regards,

Jeff Stien
(321)607-9900 ext: 1330
email: militarysales@knightarmco.com


edit to add: Our policy here is that only retail customer's may use credit cards (visa/Matercard only) And if the part that you ordered is not what you actually needed then you just need to call us and get a return authorization number (RA#). That being said if while you were pushing, punching, twisting, turning, etc.... and damamged your part during install then of course to get a refund would not be very cost effective over time to run a company. However, if the part is "serviceably new" then I would have no problem at all with crediting your account. Now I know that I can't change the past here what's done has been done the only thing I can do from here is ask you to contact me and I will deliver the service in which you are looking for and deserve to get.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:01:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:43:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By jar3ds:

Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
I know it's not free floated, but I'm a fan of the SureFire rail system. It's quite sturdy and A hell of a lot cheaper than ARMS or Knights.



not really ... what did you get SF rails for a little undre $200? for $275 i got a vertical grip ($50) and FOUR rail covers...

after you factor in your Vertical grip and covers... its a no brainer...



Depends on where you shop. I got a SF M73, and four rail panels (in the actual color I wanted-not black) for $200 total. So, if I wanted I could get a KAC vfg for an extra $50, or a TD vfg for an extra $80.

So, for the same price, or for $5 more, I could have what I really wanted in the first place.


I am by no means knocking the KAC SSS, if that is what you want. But, I would hesitate to knock SchlaffTablet's idea.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:20:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:

Originally Posted By jar3ds:

Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
I know it's not free floated, but I'm a fan of the SureFire rail system. It's quite sturdy and A hell of a lot cheaper than ARMS or Knights.



not really ... what did you get SF rails for a little undre $200? for $275 i got a vertical grip ($50) and FOUR rail covers...

after you factor in your Vertical grip and covers... its a no brainer...



Depends on where you shop. I got a SF M73, and four rail panels (in the actual color I wanted-not black) for $200 total. So, if I wanted I could get a KAC vfg for an extra $50, or a TD vfg for an extra $80.

So, for the same price, or for $5 more, I could have what I really wanted in the first place.


I am by no means knocking the KAC SSS, if that is what you want. But, I would hesitate to knock SchlaffTablet's idea.



tis be its own rasII is better... NAH NAH...

heh... more seriously though i see what your saying... i just thought that the quality of KAC outweighted that of SF's first trip into the rail market... free floating was a nice added feature...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:48:19 PM EST
If you decide on the S.I.R...

GET A BI-LEVEL MODEL!!

You'll thank me later.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:13:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By jaxson27:
Ok, so I'm a little bias here, however, unless arms has a package deal like ours (KAC), I think your answer is pretty clear. I'm replying only because I see that you're, like many others here are looking for the best bang for your buck.



I have a BMAS 3 rail gas block on my carbine, instead of a fixed front sight.

Will the RAS II still fit on my rifle?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:06:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Maverick656:
...... LumpyLovesARMS.jpg....... That would be even better if one of those rifles sported on Eothing



www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing26.gif





I think that should be directed toward Kisara don't you......
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:44:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:35:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By brewsky101:
If you decide on the S.I.R...

GET A BI-LEVEL MODEL!!

You'll thank me later.




I'm looking at buying a complete Bushmaster ARMS SIR military version. What's the advantage of the "bi-level" version?

Thanks!

Brad

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:24:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:41:44 AM EST
Please forgive me, I'm not up on the current lingo just yet... When you mean "co-witness", are you referring to having night vision in front of the eotech? If I'm going with a ARMS M2, would the bi-level platform make any difference?

Thanks for the feedback!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:59:02 AM EST
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