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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:33:27 AM EDT
I do not understand why everyone claims that the piston systems are better than the Ar15 gas system. I have seen post after post were everyone claims that gas piston systems are better and more reliable than AR15 gas systems. Isnt the AR15 greatests advantage it incredable accuracy. Arnt weapons like the sig550 and the HKg36 at a disadvantage when they face the AR15 weapon system in long range engagements. I know that most firefights happen at ranges of less than 100 meters. The key term being most isnt it better to have a weapon capable of great accuracy if you need it. I have always been told by my instructors and sergeants that it is better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:36:46 AM EDT
i like mine with gas
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:45:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:47:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Im not in a position to say what its biggest and best advantages are. But to my knowledge, the militaries accuracy requirements are not THAT stringent. I think the biggest thing the AR has going for it is its modularity.

doesnt that strike you as odd why in the hell would we not be concerned with accuracy. The military is not going to be fighting MOUT wars forever.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:50:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i like mine with gas



+1

Gas.........it’s the main thing I share in common with my rifles!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:53:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:11:49 AM EDT
The benefits of the AR platform are:

Lightweight ammunition facilitates being able to carry more ammunition.

Less recoil allows faster aimed shots, ease of training, and more control on full auto.

Lightweight design.

Currently, thanks to the boom in parts, the AR is a very flexible platform and can be configured for a variety of specific uses. Very modular. Also, for civilians, spare parts and magazines are everywhere.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:18:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
The benefits of the AR platform are:

Lightweight ammunition facilitates being able to carry more ammunition.

Less recoil allows faster aimed shots, ease of training, and more control on full auto.

Lightweight design.

Currently, thanks to the boom in parts, the AR is a very flexible platform and can be configured for a variety of specific uses. Very modular. Also, for civilians, spare parts and magazines are everywhere.

those are all great advantages so why in the hell does everyone think the gas piston weapons are better than the ar15 weapons.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:20:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
The benefits of the AR platform are:

Lightweight ammunition facilitates being able to carry more ammunition.

Less recoil allows faster aimed shots, ease of training, and more control on full auto.

Lightweight design.

Currently, thanks to the boom in parts, the AR is a very flexible platform and can be configured for a variety of specific uses. Very modular. Also, for civilians, spare parts and magazines are everywhere.

those are all great advantages so why in the hell does everyone think the gas piston weapons are better than the ar15 weapons.





who is that?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:31:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Im not in a position to say what its biggest and best advantages are. But to my knowledge, the militaries accuracy requirements are not THAT stringent. I think the biggest thing the AR has going for it is its modularity.

doesnt that strike you as odd why in the hell would we not be concerned with accuracy. The military is not going to be fighting MOUT wars forever.



Actually the evolving nature of conflict and combat is that it will be more and more urban in nature as time goes on. Part of that is because more areas are being built up, cities are expanding. Most people live in cities now. So you will see more and more comflicts happening in urban/sububan areas then you will see out on the farm fields and in the woods. I think part of the accurecy issue is the ammo as well, this isn't match loaded ammo and it only has to be able to be shot to what 2MOA at the most? something like that.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:40:05 AM EDT
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.

Avtomat Kalashnikova
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:45:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:58:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:01:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:

Originally Posted By Avtomat_Serpent:
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.

Avtomat Kalashnikova



Quit trolling... and if you think AK's never break or jam, you've not been around very many of them. They dont break or jam often, but when you've been around enough of them, believe me, it happens.



Mine was a POS IMO. I had problems with it all the time, short stroking was the big one. My buddy has a norinco and a MAddi and both of them act up more then my ARs do. Thats just three AKs that I have a lot of experiance with, I've run other folks AKs and not had problems. But yer right, you spend enough time around ANY gun and yer bound to find some with problems.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:04:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Im not in a position to say what its biggest and best advantages are. But to my knowledge, the militaries accuracy requirements are not THAT stringent. I think the biggest thing the AR has going for it is its modularity.

doesnt that strike you as odd why in the hell would we not be concerned with accuracy. The military is not going to be fighting MOUT wars forever.



Good question... but the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING. Fairly adaptable piece of hardware. And the M16A2 variants are all very accurate for military purposes. Can easily engage individual targets out to ahem 500m, depending on the trigger puller.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:05:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 7:07:07 AM EDT by rifleman2000]

Originally Posted By Avtomat_Serpent:
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.

Avtomat Kalashnikova



NEVER JAMS!

NEVER BREAKS... EVER!

And fires super-duper 7.62x39mm.



P.S. Its a commie weapon. Give me 7.62x51mm any day.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:06:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
quote]those are all great advantages so why in the hell does everyone think the gas piston weapons are better than the ar15 weapons.





who is that?


I don't think I'd say everyone, but there's a small but vocal group of people who are constantly bringing it up.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:10:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING.



That's pretty short-sighted and ignorant in my opinion.

Read
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:20:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By catch223:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING.



That's pretty short-sighted and ignorant in my opinion.

Read



Actually, the M16 does not have its roots when caveman threw the first rock. But, your point is taken. Let me revise my statement.

The M16 weapon was devoloped, tested, and approved for service in the Vietnam conflict. Above, someone mentioned that the AR15 platform was soley suited for MOUT, forgetting that is was adopted in a jungle environment; thus proving its serviceability in a variety of environments. The only place it really sucks in is deserts and other environments where engagement ranges can be over 500m.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:49:25 AM EDT
[

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
The only place it really sucks in is deserts and other environments where engagement ranges can be over 500m.



Don't forget, most people fighting against us are using AKs and have a shorter range than that.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:58:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Avtomat_Serpent:
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.

Avtomat Kalashnikova



I truly wish my "AKs" never jammed. Okay, so they are Romanian SAR-1s. I have two of them that have ejection problems.

My Colts run like tops.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:27:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:39:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Good question... but the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING.



No it wasn't. The US wasn't even involved in Vietnam at the time the ARs were being developed, so no particular theater or environment was considered. Eugene Stoner developed the AR10 around the idea of using "aircraft alloys", like aluminum and titanium, to save a lot of weight. Jim Sullivan and Bob Fremont took Stoner's .308 design and scaled it down to .223 in order to have a SCHV entry. The AR15 ended up in Vietnam almost by accident.

-Troy



I HATE CRITICISM!

See above... I should have said the AR15 was tested and fielded in a jungle environment.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:45:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 8:45:16 AM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:49:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
MOC (Minute of Chest) accuracy is all most conventional infantry troops require. If I recall correctly, the milspecs on accuracy for the M16A2 and M4A1 are something near 5MOA.



I htink it's less then that, now to find it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:52:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:55:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:14:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:15:22 AM EDT by boltcatch]
I think the proliferation of gas piston uppers for the AR (at least for civilian use) will depend on price. If the price for the average shooter comes down, more people will probably buy them. With lower price comes more volume of sales and more availability of parts, which would also help make them attractive to shooters. I don't expect them to be the same price as a standard upper, and they certainly cost more to make, but there are only so many people who will shell out the price of an entire regular rifle for an upper.

I think alot of people - especially the high volume recreational shooters - would appreciate an upper that shoots cleaner, and that most of us can't shoot well enough to see any difference in accuracy anyways.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:35:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:06:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
MOC (Minute of Chest) accuracy is all most conventional infantry troops require. If I recall correctly, the milspecs on accuracy for the M16A2 and M4A1 are something near 5MOA.



I htink it's less then that, now to find it.




If I am reading this right, on page 11 (figure 1) shows the POA to be within 5 inches @ 100 yrds for an extreme spread on a 10 shot group.
M4A1 Milspecs
. . .unless it has been changed, since the printing of the above link?



I can't get the thing to open up, but 5MOA seems a bit big to me, I mean thats 25inches at 500yards. I seem to recall it being in the 2MOA area, but Ican't find shit on it. Maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing.....
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:37:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 10:43:31 AM EDT by Variablebinary]
The AR15 and M16 have a lot more going for it than accuracy

The HK and SIG carbines have an inflated reputation as a result of not being sold here in the USA, which leads to novelty, which equates to better to some people.

Consider this:

Diemaco's SFW carbine went head to head with SIG and HK and outright performed better in the British Special forces trails. Clearly pistons didnt help them. Dont know if a Colt M4 would have performed equally, but the potential for reliability, accuracy, and durability in the M16 platform is much greater than people think, even with direct gas

Just about everyone's carbine is "modular" these day, so that isnt really a benefit.

This is the SFW for those that have never seen it

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:39:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 10:40:04 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
Accuracy, reliability (YES, reliability), adaptability and most importantly. ergonomics. Ergonomics perfectly suited to gun fighting.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:03:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
The AR15 and M16 have a lot more going for it than accuracy

The HK and SIG carbines have an inflated reputation as a result of not being sold here in the USA, which leads to novelty, which equates to better to some people.

Consider this:

Diemaco's SFW carbine went head to head with SIG and HK and outright performed better in the British Special forces trails. Clearly pistons didnt help them. Dont know if a Colt M4 would have performed equally, but the potential for reliability, accuracy, and durability in the M16 platform is much greater than people think, even with direct gas

Just about everyone's carbine is "modular" these day, so that isnt really a benefit.

This is the SFW for those that have never seen it
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw-hand.jpg
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw.jpg



When I think of modular guns, just having rails all over it isn't modular. Being able to switch out the barrel with minimul fuss so that the gun can be used in a totaly different roll, now thats modular. (No knock on some of the QC barrel designs and such, but I still think the whole upper switch is still better) The M4/M16 family is still the best in that regard. Pop two pins, pull off upper, replace with new upper, pop in the two pins. That simple. Thats modular. You can go from a CQB 11.5in set up to a sniping set up in under 30seconds. I think one of the best things I ever read on this site was a letter somone posted that was wrote to them about doing PSC work in Iraq. The guy mentions how if need be he'd switch out from a shortty upper to a LR upper when getting to where they were going. Sure it means carrying two uppers, and you don't always have to do that, but I don't think any current military firearm can be switched out faster for mission spesific set ups then the M4/M16.

The other thing with it is as Lumpy said, the ergononics.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:14:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 11:16:11 AM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
The AR15 and M16 have a lot more going for it than accuracy

The HK and SIG carbines have an inflated reputation as a result of not being sold here in the USA, which leads to novelty, which equates to better to some people.

Consider this:

Diemaco's SFW carbine went head to head with SIG and HK and outright performed better in the British Special forces trails. Clearly pistons didnt help them. Dont know if a Colt M4 would have performed equally, but the potential for reliability, accuracy, and durability in the M16 platform is much greater than people think, even with direct gas

Just about everyone's carbine is "modular" these day, so that isnt really a benefit.

This is the SFW for those that have never seen it
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw-hand.jpg
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw.jpg



When I think of modular guns, just having rails all over it isn't modular. Being able to switch out the barrel with minimul fuss so that the gun can be used in a totaly different roll, now thats modular. (No knock on some of the QC barrel designs and such, but I still think the whole upper switch is still better) The M4/M16 family is still the best in that regard. Pop two pins, pull off upper, replace with new upper, pop in the two pins. That simple. Thats modular. You can go from a CQB 11.5in set up to a sniping set up in under 30seconds. I think one of the best things I ever read on this site was a letter somone posted that was wrote to them about doing PSC work in Iraq. The guy mentions how if need be he'd switch out from a shortty upper to a LR upper when getting to where they were going. Sure it means carrying two uppers, and you don't always have to do that, but I don't think any current military firearm can be switched out faster for mission spesific set ups then the M4/M16.

The other thing with it is as Lumpy said, the ergononics.



There are quite a few designs that employ a split upper/lower configuration. The Ar15 isnt the only one
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:56:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By catch223:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING.



That's pretty short-sighted and ignorant in my opinion.

Read



Actually, the M16 does not have its roots when caveman threw the first rock. But, your point is taken. Let me revise my statement.

The M16 weapon was devoloped, tested, and approved for service in the Vietnam conflict. Above, someone mentioned that the AR15 platform was soley suited for MOUT, forgetting that is was adopted in a jungle environment; thus proving its serviceability in a variety of environments. The only place it really sucks in is deserts and other environments where engagement ranges can be over 500m.



When you say that the M16 "was devoloped, tested, and approved for service in the Vietnam conflict", you make people think that Stoner heard that 'Nam was around the corner and so he designed a weapon for it (which we all know is far from the truth).

It was an SCHV adaptation of an existing design in .308. It was "devoloped, tested, and approved" for entry into a "contest" that the .mil put on. Vietnam and the Jungle were NOT concerns of those developing the M16. Weight, reliability, and terminal ballistics were.

Honestly, I am by no means trying to be a critic or beat a dead horse. I just don't want anyone to read what you said and go around telling other guys in the gun shop about how M16's were "developed for JUNGLE FIGHTING", because that would make them sound silly.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:57:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
The AR15/M16 is superb. It is the most reliable and accurate Assault Rifle period. In military evaluation after evaluation the weapon has been placed head and shoulders above ALL others.

The one weakness of the weapon is its gas system. The current development of piston driven operating systems for the weapon was driven by the military as part of a life cycle extension and our involvement was at the request of one of our customers. As a baseline in terms of performance and reliability, piston systems undergoing military evaluation have to be at least AS GOOD as the conventional direct impingement weapons they seek to replace.





Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:10:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
I do not understand why everyone claims that the piston systems are better than the Ar15 gas system. I have seen post after post were everyone claims that gas piston systems are better and more reliable than AR15 gas systems. Isnt the AR15 greatests advantage it incredable accuracy. Arnt weapons like the sig550 and the HKg36 at a disadvantage when they face the AR15 weapon system in long range engagements. I know that most firefights happen at ranges of less than 100 meters. The key term being most isnt it better to have a weapon capable of great accuracy if you need it. I have always been told by my instructors and sergeants that it is better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it.




the LW gas piston system is suppose to be just as accurate as direct gas.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:55:40 PM EDT
MY BET IS 7 PAGES MAX...


Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:12:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 2:14:27 PM EDT by LocknLoaded]

Originally Posted By Avtomat_Serpent:
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.

Avtomat Kalashnikova



who says a AK can never break they can, but not that easlily though.

edited IBTL!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:21:54 PM EDT
if it came down to 30 cal i'd ditch 7.62x39 in a heartbeat, like another said, 7.62x51 in an m14 for me.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:57:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 3:03:54 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By Kal-El:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
I do not understand why everyone claims that the piston systems are better than the Ar15 gas system. I have seen post after post were everyone claims that gas piston systems are better and more reliable than AR15 gas systems. Isnt the AR15 greatests advantage it incredable accuracy. Arnt weapons like the sig550 and the HKg36 at a disadvantage when they face the AR15 weapon system in long range engagements. I know that most firefights happen at ranges of less than 100 meters. The key term being most isnt it better to have a weapon capable of great accuracy if you need it. I have always been told by my instructors and sergeants that it is better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it.




the LW gas piston system is suppose to be just as accurate as direct gas.



deleted
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:19:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By Kal-El:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
I do not understand why everyone claims that the piston systems are better than the Ar15 gas system. I have seen post after post were everyone claims that gas piston systems are better and more reliable than AR15 gas systems. Isnt the AR15 greatests advantage it incredable accuracy. Arnt weapons like the sig550 and the HKg36 at a disadvantage when they face the AR15 weapon system in long range engagements. I know that most firefights happen at ranges of less than 100 meters. The key term being most isnt it better to have a weapon capable of great accuracy if you need it. I have always been told by my instructors and sergeants that it is better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it.




the LW gas piston system is suppose to be just as accurate as direct gas.



deleted



What did you say?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:49:52 PM EDT
Since the repeatable accuracy allegedly comes from the bolt, barrel and extension functioning together as a unit rather than separate items. Free float tube eliminates the pressure issue. I would think that gas vs piston would not effect it one way or another.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:36:51 PM EDT
When the AR-10, and by extension, the AR-15 were being developed, the overriding criteria in the minds of the designers was mass. Sure, they worked on ergonomics, and of course, it had to be reliable, but the thing that was going to make Armalite rifles different, and saleable, was weight. Hence, the whole reason for being of the company, and the name, ARMALITE.

When the rifle actually made it to production the actual advantage that got the contracts signed was availability. With US troops facing heavy fire from SKS and AK rifles in jungle ambushes, the troops on the ground wanted to be able to return rapid fire in a controllable, yet effective fashion. The only rifle that was ready for production and that had been through military trials with favourable results was the AR-15. Hence, the whole pie went to Colt's by default.

Over the last twenty years, the advantage that has kept the AR-15 in its prominent position is economics. With millions of rifles in circulation, and the supporting development work, spare parts, training and ammunition, there is a huge investment tied up in this rifle. Even if every other 5.56mm rifle on earth was somewhat better than the AR-15, the fact is the powers that be are not going to switch, because the small potential advantages available cannot justify the billions of dollars in cost it would require to throw the AR-15 away.

So what is the real advantage of the AR-15? That depends on who you are, but I bet that all the designers, soldiers and accountants would agree on one thing: nobody gives a royal rat's ass about accuracy. As long as it shoots reasonably well, like less than 6MOA, it is good enough.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:24:38 PM EDT
And its even got a carrying handle just like a briefcase,so I can feel like a businessman,even though I never graduated college.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:45:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kal-El:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By Kal-El:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:
I do not understand why everyone claims that the piston systems are better than the Ar15 gas system. I have seen post after post were everyone claims that gas piston systems are better and more reliable than AR15 gas systems. Isnt the AR15 greatests advantage it incredable accuracy. Arnt weapons like the sig550 and the HKg36 at a disadvantage when they face the AR15 weapon system in long range engagements. I know that most firefights happen at ranges of less than 100 meters. The key term being most isnt it better to have a weapon capable of great accuracy if you need it. I have always been told by my instructors and sergeants that it is better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it.




the LW gas piston system is suppose to be just as accurate as direct gas.



deleted



What did you say?



Doesnt matter, wasnt rude or anything, I'm just tired of reading and talking about LW so I dont want to add fuel that would make this into another LW sales thread. Lord knows there are 100 of them already
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:18:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
The AR15 and M16 have a lot more going for it than accuracy

The HK and SIG carbines have an inflated reputation as a result of not being sold here in the USA, which leads to novelty, which equates to better to some people.

Consider this:

Diemaco's SFW carbine went head to head with SIG and HK and outright performed better in the British Special forces trails. Clearly pistons didnt help them. Dont know if a Colt M4 would have performed equally, but the potential for reliability, accuracy, and durability in the M16 platform is much greater than people think, even with direct gas

Just about everyone's carbine is "modular" these day, so that isnt really a benefit.

This is the SFW for those that have never seen it
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw-hand.jpg
www.gun-world.net/old/USA/M16/diemaco/sfw.jpg



When I think of modular guns, just having rails all over it isn't modular. Being able to switch out the barrel with minimul fuss so that the gun can be used in a totaly different roll, now thats modular. (No knock on some of the QC barrel designs and such, but I still think the whole upper switch is still better) The M4/M16 family is still the best in that regard. Pop two pins, pull off upper, replace with new upper, pop in the two pins. That simple. Thats modular. You can go from a CQB 11.5in set up to a sniping set up in under 30seconds. I think one of the best things I ever read on this site was a letter somone posted that was wrote to them about doing PSC work in Iraq. The guy mentions how if need be he'd switch out from a shortty upper to a LR upper when getting to where they were going. Sure it means carrying two uppers, and you don't always have to do that, but I don't think any current military firearm can be switched out faster for mission spesific set ups then the M4/M16.

The other thing with it is as Lumpy said, the ergononics.



There are quite a few designs that employ a split upper/lower configuration. The Ar15 isnt the only one



This I know, but the AR to me is the easiest one to change stuff out on.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:20:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 4:21:21 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By No1Here:

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
The AR15/M16 is superb. It is the most reliable and accurate Assault Rifle period. In military evaluation after evaluation the weapon has been placed head and shoulders above ALL others.

The one weakness of the weapon is its gas system. The current development of piston driven operating systems for the weapon was driven by the military as part of a life cycle extension and our involvement was at the request of one of our customers. As a baseline in terms of performance and reliability, piston systems undergoing military evaluation have to be at least AS GOOD as the conventional direct impingement weapons they seek to replace.



img342.imageshack.us/img342/661/scar29hr.jpg

img342.imageshack.us/img342/7194/scar48ps.jpg



That gun can't do a damn thing the current M16/M4 family can't. Did you see the section on barrel change? It said in under 5 mins they could change the barrel configuration. I can do it in under 30 seconds with the M4/M16/AR15. There is nothing the next generation wonder guns can do that the current system can't.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:50:33 AM EDT
As far as accuracy is concerned, the Leitner-Wise gas piston AR-15's have not degraded nor improved in avvuracy. That being said, user member az_larry has experienced a 100 FPS increase in velocity with his 10.5 in Leitner-Wise gas piston conversion.


Originally Posted By az_larry:
OK, Darren, your not going to believe this. Remember you told me you wanted to try out the LW upper with an Enidine buffer? Well, I shelled out the $90 and the results are amazing.

10.5 LW upper shooting 55gr XM193 average velocity 2906 FPS! A standard gas 14.5 upper shooting the same ammo averaged 2854 FPS.

So, the combo of the LW upper and Enidine buffer gets better than 14.5 inch performance out of a 10,5 bbl! I have some armor plate I loaned to the PD that I showed that it took a min of 2800 FPS in a 55gr round to penetrate. Couldn't do it with my 10.5 LMT upper or my 11.5 Bushy upper. I'm going to bet that based on the chrono results the LW upper plus Enidine buffer will cut through the armor plate like butter. Hell, the buffer alone may do it on a conventional 10.5 upper. I'll post the results when I get em.




Originally Posted By az_larry:
Someone who responded to this post on the LF board suggested that since the LW bbl is new, and the LMT bbl has a lot of rounds through it (maybe 5000) the results may be skewed. Maybe. Following is my response. He very well may have a good point. I'm not a ballistition. Not sure I can even spell it. But I'm going to have fun finding out


Well, there is a big difference. The LMT upper has at least 5000 rounds through it. The LW has a little under 1000 rounds through it. You can bet I'll do some more testing. For those that are wondering what this is about is I set up a chrono to test the following using the same lot of XM193 55gr ammo. A 14.5 inch bbl, a 10.5 conventional LMT upper and a new LW 10.5 upper and today, I tested the same LW upper with an Enidine hydraulic buffer. The results are as follows.

14.5 upper 2854 FPS average
LW 10.5 upper, standard buffer 2641 FPS
LMT 10.5 upper 2549 FPS, now the kicker
LW 10.5 upper with Enidine buffer 2906 FPS

As much as I like this LW upper I will very shortly have an equal or higher amount of rounds through this upper and will report my findings. As I'm using a full auto lower the round count will accumulate quickly. I also plan (tomorrow) to chrono the LMT and 14.5 upper with just the hydraulic buffer. Hey, if nothing else I'm having a lot of fun experimenting. By the way, I have no relationship with LW or Enidine. I paid full wack for both. I also plan on hitting some armor plate I pulled out of a C-141. This stuff stopped 5.56 out of anything short of 14.5 inches. And it stopped all the 7.62 X .39 and .308 we shot at it. We did get 5.45 X .39 to penetrate it out of an 18 inch bbl. I'll keep evryone updated. But I suspect, the newness of the bbl is not as critical as you think. Rest assured I'll find out!




www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=249960&page=13
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:58:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
As far as accuracy is concerned, the Leitner-Wise gas piston AR-15's have not degraded nor improved in avvuracy. That being said, user member az_larry has experienced a 100 FPS increase in velocity with his 10.5 in Leitner-Wise gas piston conversion.

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=249960&page=13



Well I'd say thats plus.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:44:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
As far as accuracy is concerned, the Leitner-Wise gas piston AR-15's have not degraded nor improved in avvuracy. That being said, user member az_larry has experienced a 100 FPS increase in velocity with his 10.5 in Leitner-Wise gas piston conversion.

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=249960&page=13



Well I'd say thats plus.



Likewise.
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