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Posted: 3/14/2006 7:52:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Im not one who would know for real, but it doesnt really seem like the 6.8 is going anywhere far in the military. As for commercial sale, I think it might take off a little more so than some of the other odd caliber Ar's you mentioned, but I doubt it will ever come close to the popularity of the 5.56 or even .308's.
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Posted: 3/14/2006 8:00:32 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 3/14/2006 8:06:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Ummm......everyone in uniform shooting the 6.8s seem to think otherwise. It's a better cartridge for the carbine/SBR length rifles, getting most of the performance at 16". It hits much harder than the 5.56 and fits inside the AR-15 envelope. It is extremely well suited to FA use, which will be an issue when dealing with SAWs.
Funny thing is that despite heavier recoil, it generates no more torque and thus muzzle climb than the 5.56, possibly due to the very short pressure curve. It's pretty easy to keep all 3 rounds of a burst on a 12" steel gong at 100 yards. Shoot Larue reactives and you'll see the plates go down, while the 5.56 really needs to hit the red zone to do the job. The only reason the 5.56 and 6.8 are popular is the ability to capitalise of cheap surplus ammo. 6.8 and 6.5 ammo is still substantially mroe expensive than surplus and Wolf. The problem is 5.56 doesn't deliver the goods when run from shorter barreled weapons. Simon |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 10:30:34 PM EDT
[#4]
6.8 recoil isn't really THAT bad. A 12" 6.8 isn't as squirrely as a CQBR. And, AFAIK, USAF has funding for purchase of 6.8 weapons. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 11:20:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Ammunition manufacturers will keep providing ammunition, and word is even more manufacturers are tooling up for 6.8. Military adoption is not the only criteria for a cartridge to be successful, and I suspect that the 6.8 will be readily available from now on in the civilian marketplace.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 12:28:49 AM EDT
[#6]
No.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:00:16 AM EDT
[#7]
I think Remington is offering the M700 in 6.8 now.
Cheers, Phil |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:06:50 AM EDT
[#8]
If I thought so I wouln't be doing this
 b]Just an announcement. The GTS/Dennys Guns Recon profile 6.8 barrels and bolts arrived today from White Oak Armament. Each barrel with ship with a 6.8 bolt. HERE ARE THE PICS OF THE 6.8 BARRELS AND A BUILD I DID TONITE TWO OF THE BARRELS, ONE DURA-COATED BLACK AND MASKED FOR LARUE GAS BLOCK.  CLOSE UP OF THE 6.8 BARREL MARKING  RANGE REPORT AND TEST TARGET PICS. AMMO USED WAS HORNADAY 110 VMAX AND REMINGTON 110 GRAIN LOAD, BOTH FACTORY GETTING HER SIGHTED AT 100 YDS. 25 YARD ZERO WAS FIRST. SHOT HIGH AT 100 CORRECTED, TOO LOW, AND THEN RIGHT ON WITH SECOND SHOT TO CONFIRM ZERO  FIVE SHOTS AT 100 YARDS WITH HORNADAY V-MAX 110 LOAD  3 SHOTS WITH REMINGTON 110 GRAIN FACTORY LOAD, 3 SHOTS BECAUSE I WAS FREEZING BY THEN, TARGET IS MIS-LABELED HORNADAY. THIS IS THE REMINGTON LOAD.  The rifle worked just fine and no malfuctions with any of the ammo. Brass was ejected well. I used the rifle pictured above with the MK4 1.5X5 Leupold scope. SPECS ON THE NEW RECON: LENGTH: 16.1" MATERIAL: 416 GRADE 70 STAINLESS WEIGHT: 1LB 14 OZ GAS SYSTEM: MIDLENGTH RATE OF TWIST: 1:11 BARREL EXT. M4 CUT BARREL EXTENSION CHAMBER: 6.8 SPC THREADS: 5/8"X 24 TPI RIFLING: STANDARD CUT RIFLING OPTIONS: MATTE BEADED FINISH N/C ADD'L OPTIONS: DURA COAT $50 I DID HAVE JOHN AT WHITE OAK INCREASE THE DIAMETER OF THE BARREL PROPORTIONAL TO THE INCREASE IN BORE DIAMETER TO KEEP THE WALL THICKNESS OF THE BARREL THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL 5.56MM RECON, IT ALSO KEEPS THE WEIGHT THE SAME ALSO. SO IF YOU HAVE A 5.56MM RECON AND BUILD A SECOND 6.8 RECON THEY WILL HANDLE EXACTLY THE SAME IF YOU BUILD THEM IDENTICALLY. OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE: JUST LIKE ITS SMALLER BROTHER WE CAN SELL JUST THE BARREL AND BOLT OR ANY GAS BLOCKS, GAS TUBE, RAILS, UPPER OR A COMPLETE CUSTOM BUILD. THESE WILL NOT BE ON THE WEBSITE UNTIL SOME TIME TOMORROW. THERE ARE ONLY 11 AVAILABLE ON THIS RUN. MORE WILL BE COMING IN A MONTH OR SO. THERE WERE 12 BUT ONE IS MINE  The price for a RECON SPC 6.8 Barrel with 6.8 bolt will be $355 delivered. Denny  THE BUILD DURA COATED 6.8 BARREL IS TEST FITTED IN THE CMT UPPER  AT THIS POINT THE LARUE BARREL NUT AND RAIL HAS BEEN ALIGNED AND NOW THE LARUE GAS BLOCK AND GAS TUBE ARE ATTACHED  HERE THE LARUE 13.2" RAIL IS CHECKED FOR LEVEL AND THEN INSTALLED  PHANTOM .308 FLASH HIDER IS ATTACHED, THIS IS JUST SERVING AS A THREAD PROTECTOR UNTIL I GET MORE PRI/MSTN 6.8 QUIET COMPS IN  ASSEMBLED UPPER SHOW WITH THE YOUNG MFG CHROME CARRIER THIS RIFLE WILL BE EQUIPPED WITH  BOLT CARRIER, BOLT AND CAM PIN ARE ALL MARKED 6.8 TO AVOID MIX UPS  VIEW 1 OF ASSEMBLED RIFLE  VIEW 2 OF ASSEMBLED RIFLE  SPECS AND PARTS USED IN THIS BUILD GTS 6.8 RECON BARREL 16.1" M4 BARREL EXTENSION 1:11 TWIST STAINLESS CMT/STAG M4 UPPER RECEIVER YOUNG MFG NAT'L MATCH CHROM BOLT CARRIER CMT 6.8 BOLT WITH CRANE O RING LARUE 13.2" RAIL SYSTEM CMT CHARGING HANDLE WITH BADGER ORDNANCE GEN II TAC LATCH TROY IND FRONT AND REAR BUIS TANGO DOWN RAIL COVERS LARUE 1.5 SPR QD SCOPE MOUNT LEUPOLD MK4 30MM 1.5X5 SCOPE WITH SPR ILLUMINATED RETICLE GLOBAL TACTICAL LOWER RECEIVER SER #00001 LMT 2 STAGE TRIGGER WITH KNS PINS MAGPUL MIAD GRIP MAGPUL ENHANCED TRIGGER GUARD LMT SOPMOD STOCK H2 BUFFER WITH TUBBS SPRING NORGON AMBI MAG RELEASE AMBI SINGLE POINT SLING MOUNT RANGE REPORT SATURDAY. I WILL BE SHOOTING WITH LOAD-X, HORNADAY AND REMINGTON AMMO Denny |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:29:45 AM EDT
[#9]
 Nice rifle!
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:30:35 AM EDT
[#10]
I can only speak for myself.
If 6.8 ammo were as cheap and available as .223 then I would switch in a heartbeat. And that’s the key right there. My guess is that if ammo is cheap then civilians will buy the rifles. As far as what the military does… Honestly, that decision rests with a handful high ranking officers and there’s no way to know what they think about the issue. If it were up to the troops I’ll bet we would be switching right now. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:44:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Damn Denny, that 6.8 is just all over the place. Terrible Accuracy I tell ya....just terrible.
Even if Uncle Sam adoptes the 6.8, ammo prices will not come down appreciably as there will not be any surplus, on seconds for a long time. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:49:19 AM EDT
[#12]
6.8 SPC for military use is anything but dead however it has a path to travel; legal reveue, safety certification, DODIC numbers, all of these need to be completed prior to adoption on anything but a limited scale. Are the military seriously pursuing this option - yes, are they in full agreement - no. Does 6.8 SPC meet the requirement - yes. There are purchases of small numbers of weapons going on at the moment and it seems that everyone is waiting for the first group to put their hand up and say we're in.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:03:31 AM EDT
[#13]
I view the 6.8 in civilian hands as either a more effective defensive rifle that 5.56 or a rifle for hunting mid-sized game like hogs or deer.
That said 6.8 ammo is not appreciable more expensive than premium hunting rounds in common calibers and cheaper than the magnums. Most of the guys I have done 6.8 builds for have a specific reason for wanting it. Generally hunting applications but wanting something more powerful than 5.56 in an AR15 package and not as heavy as an AR10. For a range blaster I would of course reccomend a 5.56 due to ammo cost. For most of the guys getting a 6.8 this is what they want and for their purposes ammo cost is not a big issue. Denny |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 2:12:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Unlike some folks, LeitnerWise has provided very good information...
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Posted: 3/15/2006 2:34:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Someone told me the mags are interchangable ,with a minor modification.
This can not be true, 6.8 x 43 , vs 5.56 x 45 ? Or is it? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:03:26 PM EDT
[#16]
[start of rant] This is normal and expected out of DoD and has been for years ( or decades ). Most individuals don't realize that what is now known SOCCOM was targeted to be completely eliminated under the '76-'80 POTUS, if re-elected. The SOF community (NSW, USA & USAF resources) at the time had no preceived value (post Vietnam, pre-Iran). Same applies to more effective round compared the the current 5.56MM (this includes the MK262 Mod0/1). [end of rant] There have been many posts about logistics issues with the 6.8SPC (and others such as the 6.5G) in the field, resupply etc. Under those conditions, if re-supply of any small-arms ammo is an issue, they (former and current) SOCCOM teams can run an AK47/74 better than their opponents. This is a non-issue. IMHO. What is important is a "Land Warfare Legal" cartiridge that drops the opposition faster than any of the current 5.56MM loadings. The 6.8 SPC was the first in place with ALL the requirements. The requirements including terminal performance AND available hardware (16" and shorter barrels & mag capacity). The 6.5G has only recently meet those requirements. I am waiting for DocGKR testing on the 6.5G. As I have posted before, if the 6.5G is equal to or exceeds the 6.8SPC, then I will also have at least two POW (Personaly Owned Weapons) in 6.5G, in addition to my 6.8SPC. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:17:09 PM EDT
[#17]
My what a shooter! The 6.8 does seem to always shoot well out of a decent barrel.....
it's not going away, that's for sure! |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:26:21 PM EDT
[#18]
 , where is this directed? And no it (6.8SPC) is not going away.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:58:42 PM EDT
[#20]
See..another 6.8 that shoots all over the page....LOL.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:15:46 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't think 6.8 is going anywhere but up. It's the only caliber I'd consider in an AR aside from the conventional 9mm, 5.56N, and 7.62N.
I think the 6.5 is a cool round too, but it's still a specialty round. I have had some nasty thoughts of a 16" Rem 700 chambered in 6.5 with a suppressor though. Don't ask, it just popped into my head one day. 
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:17:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Pcurtis
It was originally directed at the groups in dennysguns post....but watersniper's look fine too.......... |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:46:30 PM EDT
[#23]
I would chose either a 6.8 or a 6.5 looooong before a WSSM....
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:00:49 PM EDT
[#24]
My theory is that even if the .mil never ever thinks of the 6.8 or 6.5 again, the demand from civilian shooters is high enough to keep these cartridges around. .mil adoption is not necessary for there to be cheap ammo. Popularity will drive the prices down.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:13:49 PM EDT
[#25]
I hope 6.8 comes commerically available.
Because 5.56 wound probably come down in price. I would be able to buy more. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:17:30 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm not trying to start a flame war here. I've just recently started to read about the 6.8 vs 6.5 calibers. That said, what am I missing here in this data from a Glocktalk Black Rifle thread? It seems to me that the Grendel is superior to the 6.8 Rem SPC across the entire range spectrum from 0 to 1,000yds.
Range(yds) Vel(fps.) ft/lbs. drop(ins.) drift(ins.)Also, why does the 6.8 group have a sticky on the AR15 Discussion link but the 6.5 group only have one under AR Variants? With the Wolf Ammo coming out for the 6.5 rather than the 6.8, it seems to me that the ammo gurus think the 6.5 has a future. Those of you who have one or the other or both, I'd like to understand what you think are the pluses and minuses of each. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:18:40 PM EDT
[#27]
6.8 is commercially available. Rem, Hornady and SSA are all gracing shelves and in stock across the land of Sam.
5.56 is not gonna fall any lower IMO as the rock bottom rpicing is all steel cased and surplus. Simon |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:28:20 PM EDT
[#28]
So, if one waits for the Wolf ammo for the 6.5 to come out this fall, do you think it will help drive down the price of both the 6.5 and 6.8 ammo?
Balistically, it looks to me like the 6.5 is a better round (flatter shooting for a heavier bullet) as it carries its power out farther. What about a 6.8 in a heavier bullet like 130 - 150grn? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:28:26 PM EDT
[#29]
I think 6mmx45mm is the real ticket to a little extra thump out of the AR platform. Same mags, bolts and brass as .556. Get an extra 100 fps for the same bullet weight vs. .556.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:33:08 PM EDT
[#30]
I will seriously look at a Grendel in an AR when it becomes a caliber option I can have MY local and trusted gunsmith/ARFCOM dealer chamber a barrel and tweak it to my liking... If that doesn't become a reality then I may look at an SBR 6.8SPC with an ACOG or something of that nature... (NO I'm not going to pay his 6.5 licensing fees first, either.)
Yes, the 6.5 is supposed to be balistically superior. I don't base my gun purchase decisions based on balistics alone. Apparently most of you do? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:36:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks for sharing Paul. It's nice to have an insider's input. Take care brother. Justin
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:44:41 PM EDT
[#32]
I guess you aren't sincere about that because you could have done what you say you want months ago if you'd even looked into it... www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=329990 Get your credit card ready and act fast when Midway gets another batch of reamers in because they usually sell out quick. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:09:50 PM EDT
[#33]
OK I stand corrected! So Randall and ADCO and Denny can just go to town making these then? (I see Randall is/was in the process of licensing???) Sweet. I'll tell Steve to tool up and make me one. Now do I have to pay for that reamer because it's technically one time use? Or can he pay for it and crank out barrels to cover the reamer cost? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:24:32 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm a HUGE advocate for the Grendel. It's a great round with ballistics that are superior in every way, I believe. The only missing piece was a cheap source of ammo. Insert Wolf here!!!
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:27:59 PM EDT
[#35]
SSA is presently working up .277 (as opposed to 6.8) bullets for the 6.8. These tend to be longer and have a better BC. Just how successfult hey are will be determined by how fast you can drive them. If they can take them to 2,400fps or so....they should comfortably compete.
The 6.8 started life as a fighting cartridge to deliver better terminal effects in an AR-15 package at combat ranges of up to 300m. That's why the development bullets were LOLW compliant OTMs. It's also extremely FA and belt feed friendly with its case profile. All it's development was done using short and shorter barrel lengths. 6.5G started with the premise of designing a case around a VLD type bullet like the Scenar. It's original function was to produce a long range precision AR solution. That's why the development was primarily on rifle length and longer barrels. I am lookign forward to the data from the SBRs. One question that I keep asking and have not yet received a reply to is the function of the 6.5G in FA. OTH I know that 6.8 performs like a champ in FA. I have personally observed 3 round bursts all ringing Larues at 100 yard. Does that mean that 6.5G can't? I dunno.....but I haven't seen it do so. I do KNOW that 6.8SPC is actually safety certified for at least one Service Branch. What I don't get is the notion that there can only be one successor to the 5.56. If 6.8 floats your boat, good luck to ya. If 6.5G floats yer boat, ditto. The commercial reality is that despite the oft repeated claims of the imminent demise of 6.8 is that it is now SAAMi specified and rolling out the doors of 3 major manufacturers to the tune of mroe than 1.5 million rounds a month. It's in Midawy and Cabelas and is now seen on shelves in gun stores. Ammo is catching up with the increasing number of manufacturers offering 6.8SPC. Best of all, I know that it will do 2400fps from a 10.5in barrel. Which is exactly what I am interested in. Simon |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:46:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Simon, Bill answered this question after you asked it in the 6.5 Tactical Update 3 thread: "Fully automatic function was tested and signed off before the units were released." Bill Alexander Also, here is an, albeit short, video of a piston auto running the Grendel. www.aresdefense.com/GSR-35/GSR-35-Grendel.MPG |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:53:08 PM EDT
[#37]
No, they can't get into the buisness of selling Grendel barrels without being licensed by AA. *YOU* as an individual consumer can buy a reamer and send it to the gunsmith of your choice and have him use *your* reamer to make a barrel for you. If you want something really custom, AA has made reamers available to you, but it's going to be more expensive than just buying an upper from a licensed manufacturer and you're on your own as far as tweaking the barrel extension geometry to make it function reliably. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 9:35:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Exactly my (and a lot of other folks) holdup with the Grendel. Even AA himself will tell you that it takes more talent than your average yahoo can muster to assemble a Grendel that works properly. I've waffled back and forth, but held my money so far... I have purchased a box of 6.8 from my local dealer even though I don't have a rifle... just because I can. I asked about the Grendel, and the guy behind the counter said "huh? what type of rifle is that?" So unless my compulsion wins, I will continue to hold my cash until after this majical $5 per box Wolf ammo shows up in "May, June, July". Next time I hear it mentioned, I'm sure it will have changed to August. OR I may just buy a 6.8 now, and sell my AR10 if the Grendel ever makes it to dealers shelves near me. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:10:49 PM EDT
[#39]
I am curious as to how the soon to be released m14 magazine adapter for the MGI lower is going to play into all this. IT will allow the use of a standard sized AR upper to fire .308, or at least the MGI QCB upper. It seems like everyone is trying to get .308-ish performance out of a standard AR platform, now someone has figured out how to get a .308 into an AR...sorta.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 11:12:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Understanding this statement is key to understanding the issue at hand. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 11:13:02 PM EDT
[#41]
The bolt is paper thin. I have some concerns. Not only that, but I have no clue how they plan to time it. AR10 carriers are MASSIVE. |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 3:11:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Are there any gel tests for the available 6.8 rounds? It was my understanding that the excellent results were from early, pre-producton ammo that was significantly hotter than anything being sold, and perhaps a different construction? I am reminded of all the AK74 guys who base their effectiveness claims on the Soviet combat ammo that is not available in the US.
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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:16:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Silver State 115gr OTM comes in at 2650fps form a 16" barrel, which is a smidgen more than the original spec.
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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:36:31 AM EDT
[#44]
I plan to buy a 6.8 upper so I can use my AR for deer hunting this year so I can retire my Model 99 Savage from woods duty. (Anyone know if the 6.8 is legal in Minnesota?) It may not have the ballistics of the Grendal, but I can buy a complete upper for around $350, I can get ammo at the same store where I buy ammo for my Model 99, and deer don't seem to notice minor differences in ballistic charts when they die.
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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:37:26 AM EDT
[#45]
The 6.8SPC will only get stronger, production ammo, mags, suppressors, quality equipment and not to mention it's own merits of a defense round. Don't listen to people that compare it to other cartridges. Take it for what it is and what it will do, others have, and it is catching on. Talk with people that have a 6.8SPC and not folks that just read about it or parrot what others say.You will see alot more of the 6.8 SPC. Get on board, you will love it!
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Posted: 3/16/2006 6:46:44 AM EDT
[#46]
I just learned one strong argument in favor of the 6.8 SPC over the 6.5 Grendal, at least for Minnesota residents: the 6.8 is specifically legal for hunting deer. The 6.5 G is not mentioned by name. That doesn't mean it's illegal, but if you had the bad luck to run up against a game warden with a hard on against black rifles he could at the very least cause you enough problems to end your hunting trip. At worst you could end up an expensive test case, losing your hunting priviledges and rifle in the process. To me that is a hell of a lot more incentive to get the 6.8 then some ballistics chart on the Internet.
But then what do I know? I use my guns for hunting and shooting and don't just yap about them online so I probably don't qualify as an Internet expert. |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 6:58:17 AM EDT
[#47]
Tag because I am torn between the 6.5 and 6.8
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Posted: 3/16/2006 7:00:33 AM EDT
[#48]
This exact issue is addressed in the email below: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:24:52 -0600 From: "Ross Opsahl" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Legal Cartridge list Mark, the list is update approximately annually. If a cartridge meets the statute language for case length and caliber it is a legal big game cartridge regardless if it appears on the "list". Both cartridges you reference meet the caliber and case length minimum and will be added to the list with the next update. Thank you for your interest in the list. Sincerely, 2LT Ross Opsahl >>> Mark Walker <[email protected]> 1/4/2006 9:43:30 AM >>> Hi, I was wondering what it would take to get a couple of cartridges added to your legal cartridge list? I am specifically referring to two current Alexander Arms products, the .50 Beowolf and the 6.5 Grendel. Info on both can be found at www.alexanderarms.com Thanks!! Mark Walker |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 7:10:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Thanks Mark. I'd advise anyone hunting with a 6.5 Grendal in northern Minnesota to print that email and carry it with them while hunting because of the possibility of running into a game warden who is a real Dudley Dooright prick.
To be honest, I haven't encountered a real jackass game warden up there since Ted Sinada retired 15 years ago. Maybe they're being a bit more selective about who or what they hire these days. Every one I've encountered in recent years has been professional and polite. I guess I can't shake the heebee jeebees I still get from the bad old days. |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 7:18:44 AM EDT
[#50]
No problem. It came up earlier, in Jan as you can see, and I figured the issue might as well be addressed right then. Good hunting with whatever you choose!!! |
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