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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/16/2005 8:37:40 AM EDT
With even the smaller peep sight, it seems that you're doing nothing more than looking through a "window" to use the front post.
I can see using it if you have the time to center the post inside the opening of the back sight. But it seems that almost all of my shots are making use of the front post only.
So, what is the point of being able to adjust the rear sight?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:42:21 AM EDT

I don't think I understand your question. Yeah - you are looking through a "window" to the front sight, but as you move that "window", so does your point of impact.

If you have a detatchable rear sight (or someone you know has a flattop) - try shooting with just the front sight (especially from a variety of positions) and you'll see the value.

(Maybe I just misunderstood your whole post - are you REALLY saying the rear sight is unecessary? Or just that the windage/elevation adjustment is pointless, and you'd prefer an A1 sight? Sorry if I'm slow )
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:42:21 AM EDT
Don't understand the question. But you can't shoot accurately at 300m+ without a properly zeroed rifle, using the peep sight. In fact, you would be hard pressed to shoot well at any range without using the rear sight.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:53:58 AM EDT

Maybe I just misunderstood your whole post - are you REALLY saying the rear sight is unecessary? Or just that the windage/elevation adjustment is pointless, and you'd prefer an A1 sight? Sorry if I'm slow

Sorry. Posting from work can sometimes make for disjointed thoughts.
But yes, my basic thought is that I don't see the point of the adjustment on the rear sight. Perhaps the windage would make a difference, if you moved it 10 or more clicks. But when I've been playing with mine, it seems that a click or two makes really no difference in where you are placing the front sight.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:01:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BoogerSnax: But when I've been playing with mine, it seems that a click or two makes really no difference in where you are placing the front sight.


A click on A2 generally equals 1 MOA, or 1" at 100 yards. I gues that's relative to the shooter, but that seems pretty significant to me, Mama.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:04:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:09:25 AM EDT
let me mess with your sights for a minute...then see if you can hit anything

jk..


I had an angry ex that used to do that to piss me off.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:10:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BoogerSnax:

Maybe I just misunderstood your whole post - are you REALLY saying the rear sight is unecessary? Or just that the windage/elevation adjustment is pointless, and you'd prefer an A1 sight? Sorry if I'm slow

Sorry. Posting from work can sometimes make for disjointed thoughts.
But yes, my basic thought is that I don't see the point of the adjustment on the rear sight. Perhaps the windage would make a difference, if you moved it 10 or more clicks. But when I've been playing with mine, it seems that a click or two makes really no difference in where you are placing the front sight.



If you are shooting at relatively short ranges, you are right that you will barely notice a couple of clicks. At 100 yds, one click is about an inch - and since most people do not shoot MOA with iron sights and normal ammo, it is barely noticable. So you are correct that it makes "little" difference for a couple of clicks. (As to using the adjustment regularly - I really only use it to zero the rifle. Once the rifle is accurately zeroed, I rarely touch it.)

However, speaking as a former infantry-man, at 300 yards, a couple of clicks could be the difference between hitting a small target and missing it - which really does show how important the location of the "window" of the peep sight is to accurate shooting.

The peep sight is a HUGE improvement over the notch-type sight that it replaced, in my opinion. Try grab an old mauser or enfield, and try to hit something at 300 yards. Then try with a garand. The mauser of enfield are inherently slightly more accurate, but the peep sight on the garand makes it much easier to pour accurate fire into a target at long range.



Sorry if I sound like I am lecturing. Just want to make sure that I answered what I think your question is.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:12:11 AM EDT
Not to sound like a complete asshat, but if moving your sights 1-9 clicks doesnt make a difference, you need to learn how to shoot your rifle.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:18:54 AM EDT
Fundamentals of marksmanship.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:22:06 AM EDT

However, speaking as a former infantry-man, at 300 yards, a couple of clicks could be the difference between hitting a small target and missing it - which really does show how important the location of the "window" of the peep sight is to accurate shooting.


I've been thinking about it since I posted the original thought. I suppose I wasn't considering that at a longer range, you would be centering the post in the "window" perhaps a bit more, which I understand completely. Having not used these sights on anything ove 50 yards, it just seems that a single click on the rear sight won't cause you to pull over the front sight any at all. 1 click seems like you're not going to notice much difference in the position of the ring.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:25:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Not to sound like a complete asshat, but if moving your sights 1-9 clicks doesnt make a difference, you need to learn how to shoot your rifle.


I'm just syaing that 1 click doesn't seem to move the ring enough to cause a person to actually notice it. Maybe it's more noticeable when focusing on a target over 50 yards, which is the limit of my experience with these sights.
I'm good with old fashioned sights on a Mauser, or an AK, or even the Glock sights, at 100 yards.
But I haven't noticed a reason for the back adjustments at shorter ranges. I need to get to the 100 yard range pretty soon and experiment, I suppose.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:29:43 AM EDT
Cheek weld/stock position/ and head/eye relief (yes even on irons) are also very important...for instance...if you have a carbine with a collapsable stock and it's adjusted on the short side...and you have your head/eye "Too Close To The Rear Sight Apperature"?....where you can "See The World" through the rear peep?...especially the LARGE hole peep?....you're correct...your rearv sight aperature will SEEM TO BE rendering little value accuracy wise...while at the range..punching paper...even at short ranges like 25-50 yds...and more severe at 100yrds.

If you're shooting for accuracy?....

Flip up your "Small Hole" aperature and adjust your stock and cheek placement correctly to where you get a tight and proper sight picture via achieving proper eye relief/distance unto the rear sight aperature....then your clicks will mean something...annnd....have an affect on "Group Centers" at 100 yards.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:33:52 AM EDT
BoogerSnax's question really has nothing to do with the AR-15, it appears he just doesn't understand the concept of a peep sight.

When light passes through an opening, the edges of that opening create a shaded halo, so that the area just inside the edges are a little bit darker than the rest of the opening. If you have a very small hole, the shaded halo takes up most of the circle, leaving only a small pinpoint of bright light at the exact middle.
Pick up a rifle with a peep sight, hold it at arm's length and look at the rear sight. You should see a tiny, bright light in the centre of the peep.

Your eye is a light sensitive organ. It will instinctively seek out that bright point of light at the exact middle of the peep, and align itself directly with it. One does not ever conciously try to centre his eye behind a peep sight, or try terribly hard to centre the front sight in the peep. You focus hard on the front sight, and your eye will line up everything for you automatically. The end result is amazingly precise, so much so that shifting that rear sight even one click will cause a measurable change in point of impact.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:36:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Not to sound like a complete asshat, but if moving your sights 1-9 clicks doesnt make a difference, you need to learn how to shoot your rifle.



This is my impression.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:23:06 PM EDT
I think I understand what he is saying, moving the windage back and forth the aperature does not appear to move much. But you have to look at as an angle. Stick your finger flat on the desk straight, then pivot the tip of your finger an 1/8 inch. Did not move much, but then look at where its pointing across the room, it will probably be 3-4 more inches left at 10-15 feet. Same thing with the windage adjustment, it does not appear to be much at the rifle, but at 100 yds the angle it makes you aim does adjust a significant distance to either side.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 2:57:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 3:00:32 PM EDT by BoogerSnax]
I think my thinking was off by the fact that I did, in fact, have my eye too close to the rear sight.

It's not that I didn't think of the angle issue, but that I found it easy to pop clays on the berm behind the 50 yard target by using only the front sight.
Wow, maybe it'll be even easier to aim if I pull my eye back a bit.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:17:08 PM EDT
I forget the formula but if 1 click will move your shot group 1 inch at 100yds then _____clicks will move your group 1 inch at 25yds.

Basically you will need to turn the nob multiple clicks at shorter ranges.

In basic training the Drill Sgt. told us that the larger peep was for night fire full auto, when the enemy is in the wire. The smaller peep was for all other firing.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:19:56 PM EDT
Try shooting at 500 yards, you'll understand REAL quick.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:49:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BoogerSnax:

However, speaking as a former infantry-man, at 300 yards, a couple of clicks could be the difference between hitting a small target and missing it - which really does show how important the location of the "window" of the peep sight is to accurate shooting.


I've been thinking about it since I posted the original thought. I suppose I wasn't considering that at a longer range, you would be centering the post in the "window" perhaps a bit more, which I understand completely. Having not used these sights on anything ove 50 yards, it just seems that a single click on the rear sight won't cause you to pull over the front sight any at all. 1 click seems like you're not going to notice much difference in the position of the ring.



The bottom line is that you are not using the sights correctly.

First of all, for the AR's sight system to work, you have to center the front post in the rear aperture's "window" regardless of how high the rear sight is. That is how the elevation and windage adjustments work.

How do you think people are able to place accurate shots with the same sights at distances 10X farther than what you shoot?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:51:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 6:51:23 PM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By BoogerSnax:
I think my thinking was off by the fact that I did, in fact, have my eye too close to the rear sight.

Wow, maybe it'll be even easier to aim if I pull my eye back a bit.



Once again, we have a gross conceptual error. The closer the eye is to the rear sight, the better the who system works.

You really need someone to show you how to do this. You are learning some seriously bad habits and they will become very hard to break.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drobs:
I forget the formula but if 1 click will move your shot group 1 inch at 100yds then 4 clicks will move your group 1 inch at 25yds.



Answer in red.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:38:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BoogerSnax:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Not to sound like a complete asshat, but if moving your sights 1-9 clicks doesnt make a difference, you need to learn how to shoot your rifle.


I'm just syaing that 1 click doesn't seem to move the ring enough to cause a person to actually notice it. Maybe it's more noticeable when focusing on a target over 50 yards, which is the limit of my experience with these sights.




THERE"S your issue right there. Of course it doesn't make much of a difference, if you are shooting at 50 yards maximum - ESPECIALLY if you are not a really experienced/accurate shooter.

Think about it this way:

- suppose you are shooting at 25 yds.
- and, suppose you are really not a great shot (about a month ago, I saw a guy shooting an AK at 25 yards, and I swear, he could not keep the shots in a 12-inch circle!!). Let's just suppose that you shoot better than that, but not great. Let's say you get 4-inch groups at 25 yards.

Now, if you are shooting 4-inch groups at 25 yards, how much NOTICABLE effect will adjusting the sight 4 clicks to the left have?? The answer - NOT MUCH!! Because 4 clicks will only have about a 1 inch effect at 25 yards, and if you are shooting ragged 4-inch groups, then you will barely notice a shift of one inch overall.

So yeah - if you are not a great shot (yet ), then you might not really notice a sight adjustment of less than 10 clicks at a relatively low range.


But, for people who are more experienced, and who shoot at longer ranges, you really start to appreciate the slight differences. When I was in the army, range shooting was mostly 200 and 300 yards. At 300 yards, four clicks to the left is what, almost a foot? If you are shooting at a silouette target, that is easily the difference between a hit and a miss.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:42:39 PM EDT
Remove your rear sight and only using the front post place 20 rounds on target at 300 meters and then tell me if the rear windoew does anything for you.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:23:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 12:34:33 AM EDT by Atreides]
I think I understand what you are talking about Booger.

And, after thinking about it a bit I realize how hard it is to put into words. I'm going to use other rifles sight pictures to try and make this more clear.

With an HK peep sight, you line up the front sight hood with the circle of the rear sight, center the front sight blade in those 2 circles then put your target on the top of the post. While looking through your sights the rear sights circle is an obvious circle, but when looking through an AR15 A2 rear sight the peep hole looks MUCH larger, so much so that when you look through it you can see the entire front sight post, it's a matter of perception. Unlike the HK sight there's no front circle to line up....so it ends up like your using your front sight only for aiming. While I understand this line of thinking I don't agree with it. The rear sight still needs to be centered in order to ensure the front sight is lined up correctly.

The AR15/A2 sighting system is kinda unique and takes a little while to get used to even if the exact same criteria for any other type of open sight alignment is used. It LOOKS different, but the theory in aiming is the same. For someone not used to it, the AR15/A2 sight system may seem crude and not precise, but this is an illusion. The open sights of an AR15 works on the same principals of any other peep sight or V-notch sight.

As an experiment, pull your head back from your normal cheek weld. The further back you go, the less of the front post will be seen till finally all you will see is the front post. Now aiming comes more...conventional. You set the base of the blade to the base of the rear sight and center the top of the front blade within the circle, just like a 'normal' peep sight. As I said, it's all a matter of preception. Nothing has changed, your sights are the same sights except the sight picture is now much more limited.

When using an A2 sight all you need to be concerned about is the centering of your front sight post within your sight picture. I know that you can see past the base of the front blade and onto the sight base itself, don't concern yourself with this. All you need to do is center the top of the front sight blade in your sight picture. The adjustments DO work. It's not a matter of "Having the time" to center the front post, THAT'S HOW YOU AIM and AR15. You have to train yourself to center that post in the sight picture every time, the same way on the same spot. Even when using the large apeture rear sight, NOTHING changes. You still center that front post within the sight picture. The only difference is that you have a larger field of view (for close quarters stuff, so you don't get tunnel vision).

Hope this helped.

Oh, one more thing. You need to keep in mind that the AR15 is a Battle Rifle at heart. It was never designed to be a tack driver out of the box. True, a lot of thought has gone into the design of the AR15 to increase accuracy, but at combat distances. Just something else to think about.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:39:54 AM EDT
Wow.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:21:07 AM EDT
I have used std a2 sights out to 600 yards on CMP targets, all 20 were in the black. there is nothing worng with a2 std sights.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 7:01:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By drobs:
I forget the formula but if 1 click will move your shot group 1 inch at 100yds then 4 clicks will move your group 1 inch at 25yds.



Answer in red.



Thank you sir!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 7:03:36 AM EDT
You need to shoot farther than 100 yards. When you shoot from the 200, 300 and 500 yard line, the adjustable sites are priceless.


Max
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 7:06:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxell27:

You need to shoot farther than 100 yards. When you shoot from the 200, 300 and 500 yard line, the adjustable sites are priceless.


Max



Try it on the Marine Corps pop-up range, with Ivan's popping from 25 to 500 meters.

If you think you have time to adjust those sights, you're DEAD.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:16:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Atreides:
When using an A2 sight all you need to be concerned about is the centering of your front sight post within your sight picture. I know that you can see past the base of the front blade and onto the sight base itself, don't concern yourself with this. All you need to do is center the top of the front sight blade in your sight picture. The adjustments DO work. It's not a matter of "Having the time" to center the front post, THAT'S HOW YOU AIM and AR15. You have to train yourself to center that post in the sight picture every time, the same way on the same spot. Even when using the large apeture rear sight, NOTHING changes. You still center that front post within the sight picture.



Hammer. Nail. Head.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:17:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By maxell27:

You need to shoot farther than 100 yards. When you shoot from the 200, 300 and 500 yard line, the adjustable sites are priceless.


Max



Try it on the Marine Corps pop-up range, with Ivan's popping from 25 to 500 meters.

If you think you have time to adjust those sights, you're DEAD.



Use the appropriate tool for the job. Adjust elevation for the KD range. Leave elevation at BZO for the pop ups.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:36:56 PM EDT
Regardless of your sight's settings, you always strive to have the same sight picture -- the front post is centered vertically and horizontally in the aperture, and then have your front post lined up with your target. As sight settings are adjusted, the only thing that changes is the angular relationship between the bore and the target.

If you set a target out at 200/300 yds and started dicking around with the elevation and windage settings, all the while shooting at your target using the above procedure, your groups will walk all over the target. That demonstrates that sight adjustments do have an impact on the target.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:46:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 3:59:25 PM EDT by maxell27]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By maxell27:

You need to shoot farther than 100 yards. When you shoot from the 200, 300 and 500 yard line, the adjustable sites are priceless.


Max



Try it on the Marine Corps pop-up range, with Ivan's popping from 25 to 500 meters.

If you think you have time to adjust those sights, you're DEAD.



Well let's see have you been to Iraq? I have. I leave my BZO the same both times. The original question was what was the purpose of being able to adjust the rear sight. Who has time to adjust your sites at a Marine Corps Pop Up range? WTF? Read the question, ensure you understand it then answer it. Besides that if you are a Marine or was in the Marine Corps, most 0311's are using ACOGs on their M16A4s. You would also know that the Marine Corps has just approved an assault sling so it will be standardized throughout the Marine Corps.

BTW the only pop up ranges I have seen are at Quantico and 29 Palms. What other bases have you been to that have these pop up ranges.

Max
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:52:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 3:54:17 PM EDT by maxell27]
With even the smaller peep sight, it seems that you're doing nothing more than looking through a "window" to use the front post.
I can see using it if you have the time to center the post inside the opening of the back sight. But it seems that almost all of my shots are making use of the front post only.
So, what is the point of being able to adjust the rear sight?

fight4yourrights In case you missed the question, I posted it here again. It's in red. I did not see where he asked about the a Marine Corps unknown distance pop up course.

Max
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:11:57 PM EDT
I'll through my 2 cents in , lol . All I know is I can def tell a dif 1 click makes in elevation or windage at 100yd and I'm half blind lol .
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:32:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 6:33:55 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By maxell27:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By maxell27:

You need to shoot farther than 100 yards. When you shoot from the 200, 300 and 500 yard line, the adjustable sites are priceless.


Max



Try it on the Marine Corps pop-up range, with Ivan's popping from 25 to 500 meters.

If you think you have time to adjust those sights, you're DEAD.



Well let's see have you been to Iraq? I have. I leave my BZO the same both times. The original question was what was the purpose of being able to adjust the rear sight. Who has time to adjust your sites at a Marine Corps Pop Up range? WTF? Read the question, ensure you understand it then answer it. Besides that if you are a Marine or was in the Marine Corps, most 0311's are using ACOGs on their M16A4s. You would also know that the Marine Corps has just approved an assault sling so it will be standardized throughout the Marine Corps.

BTW the only pop up ranges I have seen are at Quantico and 29 Palms. What other bases have you been to that have these pop up ranges.

Max



I think you are misunderstanding me - I said, you don't adjust those sights.

I've not been to Iraq.

I'm not in the Marine Corps.

I'm not a liberty to say which MC pop-up range I shot on.

My compact ACOG cleaned up on the MC pop-up range.



So, what is the point of being able to adjust the rear sight?


By referencing the pop-up range, I was trying to point out that even on a Marine Corp range, you can't use the A2 sights that were developed FOR the Marine Corps.

There are limited circumstances where you can be dicking with the elevation wheel on the A2 sights
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