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Posted: 1/2/2003 6:38:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 7:14:54 PM EST by Cleophis]
Well, ya'll told me so, and I bragged and bragged how I sent 1000 rds. through my Colt M4gery with a shock bezelled Surefire 6P without problem. Hoooaahhh, aint I Mr. Knowitall and all you alarmists who told me it was a bad idea......well you were right. My Surefire 6P aint working. After disassembly it appears that the recoil forced the batteries up into the bezel assembly enough to fubar the contacts. So now you know. It's a bad idea. My 6P will now be confined to my nightstand (Which is fine anyway). Happy New Year and my regrets for not listening. You told me so. I open myself for a bashing so other absent minded souls won't make my mistake.
regards,
Cleophis
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:05:24 PM EST
You're forgiven Rev.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:27:25 PM EST
was this a 6P that was originally designed for the weapon mount, or did you modify a 6P? Just curious, considering I have one mounted.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 2:29:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By aztrooper: was this a 6P that was originally designed for the weapon mount, or did you modify a 6P? Just curious, considering I have one mounted.
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handheld 6P, Fobus mount, Z32 shock bezel, knuckel bump mounted at 6 O'clock on a GG&G UFIR. Everything was working fine up through 1000 and it never flickered at the range. Got home, took it off, put it by my nightstand. Went to use it, no go. Took it apart and I think the two contacts out of the light bezel unit broke after being pinched or battered by the batteries. There is accelerated wear at the battery bases (-) and scratching/wear at the bezel spring. I can only attribute the non functioning to accelerated recoil wear. Will send it back and report here. I cannot recommend this light for weapon use (Surefire expressly does not recommend it for weapon use either). I'd hate to need it and not have it and there's only one reason for a taclight. Aztrooper, if you're a leo, brother, don't make my mistake. My mistake just cost me some time and the whimsical embarassed feeling that one gets when they boofoo'd a piece of gear after being warned. Your mistake could cost you much more. I aint going out there to hunt that goblin...I'm locking my doors and calling you guys....if the goblin tries to get in, he dies. Other than that, ya'll can shoot him, cuff him, whatever. Be careful out there. Cleophis
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 2:50:30 AM EST
For Urbankaos: Maybe 1/8" or a little better extra, but you could adjust it out a little more as the large screws are hexhead and can back out of the base some. [img]http://members.aol.com/pzgr1//wfm6p.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 4:47:48 AM EST
Replace it with a TACM III. Just as bright as a 6P, the same size, and it uses the same batteries. The Delrin case is not as pretty to look at, but tough as nails. The quality of the reflector is also not quite as good as a Surefire, but for $75 or so you can't beat it. If you liked the 6P you'll most likely like the TACM. The next jump up from that is going to be hundreds of dollars.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:24:03 AM EST
Didnt someone post a way to make your own retaining clip so as to stop the batteries from bashing into the light assebly?
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 8:12:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By DevL: Didnt someone post a way to make your own retaining clip so as to stop the batteries from bashing into the light assebly?
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Nope, or I werent paying attention. Please point me in the right direction for making this retaining clip and it will be done. I will then go forth and fire beaucoup more rounds with the retaining clip AND Z32 bezel until it fails and will report back here with pics as a thank you for the help. The Z32 bezel allowed the thing to last a little over 1000 rounds. With me jerking around this way, maybe I can help someone who is thinking of (or using) this type setup for real. HNY, Cleophis
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 10:24:24 AM EST
Here is a quick and easy answer to your problem; [url=http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&carfnbr=93&sesent=0,0]Quick Fix[/url] Folks, I dont know. Its only my opinion, and I can be just as wrong as I might believe anyone else may be, but it is my firm belief that Surefire has done a little testing of their own. They've been building lights like these for many years now. They've been selling the lights to people who use them for real and who need them for real. They say put weapon mounted lights on weapons. People who have been around the lights for long enough agree. I think I do too.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:24:37 PM EST
New-arguy, you advised me against this in a post awhile back. I am curious to see what Surefire says is wrong with it. I aint no scientist, but I know that recoil with those two little dense lithium batteries somewhat suspended in that tube between two little springs probably wasnt good. You can see the scratching on the springs and batteries. I reckon this is kind of like when a plane hits the ground going 600 mph, you keep going at 600 mph too, until you suddenly decelerate to 0 mph like the plane did. While you won't travel far, you hitting anything at 600 mph is unhealthy. I guess the trick is to not allow the things in the tube to be so affected by the recoil whip, ergo, internally dampened, specially designed weapons' lights. I'm going to try the juryrig deal and report back.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 1:41:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 1:46:06 PM EST by urbankaos04]
Cleophis-- I bought an the Sure Fire 9-volt L91 light from Sable Co. I decided to go with this light because the techs at SF stated that the handheld 6P just WASN'T MADE to be used as a weapons light. He stated that even if I used the shock isolated bezel on the 6P it would eventually fail--as you found out. So, with this in mind, I decided to buy the light I mentioned above--the L91. It's also water proof. By the way, this is only the lamp module so you'll need to selec a tail swith cap to complete the unit. I went with the 5" pressure switch. The cost for the L91 was about $77, the cost of the tail switch housing was about $70 (I don't remember), plus I also bought a battery pack and got a deal on a GGG "Down and Dirty Mount." Total cost was around $200. But minus the GGG mount, you should be looking at around $170. I'm looking at using GGG's M3 light mount instead and attaching the light via an ARMS 22 throw lever light mount to mount it to the M3 light mount, which is essentially a small picatinny rail. Don't know yet, though. You could also look at getting a Millenium series light. This lights are different in that they come with either a thumb screw or ARMS throw lever mount BUILT into the body of the tac light. They do run a little more, though. A comprable light to my L91 light would be the M962PN, which is the MU System, 9 Volt, Monetary-On, A.R.M.S. Lever Mount, Waterproof model at [b]$303[/b]. Just check out Sable Co. Sure Fire web page at [url]http://www.sableco.net/id18.htm[/url]. If you got any questions, just call them up. They are pretty cool dudes.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 1:47:43 PM EST
A lot of people said it, but you had the GUTS to prove it. I consider it the supreme sacrifice. On behalf of us all, thank you, brave soul. [;)]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 2:28:21 PM EST
So what is the average life of the light under normal operatng conditions for those who have had failures? 500 rounds? 1000 rounds? What will need to be replaced? Just the P60 assembly?
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 7:35:14 PM EST
I'm pretty sure the point is that there is no average life. Some may never see failure, some may very quickly. Thats why when you need to be sure, you take as much risk out of the mix as you can by getting a weapons specific light.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 7:23:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2003 7:25:01 PM EST by Cleophis]
Originally Posted By new-arguy: I'm pretty sure the point is that there is no average life. Some may never see failure, some may very quickly. Thats why when you need to be sure, you take as much risk out of the mix as you can by getting a weapons specific light.
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NewAR, if you or someone else would kindly post the instructions or link to same re battery buffers I will make them, install them, and once again shoot the 6P until it fails. I appreciate the compliment SJ. I'm usually a victim of my own hardheadedness, but the lessons I learn are long lasting and those around me usually benefit ;)
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 7:31:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2003 7:38:20 PM EST by new-arguy]
I really have no idea how the battery sticks are made. The best person on the board to ask might be Ken J Good or Size15's (Al). However, I'm not sure of just a battery stick would have prevented your problem. Your problem was the batteries slamming into the bulb. The stick only keeps the batteries from smcking into eachother. They will still smack into the bulb on a 6P. The weapon specific lights isolate the bulb from the batteries all together. The batteries actually dont touch the bulb at all. You just cant do that with a 6P. Those are the 3 MAIN differences between weapon lights and hand helds. 1. Shock isolated bezel 2. Battery sticks 3. Completely seperating the batteries from the bulb.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 7:35:25 PM EST
I've got at least that many rounds through my lightweight AR with a G2 (Nitrolon bodied 6P) mounted in a non-shock mount attached to the front sight base. Light still works fine. Perhaps the Nitrolon body and the weight reduction provides sufficent anti-shock properties.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 10:40:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2003 11:01:52 PM EST by diverdown]
I know, I know, "You get what you pay for." I still say Surefire weapon lights are [b][i]RIDICULOUSLY[/b][/i] expensive. Edited to add: BTW, WTF with the silver, er...excuse me, "gunmetal grey" finish?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:56:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 6:59:23 AM EST by new-arguy]
No Surefire weapon lights or SpecOps lights have that gun metal (silver) finish. Only some of the personal lights have that finish, and unless mistaken it is usually only an option. The Hard Anodized dull grey finish of the weapon lights and SpecOp lights is a MUCH more durable finish than the older standard black finish. This is not specificly related, but it is generall related to why it is an advantage to having these accessories finished in grey. I am stealing it from another post in the optics forum, and for those of you who may not be aware, 3rdtk speaks from experience;
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: If you look around you will notice that a lot of products are done on grey, espec. a lot that are used by spec ops. Why, grey is much more dificult to see than black and gives an enemy a harder time to spot the weapon. Black sticks out like a sore thumb. A lot of war time Colt M16A1 weapons were made and they are more grey than black for very good reason, and that is what the mil-spec actualy calls for. Matching color is not good for camo effect, and black black is a commercial thing not military. The companies that go to the extra trouble to give the grey finish are doing our guys a favor. Ever notice the Trijicon military optic's? Good Shootin, Jack
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Link Posted: 1/7/2003 7:24:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2003 10:41:23 PM EST by diverdown]
Thanks for the info. I just got out one of my catalogs, and there definately is a difference between the personal lights, and the SpecOp/weapon light finishes. I have noticed that ARMS finishes their mounts in grey as well. Now that I think about it, there are several other companies that do this as well, although I didn't realize it was a military specification. Hell, that's what Krylon is for. [;D] I guess I was just being a bitch because I think their products are over-priced. Anyway, don't mind me. I was dropped as a child. [BD]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:46:10 PM EST
The SureFire DL223AC two cell battery pack consists of: 1. Two regular 3 volt DL123A's 2. Shrink wrap to hold the battery stick together 3. Flat, soft piece of metal soldered to the two cells, connecting the top of #1 to the bottom of #2 4. A "load washer" (basically, a fiber washer) between the two cells to act as a cushion Here's the deal. Recoil can cause the following to happen to individual DL123A batteries: 1. Battery separation - this means loss of electrical contact and thus the light cuts out 2. Battery terminal battering In addition, a dedicated weaponlight body has a retaining rim machined into the top of the body to hold back the batteries from sliding forward under recoil. If the batteries aren't held back, they can also start to batter the lamp assembly. My suggestion is that if you are using your gear as lifesaving equipment, then get the right SureFire parts. If you want a light for cool looks, fun and games, or other non-lifesaving applications, then drive on. jvn
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 5:39:56 PM EST
Has anyone heard of an instance of the G2 or 6P going out in less than 500-1000 rounds? I understand the batteries can batter the light over time but wouldnt swapping the bulb/reflector every 500-1000 rounds cure the problem for WAY less money? Also dont the P60 and P61 assemblies burn out rather quickly? Could it have just burned out?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:25:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 6:29:19 PM EST by OLY-M4gery]
Or you could solve the problem by dismounting the light when you are at the range. Or by removing the batteries at the range. No P60's and P61's do not burn out that quickly. I think my currnet P61 is like a year or more old. Another guy who I buy parts for goes through P60's like crazy. He drops his light a lot..........
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:39:43 PM EST
There's no quick fix folks, you can take you ight off, or take the batteries and bulbs out, but the fact remains...
Originally Posted By new-arguy: I'm pretty sure the point is that there is no average life. Some may never see failure, some may very quickly. Thats why when you need to be sure, you take as much risk out of the mix as you can by getting a weapons specific light.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:54:24 PM EST
Correct of course. If it is worth doing it should be done right. But there may be a question of economics. A better solution might be to get an Insight M-3 with the pigtail attachment. If you want to spend appx. the same money. Alternately if you must have Surefire, go with a dedicated 9v weapon light. Trying to adapt their stuff from handheld to weapon light is really expensive. Plus most of their dedicated weapon lights will take regular batteries without "recoil" issues. A 6P thrown onto a weapon may be a choice if you already have a 6P and are just trying to make it work "in case". If so buy the battery stick, and extra bulb assemblies. Keep the light off the weapon when "plinking". If you need it in a defense type siuation realize it may not survive that long. New-arguy, I understand entirely what you mean. But even with a brand new Surefire dedicate weaponlight, the bulb could just burn out the exact time you need it.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 7:20:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: New-arguy, I understand entirely what you mean. But even with a brand new Surefire dedicate weaponlight, the bulb could just burn out the exact time you need it.
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I understand and agree 100%. Which is why I only say getting a weapons specific light only takes the max amount of risk out of the picture. Nothing will take all the risk out.
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