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Posted: 5/21/2021 12:43:38 PM EDT
| Is there a performance difference in IMI m193 based on where you buy it? Midway and sgammo both have it, but in different packaging. Is it all made the same place but just packaged differently? I would guess the Israelis have multiple manufacturing sites to account for bad things happening? Does that account for the packaging difference? |
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I've only ever seen IMI in the plain brown boxes, except for the newer 77gr Razorcore that now comes in the green and white box. I would assume it's the same ammo unless headstamps are different. IMI has done contracts for some larger organizations and ammo companies but usually that ammo will come in other packaging i.e. older Winchester ammo that was made in Israel by IMI for Winchester and came in the typical Win. boxes. |
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This is the question and I had the same one, there's also this difference of branding for m855 on various sites. I was wondering if it was an updated branding thing or a special contract with possible differences or something else. Guess we'll have to test and find out. But the fact the updated image is on both Midway and Lucky Gunner is making lean towards Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: I've asked the IMI guys about this at the SHOT Show, and they tell me the ammo is identical, it's just that they hve different types of packaging for different markets and stuff. |
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Quoted: Nope. It was loaded to the high end of the spec. Now everyone gets to enjoy gimped ammo to appease those who insist on using non-standard chambers and gas systems With velocities over 100 to 150 fps faster than US GI surplus I suspect there were pressure events that generated customer complaints. I value accuracy over velocity, and beating up on my equipment just to gain a little speed doesn't seem like a good investment in the long run. |
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Quoted: With velocities over 100 to 150 fps faster than US GI surplus I suspect there were pressure events that generated customer complaints. I value accuracy over velocity, and beating up on my equipment just to gain a little speed doesn't seem like a good investment in the long run. I think you're thinking of Federal Independence loaded by IMI. When Buffman_LT1 tested the older IMI M193 he got 3203fps (the M193 spec is 3165fps +/- 40fps)  5.56x45mm, 55gr FMJ M193, IMI (White/Tan Box) Velocity |
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Quoted: This is the question and I had the same one, there's also this difference of branding for m855 on various sites. I was wondering if it was an updated branding thing or a special contract with possible differences or something else. Guess we'll have to test and find out. But the fact the updated image is on both Midway and Lucky Gunner is making lean towards https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/360527/imi_1_PNG-1981753.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/360527/imi_2_PNG-1981755.JPG I have a case of the ammo in the first image. Great stuff and zero failures. I need to obtain more. LGS had two pallets of it last month and are down to twelve cases as of today. |
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Quoted: Nope. It was loaded to the high end of the spec. Now everyone gets to enjoy gimped ammo to appease those who insist on using non-standard chambers and gas systems Quoted: Nope. It was loaded to the high end of the spec. Now everyone gets to enjoy gimped ammo to appease those who insist on using non-standard chambers and gas systems Bingo! It's a shame that a very small vocal group ruin it for the entire community. There is currently no source for high end of M193 pressure spec ammo. Quoted: With velocities over 100 to 150 fps faster than US GI surplus I suspect there were pressure events that generated customer complaints. I value accuracy over velocity, and beating up on my equipment just to gain a little speed doesn't seem like a good investment in the long run. Here's an idea. If you don't like shooting hot M193 out of your guns, you can choose NOT to buy that ammo type, instead of advocating for it not being produced to the detriment of the rest of the community... Get yourself some 223 PMC bronze, I hear its nice and accurate for ya! On another note, current production M855A1 (and even M855) has much higher pressure than even the hottest M193 commercial pressure loads... IE, if someone has a problem cycling it, it's 99.9% their non mil spec AR type rifle that's the culprit. |
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Quoted: I think you're thinking of Federal Independence loaded by IMI. When Buffman_LT1 tested the older IMI M193 he got 3203fps (the M193 spec is 3165fps +/- 40fps) The official spec is, 3,165 fps +/- 40 FPS from 78 feet (26 yards) from the muzzle using a 5.56 20" barrel. That equates to around 3,265 fps from the muzzle (+/- 40fps). Most current commercial "M193" clones are no where near that these days. Also, the spec is tested around 70 degrees F. You gain / loose ~ 1 FPS per degree of temp, so you'll very easily see 30fps+ higher velocity around the 100 degree mark ( I know, future test results post coming) and close to 70 FPS velocity loss around 0 degrees F. |
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Quoted: Bingo! It's a shame that a very small vocal group ruin it for the entire community. There is currently no source for high end of M193 pressure spec ammo. Here's an idea. If you don't like shooting hot M193 out of your guns, you can choose NOT to buy that ammo type, instead of advocating for it not being produced to the detriment of the rest of the community... Get yourself some 223 PMC bronze, I hear its nice and accurate for ya! On another note, current production M855A1 (and even M855) has much higher pressure than even the hottest M193 commercial pressure loads... IE, if someone has a problem cycling it, it's 99.9% their non mil spec AR type rifle that's the culprit. Spot on! I've completely changed my tune on M193 based on this very reason. M193 is worthless to me if it isn't on the high end of the spec velocity wise. |
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Quoted: Bingo! It's a shame that a very small vocal group ruin it for the entire community. There is currently no source for high end of M193 pressure spec ammo. Here's an idea. If you don't like shooting hot M193 out of your guns, you can choose NOT to buy that ammo type, instead of advocating for it not being produced to the detriment of the rest of the community... Get yourself some 223 PMC bronze, I hear its nice and accurate for ya! On another note, current production M855A1 (and even M855) has much higher pressure than even the hottest M193 commercial pressure loads... IE, if someone has a problem cycling it, it's 99.9% their non mil spec AR type rifle that's the culprit. I purchased a 450 round case of IMI M193 for $120 on sale four years ago. Haven't fired a single round of it. I bought it because it was cheap. The last time I purchased .223 of any type was around 1984. More people have posted high pressure problems with IMI M193 and 77 grain ammo than any other brand. Some people have chronographed their 77 grain ammo at 2900 fps from 20" barrels! You gain absolutely nothing running ammo this hot. |
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Why do you continue to spew misinformation? If extra velocity didn't matter for FMJ, no one would spend more money to purchase it. The only people having problems with those higher pressure rounds are people with non mil spec AR configurations. Maybe they shouldn't purchase full power mil spec ammo if they have some custom set up gun? The faster the ammo, the more it will fragment, and the farther distance it will fragment. Faster ammo is also flatter shooting than slower ammo. You said you only purchase 5.56 ammo instead of cheaper lower velocity 223 and then say that velocity doesn't matter? 
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Quoted: Some people have chronographed their 77 grain ammo at 2900 fps from 20" barrels! Where can I get some of that? Lol. That heavy bullet (relatively speaking) at that speed must hit like a freight train. I have a couple thousand rounds down the pipe with IMI 77 grain razor core. No issues with popped primers or other signs of overpressure on 15.1, 16, 18, or 20 inch barrels with wylde, CLE, or a normal 5.56 chamber. It's my fav ammo. |
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Quoted: I purchased a 450 round case of IMI M193 for $120 on sale four years ago. Haven't fired a single round of it. I bought it because it was cheap. The last time I purchased .223 of any type was around 1984. More people have posted high pressure problems with IMI M193 and 77 grain ammo than any other brand. Some people have chronographed their 77 grain ammo at 2900 fps from 20" barrels! You gain absolutely nothing running ammo this hot. 77gr Mk262 is supposed to come in around 2750fps from an 18" barrel. Over 2800fps from a 20" shouldn't be hard. Link to the 2900fps chrono results? |
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I said I purchased some IMI m193 ammo four or five years ago because it was so cheap. I have not shot it. That was my first purchase of .223 or 5.56mm since 1984 because I reload in bulk. The pressure problems and velocities have been posted on this site over the years. I don't save them to my phone. Virtually all commercial AR-15's have .223 Wylde chambers or NATO 5.56mm chambers. I don't know of a single major company that uses anything else. So your claim that these problems are the result of poorly spec'd rifles seems like stretch. 2750 fps for M262 from an 18" barrel is a HOT load. As hot as anyone should ever try. It's as hot as the Armed Forces will risk. They seem to be willing to live with higher overhead from longevity issues to increase performance in the short term. I am not. I load 68/69 grain match bullets around 2750 fps from 20" barrels. I load 75/77 grain bullets between 2600 to 2650 max from 20" barrels. Accuracy from both are repeatable sub moa. 100% reliability. Easy on the rifles and the brass. Cost per round around 40 cents a round, with each reloading of the brass cutting the cost even lower. The new m855a1 ammo is raising hell in rifles because of increased chamber pressure and much higher port pressures. Bolt life (cracks) are appearing around 5k to 6k rounds. Gas port erosion has accelerated. This is the end result of pushing the envelope. Store bought ammo should work in every rifle and not generate customer complaints. Unhappy customers, if there are enough of them, will cause a policy shift. Since you haven't popped any primers yet consider yourself lucky. Every consumer is at the whim of the market. Your favorite load may be changed tomorrow, then again six months from now. Companies go out of business, governments can get sanctioned politically, blocking trade with our nation. Your only other recourse is to roll your own. CLE-223, AA-2520 and BL-(C)2 are all capable of very high velocity using 55 or 62 grain bullets. Those would be my first picks if I wanted to go fast. They do create higher port pressures, there is no free lunch. |
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Quoted: 2750 fps for M262 from an 18" barrel is a HOT load. As hot as anyone should ever try. It's as hot as the Armed Forces will risk. They seem to be willing to live with higher overhead from longevity issues to increase performance in the short term. I am not. I load 68/69 grain match bullets around 2750 fps from 20" barrels. I load 75/77 grain bullets between 2600 to 2650 max from 20" barrels. Accuracy from both are repeatable sub moa. 100% reliability. Easy on the rifles and the brass. Cost per round around 40 cents a round, with each reloading of the brass cutting the cost even lower. CBC/Magtech also loads it's military 5.56mm 77gr Mk262 clone to 2790fps from a 20" barrel. Their .223 77gr loads are around the velocities you load to |
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Quoted: Store bought ammo should work in every rifle and not generate customer complaints. Unhappy customers, if there are enough of them, will cause a policy shift. Since you haven't popped any primers yet consider yourself lucky. I've reduced your entire post down to this. You realize that is impossible, and insane to think it possible right? You obviously have no idea how many non mil spec weird barrel, gas system configurations there are out there. Any alteration from mil spec in barrel length, gas port size, gas port location, chamber, barrel material can cause differences in cycling. It is literally impossible to do what you advocate. Also, rifles are designed to work with the ammunition that is developed, not the other way around. This is also putting aside your earlier claim to not understand why velocity is even desirable for 5.56 (the whole reason the round was originally developed). |
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Quoted: Reread my post...... That's 190 to 140 fps faster than my velocity for 75/77 grain bullets Quoted: Quoted: CBC/Magtech also loads it's military 5.56mm 77gr Mk262 clone to 2790fps from a 20" barrel. Their .223 77gr loads are around the velocities you load to Reread my post...... That's 190 to 140 fps faster than my velocity for 75/77 grain bullets Cool. What does that have to do with the fact that military-spec Mk262 and Mk262Mod1 are loaded hotter than your warm-223-level handloads? And that people looking to buy a Mk262 clone load probably want the full-power version? |
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Quoted: I think you're thinking of Federal Independence loaded by IMI. When Buffman_LT1 tested the older IMI M193 he got 3203fps (the M193 spec is 3165fps +/- 40fps)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Jm2KfOemgETA nvm question answered. |
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Quoted: The official spec is, 3,165 fps +/- 40 FPS from 78 feet (26 yards) from the muzzle using a 5.56 20" barrel. That equates to around 3,265 fps from the muzzle (+/- 40fps). Most current commercial "M193" clones are no where near that these days. Also, the spec is tested around 70 degrees F. You gain / loose ~ 1 FPS per degree of temp, so you'll very easily see 30fps+ higher velocity around the 100 degree mark ( I know, future test results post coming) and close to 70 FPS velocity loss around 0 degrees F. IMI military style box 193 Averaged ~ 3303fps out of my SP1 and M-16A1 20 in 1/12 rifles. This is about 10 yds from muzzle and on a low humid 80ish degree day years ago. |
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FWIW... a ton of velocities from a 16" and a 20" AR's the same barrel were used throughout the testing. And yes the data is older.. but still informational. There can be a huge difference in velocities between the various same bullet weights. Look at the Winc. 5.56 77gr Match ( not implying the Winc. is a Mk262 load , but it is marked 5.56 ) load info and compare that to the IMI 77gr. Also, I have no idea if Ball propellant degrades at a different rate than Stick propellant... so IMHO, that should be considered if any differences in velocities over the years. ( Just sayin' ) I do believe IMI has over the years, loaded ammo to quite a few different levels. IE, look at the Fed. Independence 55gr FMJ load, manufactured by IMI around 2013... that load was crazy fast. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Various-Chronograph-results-16-Middie-and-20-Rifle--223-5-56/16-676005/ |
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I want the hottest M193 ammo I can get my hands on. I want the hottest M855 I can get my hands on. Ill take all the Winchester Q3340 I can get my hands on too! The rifles that my wife and I built are both 20" Aero (BA) barrels with rifle gas system. These rifles are what we will depend on to defend our lives and our family's lives. I want the maximum velocity for maximum fragmentation at the furthest distance I can get. Projectile speed equals damage to threat. I want the max. |
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Unfortunately, “the hottest” usually also means “not very accurate.” If the spec for M193 is about 2-3MOA accuracy, when you push it hotter, you’re likely to get more like 4-5MOA, maybe worse. Up close that’s not a huge problem, but if you’re trying to neutralize a threat at more than about 30-40 meters, AND you’re running on 100% adrenalin, you could have trouble keeping your shots to “minute of man” accuracy. Also, exceeding those velocity standards can mean exceeding - or at least pushing - the pressure max, which can cause failures, or even catastrophic weapon failures. There’s also a specific velocity window within which the M193 bullet will reliably fragment and tumble; too fast and you punch through the target without the secondary wounding effects. With M885, you have another issue: that multi-part bullet tends to be less accurate all by itself. You don’t gain anything from punching through the bad guy a bit harder, but you could also wind up with a “not immediately neutralized” threat. The whole point behind the SS109-type bullet is that it flies point-first for a longer distance, so it also pokes smaller holes in bad guys at closer ranges. So I would avoid “the hottest ammo you can get,” and look more for “hot enough” along with “consistent and reliable”. |
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Quoted: I want the hottest M193 ammo I can get my hands on. I want the hottest M855 I can get my hands on. Ill take all the Winchester Q3340 I can get my hands on too! The rifles that my wife and I built are both 20" Aero (BA) barrels with rifle gas system. These rifles are what we will depend on to defend our lives and our family's lives. I want the maximum velocity for maximum fragmentation at the furthest distance I can get. Projectile speed equals damage to threat. I want the max. You realize that terminal performance isn't just a function of velocity right? Projectile design and construction can greatly affect terminal performance. We are not bound to the international customs and laws of war in the CONUS like the military is when fighting another belligerent force in a far off conflict. We are not restricted to FMJ bullet designs. A 55gr softpoint that hits at 2500 fps is going to expand and do much more damage than a 55gr FMJ that hits at 2,700 fps below its fragmentation threshold. I run Speer Gold Dot in my SHTF rifle and even though it is on the lower side of the "Hotness" chart when it comes to velocity, it has excellent terminal performance and penetration. |
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