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Posted: 3/12/2005 9:54:24 PM EDT
I was looking to get one of these uppers Not sure on what I needed to do to get one.

Do I just need to fill out form with ATF ie.tax stamp?

This would be for semi auto...

What is the lenght of time to get this completed?

Or are these uppers primarily made for just full-auto guns?

Any help would be greatly appriciated....

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 10:12:41 PM EDT
Yeah, you have to Form 1 it. Legally it is creating a new firearm.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 10:13:01 PM EDT
pistol you just buy and attach.

sbr - dont know
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 10:46:15 PM EDT
Getting the upper is fairly easy. Putting on a rifle lower is a felony unless you get the tax stamp.

Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:07:21 PM EDT
Is owning a short barrel upper and a fully assembled AR-15 the same as owning an unregistered SBR? It looks suspicious, but is it illegal?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:39:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:47:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:
Is owning a short barrel upper and a fully assembled AR-15 the same as owning an unregistered SBR? It looks suspicious, but is it illegal?



DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226
MAR 29 2000

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received.

Is it legal to own both?

There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time.

If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own?

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's?

Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change.

Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.


If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one?

This question was answered under Question 3.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:15:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:
Is owning a short barrel upper and a fully assembled AR-15 the same as owning an unregistered SBR? It looks suspicious, but is it illegal?



DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226
MAR 29 2000

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received.

Is it legal to own both?

There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time.

If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own?

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's?

Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change.

Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.


If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one?

This question was answered under Question 3.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch




I believe his orginal question is even more clean-cut, because as I understand it Slappyjack is asking whether he can own a SBR upper WITHOUT a registered SBR lower, but with a regular lower.

My impression is that what he is talking about woudl DEFINITELY be an NFA violation (technically)
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:33:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 7:33:58 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:
Is owning a short barrel upper and a fully assembled AR-15 the same as owning an unregistered SBR? It looks suspicious, but is it illegal?



DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226
MAR 29 2000

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received.

Is it legal to own both?

There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time.

If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own?

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's?

Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change.

Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.


If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one?

This question was answered under Question 3.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch




I believe his orginal question is even more clean-cut, because as I understand it Slappyjack is asking whether he can own a SBR upper WITHOUT a registered SBR lower, but with a regular lower.

My impression is that what he is talking about woudl DEFINITELY be an NFA violation (technically)



You could just register as an SBR every AR15 lower you have, then it wouldn't matter any more. I am thinking about doing this after I incorporate just be able to swap and have various barrel configs around and not be hassled with the legality.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:44:54 AM EDT
A related question - if I buy a pistol lower and buy a single 11.5" upper, I'm OK with having other non-pistol ARs in the house, right?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By heavyduty:
A related question - if I buy a pistol lower and buy a single 11.5" upper, I'm OK with having other non-pistol ARs in the house, right?



as long as you dont get caught with the upper seperate and in possesion of your other ar's so best to keep it as one and not seperate.

and if your cleaning it dont clean the others till your done
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:12:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
[ I believe his orginal question is even more clean-cut, because as I understand it Slappyjack is asking whether he can own a SBR upper WITHOUT a registered SBR lower, but with a regular lower.

My impression is that what he is talking about woudl DEFINITELY be an NFA violation (technically)



You could just register as an SBR every AR15 lower you have, then it wouldn't matter any more. I am thinking about doing this after I incorporate just be able to swap and have various barrel configs around and not be hassled with the legality.



Oh I completely agree - if you are incorporated, and feel like spending $200 for every AR you own, sure. That would be the IDEAL circumstance (albeit somewhat expensive )

My point was more to the guy's specific questions - which seemed to be whether or not it woudl be kosher to buy a 10.5" upper and have it laying around with his "regular" AR-15 in the house.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:47:47 AM EDT
First, I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or the Internet.

I BELIEVE, that having a single short barrelled upper, along with a SBR registered receiver, or a pistol receiver, would be an adequate defense against prosecution if other COMPLETE ARs are owned.

Where you COULD run into trouble, is having more SBR uppers, than LEGAL receivers (SBR Registered, or pistol) for them, ALONG with either complete ARs or complete RIFLE lowers.

I hope I'm making this clear. In other words, if you want to have 3 SBR uppers, you need to have three SBR registered lowers or pistol receivers.

While you may claim that the SBR uppers are ONLY for the SBR Registered lower, or pistol, having other AR rifles or lowers MAY cloud the issue enough to cause you legal troubles. And while it MAY in the end prove to be legal, attorney's fees would certainly pay for registering multiple lowers.

MAYBE you could get away with listing barrel length on the Form 1 as 7.5", 10.5", 14.5" etc.. or "multiple', as a pre-emptive defense.

Call me paranoid, but if I'm wrong, I lose very little and when it comes to jail, I like to stay on the overly cautious side of the law.



Lonny
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:58:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:
Is owning a short barrel upper and a fully assembled AR-15 the same as owning an unregistered SBR? It looks suspicious, but is it illegal?



Technically, yes it is and if you read US v Thompson Center you'll see that in order to stay within the law you need to be able to have an end configuration that is legal.

Short barrel upper with only a regular AR in the house, you'll have no legal use for that upper thus you are in violation of the law.

Yes I know that BATFs opinion is contrary to the US v Thompson Center decision.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:12:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frisky-Ferret:

Originally Posted By heavyduty:
A related question - if I buy a pistol lower and buy a single 11.5" upper, I'm OK with having other non-pistol ARs in the house, right?



as long as you dont get caught with the upper seperate and in possesion of your other ar's so best to keep it as one and not seperate.

and if your cleaning it dont clean the others till your done



I have avoided buying an AR pistol for this very reason. Of course, as guy once said to me "If they ATF wants to get you on a weapons violation, they will find one."

One suggestion might be to replace the front push pin with something akin to the Colt threaded bolt with some loctite in it. It would make cleaning a little more difficult, but would definitely show that you do not intend to split the pistol upper and lower apart and remount it on a rifle lower.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:18:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 9:21:32 AM EDT by Slappyjack]

I believe his orginal question is even more clean-cut, because as I understand it Slappyjack is asking whether he can own a SBR upper WITHOUT a registered SBR lower, but with a regular lower.

My impression is that what he is talking about woudl DEFINITELY be an NFA violation (technically)



That is what I was asking. I do not have a registered SBR reciever. I wanted to know if I would be breaking the law by purchasing a 10.5" upper and keeping it in the safe next to a single fully assembled AR-15, and no other AR-15 recievers of any type. Looks like I would be breaking the law so forget that plan.

The following statement is how I'm understanding this. Is it correct? A person should not buy the components for an SBR until they have been approved by the BATF.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:24:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:

Is the following statement correct? A person should not buy the components for an SBR until they have been approved by the BATF.




Sounds like the way to do it, to me.

With ANY NFA weapon, you need to have the approved paperwork in hand BEFORE possessing the item in question.



Lonny
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:32:37 AM EDT
Thanks for the answers, and sorry about the hi-jack. The only reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm reading some of these SBR threads, and I see things like "I got my approval today, so I put my new SBR together." It made me think that they had the components and were just waiting on approval, and that it was legal.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:18:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slappyjack:
Thanks for the answers, and sorry about the hi-jack. The only reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm reading some of these SBR threads, and I see things like "I got my approval today, so I put my new SBR together." It made me think that they had the components and were just waiting on approval, and that it was legal.




I have no doubt that you are correct - and some people get "antsy" about their new SBR, especially since it can take a while for the Form 1 paperwork to meander its way through the ATF morass. My approval took about 6 months, and I was certainly tempted to get the upper so that I could slap them together as soon as the tax stamp arrived. Ultimately I did not, but I imagine many people probably succumb to the temptation. I probably might have myself done so myself , except that I suddenly took a financial hit, and decided to wait to purchase it anyway.

However, it seems to me that when you know the tax stamp is pending, and it is just a matter of time - that it is significantly different from a person who has no intention of applying for the tax stamp, yet owns an SBR upper alongside his regular AR-15's (even though, technically, by the letter of the law, it might be the same offence).


Sorry if I misunderstood your question originally.
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