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Posted: 10/9/2004 8:33:37 AM EDT
I was cleaning my RRA AR and my SIG GSR last night. I used MC-25 to clean the powder and carbon folwing and Butches Bore shine to remove the copper and lead. The patches quit comming out bluish but they kept comming out with black streeks on them when using the MC-25 and a bronz scrub brush. I muct have done this for 3 hours per gun and I NEVER got a patch that was white, they just keept coming out gray with black streeks. I gave up.

What is this black stuff, Carbon? Powder? How do I get 100% of it out?

When looking in the barrols they look brite and shiney but it bugs me knowing I still have some type of folwing in there. I even used Sweets and that had very little blue on it but it did not get all the black out?????

What should I do??? Many many thanks!!!!
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:58:13 AM EDT
Quit and declare victory. It's clean.

FWIW, if you use something like IOOSO Bore Paste or JB paste, patches will always come out balck. Every time. It's the nature of the beast, I think there's a chemical reaction going on there. Just patch out with dry patches until they come out white and finish off with some CLP or gun oil.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 12:22:21 PM EDT
Did you clean the chamber? Often if you neglect to clean the chamber patches can pick up fouling and come out black. Also, the bore may not be broken in properly and there could be alternating layers of copper and carbon that are constantly being disturbed. If that is the case then a bore paste would be a good idea to strip it down to bare metal, followed by a break in procedure.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:18:02 PM EDT
The brush you mention....
was it clean of carbon?

Seriously after 30 passes with the brush, run alternating clean patches of solvent and dry untill they come out clean.

Dadgum bore brushes will leave the carbon from previous use in the bore and have you scrubbing untill the rifling is gone.

"Sandwich fouling" as noted above is also an issue that might be at hand.
Though I have seen it few times in good quality bores with a proper finish.

If the copper is out, and the patches come out clean, you're done.

30 initial passes with the brush should suffice unless you have shot a Butt-ton of lead bullets.
Run the brush, and then set it aside.

What can be loosened by the brush will be by that point.

Don't over think this thing, even if it is easy to do so.

Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 7:01:09 PM EDT
Well the SIG GSR only has 400 total round through it and it was cleaned twice already. Could it have the "sandwitch" problem already?
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 8:14:12 PM EDT
Yeah, if the throat or bore is rough then and it's a good possibility. Most barrels come from the factory a bit rough, except the most expensive (kreigher, pac-nor, etc) that have been finish lapped, but even those must be (slightly) broken in.

read this: http://www.larrywillis.com/Barrel.html
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 8:34:02 PM EDT

I have used J-B & Kroil (check Sinclair’s or Brownells) as my primary's for 15 years. My J-B patches eventually do in fact come out clean. If you have Butches, plug her and try soaking her for 24 hrs. Just some thoughts, I have not used MC-25, does it react/eat bronze? Are you pushing the patch with a brush or a jag? Not shooting moly coated bullets are you?
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:13:27 PM EDT
I'm using a patch and no moly bullets.

Can you soak in Butches for 24 hours with out damage? I tried it on a old Mosin but it was hard to tell if it damaged it as it was so dirty. I don't think it did.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:15:21 PM EDT
About the only solvent I left in a bore for overnight soaking is Hoppe's #9.Its about the only solvent I trust for that in fact.And in fact the Hoppe's works best if allowed to soak for a few days.Thats how I use it anyway.Saturate the bore with #9 and let set for a day and then clean.You would be amazed at how well its works if tou allow it time to work.
Trying to get the bore spotless is a waste of time anyway.Even if you get the bore what appears to be spotless your oil or clp will pull gas fouling out over a period of days.If your using the Mil-comm MC-2500 oil it will really pull funk out after soaking for a couple days.That oil really creeps and penetrates well.Stuff even runs up hill on the metal believe it or not.Cleans well for just a LP.
Just get the bore to where the patches come out with a small amount of grey on the patch and stop there.Oil and check in a few days.If needed clean it again.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:21:11 PM EDT
Oh yeah,like S-28 said.Clean the bore brushes.
I soak my bore brushes in denatured alcohol and rinse with hot water and let dry after each use.This removes carbon fouling and solvent residues from the brushes.Seems to extend brush life as well.This stops the bore contamination from nasty brushes.
I have three bore brushes for each caliber .That way Ive always got a clean brush for my cleaning detail.When one gets gets fouled I drop it in the alcohol and grab a fresh one.
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