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HICAR - High Pressure 82kpsi M855A1+ rifle for SOCOM (Page 4 of 5)
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Originally Posted By banzai70: What about a polymer jacket instead of a copper one? One that wouldn’t fragment on impact. Regardless, The future looks interesting This was being looked into under the 'Aersoshell' concept. Sadly this is the only public refference to it I have found. But it seems like it would be superb for AP loads and potentially cheaper. I also suspect the new PXT rifling would make it more viable, to cause less damage to the polymer jacket. Biggest potential issue is a ballistics guy I know said they differences in density between the core and the exterior jacket might effect accuracy; no idea if this is true. https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/kit/2019/06/11/socom-wants-a-new-armor-piercing-sniper-bullet-heres-one-option-engineers-are-developing/   I've also thought we could see solid steel bullets with polymer driving bands, as currently used in Autocannon ammo. Shown in this slide, projectile with yellow polymer bands: 
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Seekins is also developing a High Pressure barrel similar to the PXT: -Progressive rifling 1:100-1:9 ala PXT -Rounded barrel rifling (also similar to PXT) -GBN200 advanced barrel steel -New type of coating -Plans to open source the tech for other companies https://gunsamerica.com/digest/seekins-barrel-technology-high-pressure-rifles/  Exclusive Interview on Seekins Precision's New Barrel Technology Demonstration shows .338 Norma using Federal PEAK alloy cases firing 300gr @ 2950fps.   ... Meanwhile, Federal just got a US contract for PEAK, which further lends credence to the 5.56 HICAR using PEAK cases. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/us-army-signs-high-performance-ammunition-agreement-with-federal-44828641 US Army Signs High-Performance Ammunition Agreement with Federal |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Progressive rifling was used by the Italians in their 6.5mm Carcano rifles adopted before the 1st WW. What was the twist rate range? I’m used to seeing 15-8 12-7 etc not 100-9 or 200-10 |
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| I also believe if we ever got into a major or even a world war, All copper construction bullets would be quickly removed and good old lead cored/copper or even steel jacketed rounds would reappear because copper would be considered a strategic material that would used for so many other things. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I definitely think PXT and better barrel steels / coatings will be an enabler. Apparently the 80kpsi 7mm Backcountry was a major focus of their testing. And the basic progressive twist 1:500-1:7 style used by Proof has been used for decades by Germany in their 20-27mm Autocannons, so I suspect that style of twist progression would not really be patentable / we could see other barrel manufacturers use similar twists for their high pressure barrels. G$ is working on new barrel alloys, also for High Pressure: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/army-geissele-carpenter-partner-on-next-gen-barrels-44826928 ChatGPT really crushed it with info on potential new coatings beyond regular chrome and nitride. There are apparently much more advanced nitridings that work in Aerospace but have not been used in firearms, and GPT also suggests that GNB 200 steel may be partially designed to work better with nitriding than regular 4150 steel. Whole GPT is worth perusing: https://chatgpt.com/share/6a20d3eb-24f8-83e8-9edd-50895c534c6f "Like" for all these current posts. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: That's hauling ass. The 5.56 velocity seems impossible to me, at least for the barrel length they list - 62gr @ 3313fps from a 10.5". That's like +600fps more then regular 5.56 from the same barrel length, which doesn't seem in line with a +20kpsi boost. The 97gr @ 2500fps from a 10.5" seems more probable though, although I have no real baseline. Why stop at 80kpsi? Why not 100 or 120 and so on? They'll keep pushing the pressure boundary as long as manufacturers can create systems that will handle it. Or until we get portable space lasers. That doesn't mean it ever goes into mass production, but they'll give her a rip in R&D. |
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Originally Posted By PacificNic: Why stop at 80kpsi? Why not 100 or 120 and so on? They'll keep pushing the pressure boundary as long as manufacturers can create systems that will handle it. Or until we get portable space lasers. That doesn't mean it ever goes into mass production, but they'll give her a rip in R&D. Originally Posted By PacificNic: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: That's hauling ass. The 5.56 velocity seems impossible to me, at least for the barrel length they list - 62gr @ 3313fps from a 10.5". That's like +600fps more then regular 5.56 from the same barrel length, which doesn't seem in line with a +20kpsi boost. The 97gr @ 2500fps from a 10.5" seems more probable though, although I have no real baseline. Why stop at 80kpsi? Why not 100 or 120 and so on? They'll keep pushing the pressure boundary as long as manufacturers can create systems that will handle it. Or until we get portable space lasers. That doesn't mean it ever goes into mass production, but they'll give her a rip in R&D. I suspect ~80kpsi has been chosen to allow the rifles to also be able to fire legacy 55-62kpsi brass 5.56. Notably the video above with Geisselle shooting PEAK shows him firing brass and PEAK interchangeably without any change to the gas system. |
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Originally Posted By aftac: I do not think this will be a Tungsten round. Maybe a hybrid just because of the limited amount of Tungsten unless you open up some mines. I think that is why they are looking at pressures and not bullet construction. Hardened steel in an 855A1 style bullet is sufficient for general purpose use. Copper, iron, lead, or bismuth core would be fine. Next gen AP would be the only thing worth expending tungsten for, but frankly, DU would probably be a cheaper alternative. The dual penetrator designs might be worthwhile for that, but cost/return is still a thing. At what distance will it defeat the body armor commonly used by other nations? When is that actually more useful than HE, which is pretty much guaranteed to work better for antipersonnel purposes? |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I suspect ~80kpsi has been chosen to allow the rifles to also be able to fire legacy 55-62kpsi brass 5.56. Notably the video above with Geisselle shooting PEAK shows him firing brass and PEAK interchangeably without any change to the gas system. For HICAR, sure. I was speaking more about what the future would look like since ammo companies will have to be the leading edge of that effort. |
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Start your engines, the High Pressure Age is officially upon us - Federal releasing 6.5cm PEAK @ 80kpsi, and is saying its safe for nearly all factory rifles (although a bit vague on AR10 compatibility). Still, I strongly suspect we'll be seeing 5.56 PEAK released soon if this proves a success. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tfb-review-federal-6-5-creedmoor-peakammunition-is-it-hot-or-not-44828803 https://www.federalpremium.com/65-creedmoor-plus-peak.html  |
My 2 cents....  How the Hypervelocity Improved Capability Assault Rifle (HICAR), will kill the M7. |
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Big fan of your videos and writings. Overall a good overview. I'd say though that I don't think the HICAR / High Pressure 5.56 is going to provide anything like the AP performance of the NGSW 6.8 / be a 300yd AP rifle. Given the low velocity and blunt shape of the 97gr AP load, and the extreme toughness of modern Level IV, I'd expect its probably closer to a 30-100yd round.  Of course with the skyrocketing cost of Tungsten, it's possible we might never have mass issue tungsten ammo for any caliber going forward. |
| Agreed on the 30-100 prediction. Just my opinion but that would be a great capability. There are lots of ways to kill infantry at 600+. Being able to pen enemy armor is mainly a close range issue where quick stops are the difference between life and death. It matches perceived doctrinal future roles for dismounts e.g. sub-T, trenches, etc as well |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Start your engines, the High Pressure Age is officially upon us - Federal releasing 6.5cm PEAK @ 80kpsi, and is saying its safe for nearly all factory rifles (although a bit vague on AR10 compatibility). Still, I strongly suspect we'll be seeing 5.56 PEAK released soon if this proves a success. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tfb-review-federal-6-5-creedmoor-peakammunition-is-it-hot-or-not-44828803 https://www.federalpremium.com/65-creedmoor-plus-peak.html https://cdn-fastly.thefirearmblog.com/media/2026/06/05/06015/post.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1 In context to this specific 6.5CM + PEAK ammo.... I sent a e-mail to Geissele asking if their MRGG is able to "use" this ammo. Federal recommends it is suitable / approved in only firearms "approved" by the various manufactures. "So far , everything I have read says “maybe” in context to 6.5CM semi auto firearms… “Federal advises AR-10 users to consult the individual rifle manufacturer for recommendations on compatibility with higher-pressure ammunition.” I understand the higher 80K in a S/A would certainly need a Adj. GB to help mitigate cyclic issues , and probably need to adjust the “buffer” setup. ( weight recoil spring strength, and buffer weight ) I also understand that this round would likely accelerate barrel wear. And possibly be “harsh” on the bolt lugs. How much ? Who knows so far... but I am curious. It was suggested by Federal that "G" has done semi auto testing with it. I will also ask if the MRGG would be Ok without a "steady diet" of it , depending on their answer. The added 300FPS is alluring. |
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Sounds like HICAR wants a drop in replacement Upper.... for use with the 80K ammo, while still using existing "lowers", sorry if I didn't catch that earlier. https://www.armyrecognition.com/news/army-news/2026/hicar-ussocom-m4a1-82000-psi-556mm-upgrade |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Agreed on the 30-100 prediction. Just my opinion but that would be a great capability. There are lots of ways to kill infantry at 600+. Being able to pen enemy armor is mainly a close range issue where quick stops are the difference between life and death. It matches perceived doctrinal future roles for dismounts e.g. sub-T, trenches, etc as well Completely agree, short range is really where the capability is needed - room clearing, trench clearing, 'stand up fighting' where the enemy is standing and their armor is exposed. An enemy under fire at longer distance will often be using cover that covers their chest anyway (either in the prone or behind something like a rock or a wall) likely muting any AP capability or need, even if AP penetration at that distance was possible. 
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06: In context to this specific 6.5CM + PEAK ammo.... I sent a e-mail to Geissele asking if their MRGG is able to "use" this ammo. Federal recommends it is suitable / approved in only firearms "approved" by the various manufactures. Awesome, thanks for investigating. It will be really interesting how various manufacturers handle the introduction of High Pressure. I suspect it will be drop in for most bolt guns, but will probably require new purpose built semi autos, or something like a conversion kit of larger bolt + corresponding new barrel + barrel extension to work with that beefier bolt. |
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Originally Posted By medieval_flail: Carrying around a huge musket is impractical. Even this HICAR thing is sort of silly when you look at modern near peer war in Ukraine where small arms account for only 14% of casualties. Well, there it is. We should begin issuing the Roman spiculum as the standard infantry arm. |
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06: In context to this specific 6.5CM + PEAK ammo.... I sent a e-mail to Geissele asking if their MRGG is able to "use" this ammo. Federal recommends it is suitable / approved in only firearms "approved" by the various manufactures. "So far , everything I have read says “maybe” in context to 6.5CM semi auto firearms… “Federal advises AR-10 users to consult the individual rifle manufacturer for recommendations on compatibility with higher-pressure ammunition.” I understand the higher 80K in a S/A would certainly need a Adj. GB to help mitigate cyclic issues , and probably need to adjust the “buffer” setup. ( weight recoil spring strength, and buffer weight ) I also understand that this round would likely accelerate barrel wear. And possibly be “harsh” on the bolt lugs. How much ? Who knows so far... but I am curious. It was suggested by Federal that "G" has done semi auto testing with it. I will also ask if the MRGG would be Ok without a "steady diet" of it , depending on their answer. The added 300FPS is alluring. Proof Research is running one of their 6.5CM PXT barrels on a JP-10 and shooting Peak Ammo handloads... https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1H9qpU9gv4/ 
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Originally Posted By vmpglenn: Proof Research is running one of their 6.5CM PXT barrels on a JP-10 and shooting Peak Ammo handloads... https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1H9qpU9gv4/ https://scontent.fmsn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/715690188_1443382874492218_6589099436309966924_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1536x2048&ctp=s1536x2048&_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=YInpuKZ5UR0Q7kNvwFQq3R8&_nc_oc=Adq4fJel2m53_JbyQlMDAYbNU-kYBAU94ToopFXDd150oEjF0T3HvmuEjodfFNIE7oM&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fmsn1-1.fna&_nc_gid=WanKMFek8fN9BBDCXaZA0A&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af-qFE-vZso2kvWWa9RL58N2ELz_eIsiLKosAkZg87aWLA&oe=6A2D40DB Originally Posted By vmpglenn: Originally Posted By bfoosh06: In context to this specific 6.5CM + PEAK ammo.... I sent a e-mail to Geissele asking if their MRGG is able to "use" this ammo. Federal recommends it is suitable / approved in only firearms "approved" by the various manufactures. "So far , everything I have read says “maybe” in context to 6.5CM semi auto firearms… “Federal advises AR-10 users to consult the individual rifle manufacturer for recommendations on compatibility with higher-pressure ammunition.” I understand the higher 80K in a S/A would certainly need a Adj. GB to help mitigate cyclic issues , and probably need to adjust the “buffer” setup. ( weight recoil spring strength, and buffer weight ) I also understand that this round would likely accelerate barrel wear. And possibly be “harsh” on the bolt lugs. How much ? Who knows so far... but I am curious. It was suggested by Federal that "G" has done semi auto testing with it. I will also ask if the MRGG would be Ok without a "steady diet" of it , depending on their answer. The added 300FPS is alluring. Proof Research is running one of their 6.5CM PXT barrels on a JP-10 and shooting Peak Ammo handloads... https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1H9qpU9gv4/ https://scontent.fmsn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/715690188_1443382874492218_6589099436309966924_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1536x2048&ctp=s1536x2048&_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=YInpuKZ5UR0Q7kNvwFQq3R8&_nc_oc=Adq4fJel2m53_JbyQlMDAYbNU-kYBAU94ToopFXDd150oEjF0T3HvmuEjodfFNIE7oM&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fmsn1-1.fna&_nc_gid=WanKMFek8fN9BBDCXaZA0A&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af-qFE-vZso2kvWWa9RL58N2ELz_eIsiLKosAkZg87aWLA&oe=6A2D40DB Very promising, wonder if its using the factory bolt? And whether the PXT gas port is sized specifically for High Pressure ammo. |
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We tried a chem etch gain twist .50bmg barrel at Barrett for a bit. The benefits just weren't there for the .50 Doesn't the Bradley chain gun use a gain twist barrel? |
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Originally Posted By 50cal: We tried a chem etch gain twist .50bmg barrel at Barrett for a bit. The benefits just weren't there for the .50 Doesn't the Bradley chain gun use a gain twist barrel? Apparently the Mauser MK27 27mm Autocannon does, possibly some others. Starts at like 0 twist. |
I think KAC already uses lengthened bolt lugs?
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 HICAR, New Generation SOCOM Platform Requirement |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Its not about ignoring new technology. Bipods and bags and computerized optics are not going to teach you how to be better marksmen. They do absolutely increase hit probability but its not relevant to this discussion. High pressure ammo increases parts wear and breakage. Fact Advanced optics are unreliable and the sig ones the army adopted suck and emits IR that the enemy can hone in on. Fact. If the .gov was serious about the best weapon they would focus on better instruction and more practice with what they have. Fact I agree, technology is a band aide for lack of training. I've never been able to understand why the military doesn't have their troops practicing all the time. The skill to be able to hit what you're shooting at is pretty important to the job. |
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Originally Posted By gunner76: I agree, technology is a band aide for lack of training. I've never been able to understand why the military doesn't have their troops practicing all the time. The skill to be able to hit what you're shooting at is pretty important to the job. Originally Posted By gunner76: Originally Posted By 03RN: Its not about ignoring new technology. Bipods and bags and computerized optics are not going to teach you how to be better marksmen. They do absolutely increase hit probability but its not relevant to this discussion. High pressure ammo increases parts wear and breakage. Fact Advanced optics are unreliable and the sig ones the army adopted suck and emits IR that the enemy can hone in on. Fact. If the .gov was serious about the best weapon they would focus on better instruction and more practice with what they have. Fact I agree, technology is a band aide for lack of training. I've never been able to understand why the military doesn't have their troops practicing all the time. The skill to be able to hit what you're shooting at is pretty important to the job. Being that HICAR is a SOCOM program, not intended for big Army, I dont think lack of trigger time is going to be an issue. This is a fix to a problem identified by the guys that do practice all the time. |
 U.S Special Forces Switch to Hyper-Velocity Rifle |
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Originally Posted By gunner76: I agree, technology is a band aide for lack of training. I've never been able to understand why the military doesn't have their troops practicing all the time. The skill to be able to hit what you're shooting at is pretty important to the job. Priorities and resources... Shooting is only one of many skills and capabilities that need to be trained and resourced... Limited time, limited money, limited ammo, limited training areas... |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I think KAC already uses lengthened bolt lugs?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HLpeoZubIAAZEjA?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 KAC and LMT 308 lugs are longer. |
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Originally Posted By gunner76: I agree, technology is a band aide for lack of training. I've never been able to understand why the military doesn't have their troops practicing all the time. The skill to be able to hit what you're shooting at is pretty important to the job. Firearms as a whole are band-aids for training. They made large conscript armies possible. They and improvements to agriculture that meant you no longer need 85% of your population poking at the ground 24/7 just to prevent famine. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Its not about ignoring new technology. Bipods and bags and computerized optics are not going to teach you how to be better marksmen. They do absolutely increase hit probability but its not relevant to this discussion. High pressure ammo increases parts wear and breakage. Fact Advanced optics are unreliable and the sig ones the army adopted suck and emits IR that the enemy can hone in on. Fact. If the .gov was serious about the best weapon they would focus on better instruction and more practice with what they have. Fact Somewhere someone has a cold calculation for the life expectancy of an infantryman in the modern high intensity conflict. It's likely much shorter than the time it will take to wear out the gun. And for the SOF raids in low intensity situations, they can afford to do the F1 thing where the motor is gone after a season. |
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Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Bolts will be made from super alloys like Aermet 100. Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Originally Posted By CheemsK1500: I have a feeling a lot of bolt lugs are about to be sacrificed. Bolts will be made from super alloys like Aermet 100. Or just physically larger like the SCAR or MK47 Mutant, which are basically like AR10 sized bolts. |
| These high pressure rounds are the next big advance with firearms. Rifles now, pistols later. Looking forward to Federal releasing their 6.5CM +peak next month. |
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So with higher pressures (the kind we’re talking to make this a meaningful change / industry disruptor / “worth it”) we’re talking new platforms. I see it as the same thing as adopting a completely new caliber. Maybe you could retain the lower on the AR platform, but with a new buffer setup, for sure. That’s about it. New everything. And I don’t know about pistol calibers. We already know what +P does, or doesn’t do. At handgun distances, I’m not seeing it. Recoil management will be the killer on this whole thing IMO. Cool, my hand cannon can shoot a bullet 1/3 faster. So what - I can’t follow up any shots. Same with AR platform - FA would need to be able to be just as manageable, double-taps etc. or this whole thing is a non-starter. 5.56 / AR platform is the standard for a reason. Are we going to move to battle rifle like behavior just to get a faster projectile? |
| Higher pressure ammo even in a given caliber is going to increase recoil but you can tame it. I'm shooting 77 SMK out of NAS3 cases at 2950 fps (no idea what pressure that is, but it's pretty high). Adjustable gas block tunes it down to where it isn't an issue to spot impacts for follow up shots. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Higher pressure ammo even in a given caliber is going to increase recoil but you can tame it. I'm shooting 77 SMK out of NAS3 cases at 2950 fps (no idea what pressure that is, but it's pretty high). Adjustable gas block tunes it down to where it isn't an issue to spot impacts for follow up shots. What is the barrel length? |
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: So with higher pressures (the kind we’re talking to make this a meaningful change / industry disruptor / “worth it”) we’re talking new platforms. I see it as the same thing as adopting a completely new caliber. Maybe you could retain the lower on the AR platform, but with a new buffer setup, for sure. That’s about it. New everything. ... Same with AR platform - FA would need to be able to be just as manageable, double-taps etc. or this whole thing is a non-starter. Well the advantage of SCHV rounds like the 5.56 is propelling a light projectile faster increases energy and range more then it does momentum based recoil (Power Factor) ie 62gr @ 2950fps = PF 182 62gr @ 3350fps = PF 207 vs 7.62x39 123gr @ 2350fps = PF 289 This doesn't capture all aspects of recoil (Gas jet effect, bolt impact, effect of muzzle devices) but its a simple rough guide. Theres every reason to think High Pressure 5.56 will still be well bellow AK recoil. |
G$ HICAR / HICAR prescursor?
  
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Higher pressure ammo even in a given caliber is going to increase recoil but you can tame it. I'm shooting 77 SMK out of NAS3 cases at 2950 fps (no idea what pressure that is, but it's pretty high). Adjustable gas block tunes it down to where it isn't an issue to spot impacts for follow up shots. My normal 75gr load is 2800fps and its extremely soft shooting. From a 20" rifle 
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: So with higher pressures (the kind we’re talking to make this a meaningful change / industry disruptor / “worth it”) we’re talking new platforms. I see it as the same thing as adopting a completely new caliber. Maybe you could retain the lower on the AR platform, but with a new buffer setup, for sure. That’s about it. New everything. And I don’t know about pistol calibers. We already know what +P does, or doesn’t do. At handgun distances, I’m not seeing it. Recoil management will be the killer on this whole thing IMO. Cool, my hand cannon can shoot a bullet 1/3 faster. So what - I can’t follow up any shots. Same with AR platform - FA would need to be able to be just as manageable, double-taps etc. or this whole thing is a non-starter. 5.56 / AR platform is the standard for a reason. Are we going to move to battle rifle like behavior just to get a faster projectile? I really don't see the juice/squeeze ratio working out. M855A1 is already pushing the envelope as far as parts life, and out of a 14.5" barrel, it's still effective well past historic maximum engagement ranges for infantry. If the idea is to punch out further, 6ARC gives you a dedicated long range option without the size/weight issues of 308 or 6.5 Seems to me like we've got the same problem as with AI development. What's the actual end goal, here? Greater effective range, better armor penetration, higher profit margins for MIC outfits? We don't need another multi-billion dollar M7 boondoggle to try and push 5.56 a hundred yards further out. And I still don't see armor pen being a realistic goal for any of this horseshit, not even for the M7, unless the intent is for domestic use on US citizens where use of HE would be more heavily restricted. |
New M855A1+ confirmed as Federal PEAK alloy:
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Surprisingly good jap anime overview with 12 views on the HICAR program: ????????????????HICAR???M4?????11?????????600m?? |
Another reason 5.56 PEAK may be attractive is high cost of NGSW ammo:
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Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Bolts will be made from super alloys like Aermet 100. Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Originally Posted By CheemsK1500: I have a feeling a lot of bolt lugs are about to be sacrificed. Bolts will be made from super alloys like Aermet 100. This. It’s criminal that we still use C158 and 4150. There have been better alloys for decades. A simple program for the AR FOW to find the best metallurgy, coatings, and surface treatments, would completely change the life of the rifle. |
HICAR - High Pressure 82kpsi M855A1+ rifle for SOCOM (Page 4 of 5)
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