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HICAR - High Pressure 82kpsi M855A1+ rifle for SOCOM (Page 5 of 5)
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06: spydercomonkey... thank you for the added info. Thanks, happy to be able to contribute. Some thoughts on cost / construction of the new PEAK ammo:
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https://x.com/BrandonFDW/status/2085880665543688483 Some more info / confirmation info...  Geissele HICAR Submission The GFR-X |
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| I’ve been saying this for the last couple years. Higher pressure is the next evolution and it’s coming. As soon as the 227 fury was out and then seeing more super magnums like the 300rum (that’s been out over 20 years now) high pressure is the next evolutionary step. We won’t be getting directed energy in the next 50+ years. But I can see 80-100k loads becoming more common. I wish there was a way to download all my posts and see when I started talking about it. |
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Again, Big Army tries to make a training issue into a hardware issue... The German army figured this out during WW2. Most infantry combat tales place under maybe 200 yds, the majority at very close range. Hence, we had the 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge and the StG44. Vietnam proved the 5.56 round with lighter bullets was more lethal due to bullet tumbling in the target, and 62gr IMHO was the impractical answer to a moot question... I'm no expert, just another old guy with an opinion.. |
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Originally Posted By Ops: Again, Big Army tries to make a training issue into a hardware issue... The German army figured this out during WW2. Most infantry combat tales place under maybe 200 yds, the majority at very close range. Hence, we had the 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge and the StG44. Vietnam proved the 5.56 round with lighter bullets was more lethal due to bullet tumbling in the target, and 62gr IMHO was the impractical answer to a moot question... I'm no expert, just another old guy with an opinion.. Velocity has a major impact on defeating armor. Prepared for the next major conflict that could be peer related means we need to be able to defeat armor. |
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Originally Posted By Ops: Again, Big Army tries to make a training issue into a hardware issue... The German army figured this out during WW2. Most infantry combat tales place under maybe 200 yds, the majority at very close range. Hence, we had the 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge and the StG44. Vietnam proved the 5.56 round with lighter bullets was more lethal due to bullet tumbling in the target, and 62gr IMHO was the impractical answer to a moot question... I'm no expert, just another old guy with an opinion.. Comparing WW2 German weapons to US weapons ignores the doctrinal differences between the two armies. They developed the MP-44, but why never an MG-42 in Kurtz? And the question was not moot. SS109/M855 has much better penetration performance than M193. |
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Originally Posted By FedDC: This. It's criminal that we still use C158 and 4150. There have been better alloys for decades. A simple program for the AR FOW to find the best metallurgy, coatings, and surface treatments, would completely change the life of the rifle. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? |
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Originally Posted By FreefallRet: $50 vs $392 bolt. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? Because C158 is perfectly adequate for an 5.56mm/.223 bolt. |
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Originally Posted By FreefallRet: $50 vs $392 bolt. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? The Aermet is WAY more expensive than traditional bolt steels and its difficult to get a supply allocation on from what i understand. |
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Originally Posted By ObiWanKannoli: The Aermet is WAY more expensive than traditional bolt steels and its difficult to get a supply allocation on from what i understand. Originally Posted By ObiWanKannoli: Originally Posted By FreefallRet: $50 vs $392 bolt. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? The Aermet is WAY more expensive than traditional bolt steels and its difficult to get a supply allocation on from what i understand. I think that's why we will see KAC / Surefire / SIG's method of using a new bolt with longer lugs and/or wider bolt itself vs relying on super alloys being the better option. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I think that's why we will see KAC / Surefire / SIG's method of using a new bolt with longer lugs and/or wider bolt itself vs relying on super alloys being the better option. Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By ObiWanKannoli: Originally Posted By FreefallRet: $50 vs $392 bolt. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? The Aermet is WAY more expensive than traditional bolt steels and its difficult to get a supply allocation on from what i understand. I think that's why we will see KAC / Surefire / SIG's method of using a new bolt with longer lugs and/or wider bolt itself vs relying on super alloys being the better option. What about the 14NiCri18 that HK uses? Or the C158+ that G came out with? Aermet is recognized as being outstanding, but it's not the only option. Proprietary bolts and extensions are all well and good in things like the 416, MCX, SCAR, Bren, and nonstandard calibers, but working within the current industry standard for the AR15 is attractive for everyone that has to deal with a logistics train. The only way this changes is if the military adopts a new design wholesale, making it the new standard. |
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Originally Posted By rb889: What about the 14NiCri18 that HK uses? Or the C158+ that G came out with? Aermet is recognized as being outstanding, but it's not the only option. Proprietary bolts and extensions are all well and good in things like the 416, MCX, SCAR, Bren, and nonstandard calibers, but working within the current industry standard for the AR15 is attractive for everyone that has to deal with a logistics train. The only way this changes is if the military adopts a new design wholesale, making it the new standard. Originally Posted By rb889: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By ObiWanKannoli: Originally Posted By FreefallRet: $50 vs $392 bolt. I agree with you, but can understand the other side of the argument. Aermet 100 sounds like the far superior steel. I wonder why other companies are not using it? The Aermet is WAY more expensive than traditional bolt steels and its difficult to get a supply allocation on from what i understand. I think that's why we will see KAC / Surefire / SIG's method of using a new bolt with longer lugs and/or wider bolt itself vs relying on super alloys being the better option. What about the 14NiCri18 that HK uses? Or the C158+ that G came out with? Aermet is recognized as being outstanding, but it's not the only option. Proprietary bolts and extensions are all well and good in things like the 416, MCX, SCAR, Bren, and nonstandard calibers, but working within the current industry standard for the AR15 is attractive for everyone that has to deal with a logistics train. The only way this changes is if the military adopts a new design wholesale, making it the new standard. I think this is less of a concern here, as these High Pressure guns should also be using new styles of barrel (better steel, better rifling like PXT). Since a new barrel comes with a new extension, that can easilly just be a new extension sized to the stronger bolt. The milspec sized bolt has been one of the weaknesses of the design forever; I don't think other rifles are expected to break bolts or have them be a wear item. And with a big ass bolt that never wears out, it being harder to replace isn't much an issue because you never replace it. Same way no one really worries about having a spare AK or SCAR bolt. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yes, but they are essentially using High Pressure Cases + Advanced barrel tech + Advanced bolt tech, to replicate the 31" weapon w/ M16 ballistics the Stery AUG offered in 1977. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160224/18f780e6cbaa469ced347b61c2b9fd77.jpg Whereas if the High Pressure was fired from a 16"-20" and hitting 3400-3500fps, thats genuinely new ballistic territory, akin to a .22-250, and might actually be able to punch through some Level IV with Tungsten, or III+ with the steel core M855A1. With the new MFMD suppressor design, increase in barrel length over unsuppressed is only like 1", which could allow more 'barrel budget'. https://strategicsciences.us/assets/mfmd/weapon-systems/5-56-urg-i-14-5-md-1-3-side-fe442d88.webp 
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What it boils down to is that they fear an effective resistance to their power: So, Left in power=Guns bad, mmmmkay...?, Right in power=Guns good!-thskirk
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Originally Posted By Alaskanforfreedom: But youre forgetting the simple fact that bullpups are for Eurofags. Originally Posted By Alaskanforfreedom: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yes, but they are essentially using High Pressure Cases + Advanced barrel tech + Advanced bolt tech, to replicate the 31" weapon w/ M16 ballistics the Stery AUG offered in 1977. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160224/18f780e6cbaa469ced347b61c2b9fd77.jpg Whereas if the High Pressure was fired from a 16"-20" and hitting 3400-3500fps, thats genuinely new ballistic territory, akin to a .22-250, and might actually be able to punch through some Level IV with Tungsten, or III+ with the steel core M855A1. With the new MFMD suppressor design, increase in barrel length over unsuppressed is only like 1", which could allow more 'barrel budget'. https://strategicsciences.us/assets/mfmd/weapon-systems/5-56-urg-i-14-5-md-1-3-side-fe442d88.webp While you aren't wrong, the AUG is probably the best assault rifle that ever came out of Europe. Not sure I'd ever consider using a bullpup for 80k psi ammunition, though... 
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Originally Posted By ODA_564: In 20 years, maybe. USSOCOM adopted the M4A1 in 1994, big Army fielded it 2011-14. Reg army took longer, but even NG folks had some M4s in 2007. All we did in 2014 was get M4A1 barrels and full auto FCG swaps. |
 Features everything we've been talking about in this thread (GBN200, gain twist rifling) although the alloy of the bolt is something new, as is the 'phased array' gas system. 
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
https://i.ibb.co/d4b7J1kN/Screen-Shot-2026-08-28-at-3-07-25-AM.png Features everything we've been talking about in this thread (GBN200, gain twist rifling) although the alloy of the bolt is something new, as is the 'phased array' gas system. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HQwuCgrboAAtH6w?format=jpg&name=900x900 Phased array gas system isn't an entirely new Geissele feature. They've been using the gas setup on their sub 10" setups for around a year. |
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I have a dumb question: What happens if you put HICAR technology in a .300 Blackout? Instead of making a very fast round (5.56) go even faster, wouldn't it be useful to make a pretty slow round (110 gr. .300 BLK) into a quick round? It's usually maxing 55k PSI or so. If that bumped up to 85k PSI would the supersonic rounds not suck terribly? I think it would broaden the utility of a rifle like that by pushing the fast side of things further out. You can still use the regular subsonics for quiet stuff but then get a bit less than .308 capabilities by using HICAR supers? Or am I completely off base? |
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Originally Posted By call_me_ski: My big question is how did Geissele manage to hammer forge a barrel with gain twist. I was under the impression that it was impossible. I imagine those german Autocannons (i think 27mm?) that use gain twist are almost certainly hammer forged? Autocanon ballistics makes HICAR and NGSW seem soft. The 27mm is a giant grenade bullet at 3,600fps. |
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Originally Posted By call_me_ski: My big question is how did Geissele manage to hammer forge a barrel with gain twist. I was under the impression that it was impossible. It is impossible to hammer forge gain twist rifling into a barrel. You cannot get the mandrel out. Think about it. What you can do is hammer forge a barrel without rifling then cut gain twist rifling into it. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I imagine those german Autocannons (i think 27mm?) that use gain twist are almost certainly hammer forged? Autocanon ballistics makes HICAR and NGSW seem soft. The 27mm is a giant grenade bullet at 3,600fps. The BK 27's ammunition is the usual 55,000 to 65,000 psi stuff the rest of the world uses, and gets about the same muzzle velocity, in the 3,400 to 3,600 fps range. The reason these cannon (M61, M242, GAU-8, etc) use gain twist rifling is the limited strength of the rotating band, the torque requirement for starting a bullet at the rpm required to stabilize the heavy shells is more than the small surface area under the band can withstand. Some of the lighter shells (APFSDS) can even get away with plastic rotating bands. Artillery, 105mm and 155mm use constant twist rifling, but the area of the rotating band is much larger and this reduces the shear loads on the band-shell interface. |
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: I have a dumb question: What happens if you put HICAR technology in a .300 Blackout? Instead of making a very fast round (5.56) go even faster, wouldn't it be useful to make a pretty slow round (110 gr. .300 BLK) into a quick round? It's usually maxing 55k PSI or so. If that bumped up to 85k PSI would the supersonic rounds not suck terribly? I think it would broaden the utility of a rifle like that by pushing the fast side of things further out. You can still use the regular subsonics for quiet stuff but then get a bit less than .308 capabilities by using HICAR supers? Or am I completely off base? Valid question. It may be tried more likely on the commercial side . 300 savage capabilities? What would need done with the twist rate ? Id like that dust sprinkled on the 277 wolverine. |
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Originally Posted By call_me_ski: My big question is how did Geissele manage to hammer forge a barrel with gain twist. I was under the impression that it was impossible. I wonder if they chf the blank to final size bore and chamber, then cut the rifling. |
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: I have a dumb question: What happens if you put HICAR technology in a .300 Blackout? Instead of making a very fast round (5.56) go even faster, wouldn't it be useful to make a pretty slow round (110 gr. .300 BLK) into a quick round? It's usually maxing 55k PSI or so. If that bumped up to 85k PSI would the supersonic rounds not suck terribly? I think it would broaden the utility of a rifle like that by pushing the fast side of things further out. You can still use the regular subsonics for quiet stuff but then get a bit less than .308 capabilities by using HICAR supers? Or am I completely off base? Definitely see more benefit in 300blk, but only supers, since the subs need to remain subsonic, and 220gr loads are already pushing the limits of COAL, so you can't really push the bullet weight much further. Maybe subsonic loads specifically made for stubby sub-7" barrels like the rattler, loaded just barely under 1000 fps? Main problem would be exacerbating the issue of gassing between subs and supers. |
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Originally Posted By FreefallRet: Yea but we had reg M4s in 2003 in the 82nd. And they had them in 2000 in Kosovo. Reg army took longer, but even NG folks had some M4s in 2007. All we did in 2014 was get M4A1 barrels and full auto FCG swaps. Originally Posted By FreefallRet: Originally Posted By ODA_564: In 20 years, maybe. USSOCOM adopted the M4A1 in 1994, big Army fielded it 2011-14. Reg army took longer, but even NG folks had some M4s in 2007. All we did in 2014 was get M4A1 barrels and full auto FCG swaps. Hell, we had M4s in Hawaii in 1998. We got our first Aimpoints in 1999. |
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: I have a dumb question: What happens if you put HICAR technology in a .300 Blackout? Instead of making a very fast round (5.56) go even faster, wouldn't it be useful to make a pretty slow round (110 gr. .300 BLK) into a quick round? It's usually maxing 55k PSI or so. If that bumped up to 85k PSI would the supersonic rounds not suck terribly? I think it would broaden the utility of a rifle like that by pushing the fast side of things further out. You can still use the regular subsonics for quiet stuff but then get a bit less than .308 capabilities by using HICAR supers? Or am I completely off base? Not dumb at all. It has already been done to some extent and I think the bigger bore is better for the extra powder. While not 85k psi, NAS3 cases have been a walk-off home run for 300blk (unless you need the brass to reload). The touch of extra power really helps this velocity starved cartridge. Phantom Defense NAS3 rounds: 120gr Tac-tx from a suppressed 10.5". 2271 fps = 1374 ft.lbs  +P 300 Blackout??? Holy Penetration!! "Spectre" by Phantom Defense 120gr Tac-tx from a suppressed 16" bolt action. 2436 fps = 1581 ft.lbs  300blk at 1k yards | Ruger American ranch | Phantom defense specter +P I got 2250fps from my unsuppressed 10.5" for this round.  The 110gr Tac-tx NAS3 versions about gained FPS as well, and the new cases also allow for heavier subs like the 238gr and 242gr rounds (1:5 twist only for the subs). Would love to see some true HICAR in 300blk. |
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: I have a dumb question: What happens if you put HICAR technology in a .300 Blackout? Instead of making a very fast round (5.56) go even faster, wouldn't it be useful to make a pretty slow round (110 gr. .300 BLK) into a quick round? It's usually maxing 55k PSI or so. If that bumped up to 85k PSI would the supersonic rounds not suck terribly? I think it would broaden the utility of a rifle like that by pushing the fast side of things further out. You can still use the regular subsonics for quiet stuff but then get a bit less than .308 capabilities by using HICAR supers? Or am I completely off base? How about your supersonic 110 gr and then a 300gr subsonic? Make the bullet longer and use less but faster burning powder (I don't reload so no idea how this works). |
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Originally Posted By bmarshall1: How about your supersonic 110 gr and then a 300gr subsonic? Make the bullet longer and use less but faster burning powder (I don't reload so no idea how this works). I have some of the NAS3 110grs, but I didn't chrono those. Andrew (from the first video) chrono'd those, but it looks like YT may have pulled it. If I remember correctly, they were about 100 fps faster than the 120's from the same gun. As for 300gr 300blk, they don't exist too much as 308 projectiles, and if they did, I think the bullets would be too long. I believe Maker is the only one that offers a 300gr 308 projectile. Most all copper 300blk subs stop around 200gr in brass. I've seen a one-off here and there, but the good ones are between 188 and 200gr. Might be able to find a jacketed leaded projectile in an NAS3 case that could be 250gr, but I'm not sure how popular that would be if they didn't expand...and I'm not sure if they would hold up to the faster twist. That is the other balancing act. I have some of the 220gr Maker expanding subs that are no longer offered. They are probably better suited for 1:5 twists, which is probably why they are no longer available. Either go 188-200gr for the original 1:8 and 1:7 twists, or jump to the 242gr for a 1:5. 
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Originally Posted By EnablerNo1: I’d put my money on this. Originally Posted By EnablerNo1: Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: What you can do is hammer forge a barrel without rifling then cut gain twist rifling into it. I’d put my money on this. My God that's gonna be expensive to make... Expensive alloy and treatments, expensive forging, expensive specialty cut rifling, probably chrome lined... |
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Originally Posted By FrankW134: Any word whether Sig has submitted a Spear LT for testing? I think in one of the TFBTV vids they mentioned shooting high pressure stuff in the MCX but I haven't seen any tests. |
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Apparently Geissele HICAR, like Surefire, has a full auto rate reducing bolt:
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Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: Required spin is dependent on the bullet length and the aerodynamic properties of the bullet, higher velocities actually require less twist to achieve the required spin. Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: What would need done with the twist rate ? Required spin is dependent on the bullet length and the aerodynamic properties of the bullet, higher velocities actually require less twist to achieve the required spin. And less twist would be more permissive of higher velocity/pressure. |
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Apparently Geissele HICAR, like Surefire, has a full auto rate reducing bolt:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HR5C-9Fa4AAv_Gs?format=jpg&name=large It also has the relatively unknown Geissele Gas Pedal automatic trigger. |
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Originally Posted By NachoDip: It also has the relatively unknown Geissele Gas Pedal automatic trigger. Originally Posted By NachoDip: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Apparently Geissele HICAR, like Surefire, has a full auto rate reducing bolt:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HR5C-9Fa4AAv_Gs?format=jpg&name=large It also has the relatively unknown Geissele Gas Pedal automatic trigger. Is that one of the short throw, spring-loaded selectors that you hold down for F/A? I remember that being a thing from another manufacturer, some faggot that refused to sell said 3 position selector to us dirty "civilians" The ROF reducing carrier interests me, the AR15/M4 has been needing that for decades. Ferfrans and others came up with mechanisms for that over 20 years ago, IIRC, but gov't adoption of sensible upgrades is fucking glacial. |
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Originally Posted By rb889: Is that one of the short throw, spring-loaded selectors that you hold down for F/A? I remember that being a thing from another manufacturer, some faggot that refused to sell said 3 position selector to us dirty "civilians" The ROF reducing carrier interests me, the AR15/M4 has been needing that for decades. Ferfrans and others came up with mechanisms for that over 20 years ago, IIRC, but gov't adoption of sensible upgrades is fucking glacial. Yes. In one of the G released videos you can see it being used pretty clearly as his right hand is pushing it on the right side of the receiver and you can see the left side lever spring back. It was neat to see up close in use. I want to see the internals of how it works. As for the ROD reducing carrier. Surefire has had one out for quite a while now. They were hard to get for a bit. Not sure at the moment. I’d imagine still a limited commodity. I got to shoot an M16 with one installed a couple years ago. You could easily tell a difference and it was very noticeably easier to stay on target. |
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Originally Posted By NachoDip: As for the ROD reducing carrier. Surefire has had one out for quite a while now. Yeah, have not used the G one, but the Surefire one is great. |
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HICAR - High Pressure 82kpsi M855A1+ rifle for SOCOM (Page 5 of 5)
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