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Posted: 12/7/2013 2:59:06 PM EST
In the past few months I've fired close to 1,800 rounds of Geco, American Eagle and PMC through my Stag AR .223/5.56 with 16" barrel (chrome lined if it is pertinent) with no problems whatsoever. Last month I caught some Tula steel case ammo on sale so bought 1,000 rounds.

Last week I went to the range and fired three 30rd magazines of Geco then switched to a magazine loaded with the Tula steel case and after about a dozen rounds the fun failed to eject a spent shell and I had nothing to get it out so dropped by the gun shop on the way home. They used a rod to knock the shell out and told me my gun doesn't like steel case ammo since it expands more than the brass and I would likely have this problem again with this ammo.

So...... NOT TO START A DEBATE on whether steel case is good or not, I'm convinced that I don't want to use it anymore in MY gun so I have a question......

Still wanting to save a few dollars, I noticed that Wolf, another foreign ammo manufacturer is offering their ammo in both steel and their "Gold" line in brass, may I assume that this brass ammo would be just as fine in my gun since brass is brass (or is it all the same?) and the "Gold" line of brass ammo should expand similar to the Geco, PMC, etc?

Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:23:23 PM EST
1. Your gun shop guy is wrong about steel.
2. Wolf Gold should run just fine as long as your gun isn't dialed way down on gas.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:24:09 PM EST
MAC on youtube has a good review on it. Typically when companies offer different style of casings they will be manufactured by some other company but stamped with the other guys logo... to my understanding Wolf is fulfilling a Mil contract to some country in the Philippians or something and they opened up another plant to specialize in brass casings for this contract, while they were at it they also decided to sell to the US market. I haven't used it yet but my non-expert opinion predicts this is a good inexpensive round that can be comparable to other brass products, so shoot up!!
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 5:22:17 PM EST
I had the same problem u are having but I started spraying
the ammo down with some rem oil (just a little)
took care of the the problem for me.. hope this helps
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 5:44:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 5:44:58 PM EST by MattR]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sittingbull:
I had the same problem u are having but I started spraying
the ammo down with some rem oil (just a little)
took care of the the problem for me.. hope this helps
View Quote


This is bad info
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 5:47:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 5:47:40 PM EST by RDTCU]
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Originally Posted By MattR:


This is bad info
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Originally Posted By MattR:
Originally Posted By sittingbull:
I had the same problem u are having but I started spraying
the ammo down with some rem oil (just a little)
took care of the the problem for me.. hope this helps


This is bad info


Yay bolt thrust.
It might not blow up your gun, but it will put more stress on things like bolt lugs.

Don't lube your rifle ammo.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 6:08:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By showlow:
In the past few months I've fired close to 1,800 rounds of Geco, American Eagle and PMC through my Stag AR .223/5.56 with 16" barrel (chrome lined if it is pertinent) with no problems whatsoever. Last month I caught some Tula steel case ammo on sale so bought 1,000 rounds.

Last week I went to the range and fired three 30rd magazines of Geco then switched to a magazine loaded with the Tula steel case and after about a dozen rounds the fun failed to eject a spent shell and I had nothing to get it out so dropped by the gun shop on the way home. They used a rod to knock the shell out and told me my gun doesn't like steel case ammo since it expands more than the brass and I would likely have this problem again with this ammo.

So...... NOT TO START A DEBATE on whether steel case is good or not, I'm convinced that I don't want to use it anymore in MY gun so I have a question......

Still wanting to save a few dollars, I noticed that Wolf, another foreign ammo manufacturer is offering their ammo in both steel and their "Gold" line in brass, may I assume that this brass ammo would be just as fine in my gun since brass is brass (or is it all the same?) and the "Gold" line of brass ammo should expand similar to the Geco, PMC, etc?

View Quote



Since no one else can read.

Yes their gold line is brass cased and will act like other brass cased ammo of the same weight and velocity.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 6:11:45 PM EST
Small amount of irony in that post right there...
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 6:12:41 PM EST
Not sure if it all still is, but their Gold line used to be made by Prvi Partizan. Good stuff.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 6:23:28 PM EST
I will try to answer all questions.
1. Wolf Gold is gtg. It was made by Prvi, it is now made in Taiwan. Good Stuff.
2. Steel case expands less, and as a result it can build up carbon in the chamber. This can result it stuck cases. Try cleaning the hell out of your chamber and then try the tula again. It may work. If you don't own a chamber brush, now is the time to buy one.
3. Don't oil your rifle cartridges.
4. Buy a good rifle cleaning rod in aluminim or brass - you can use it to remove a stuck case if necessary.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:22:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By smash05:
I will try to answer all questions.
1. Wolf Gold is gtg. It was made by Prvi, it is now made in Taiwan. Good Stuff.
2. Steel case expands less, and as a result it can build up carbon in the chamber. This can result it stuck cases. Try cleaning the hell out of your chamber and then try the tula again. It may work. If you don't own a chamber brush, now is the time to buy one.
3. Don't oil your rifle cartridges.
4. Buy a good rifle cleaning rod in aluminim or brass - you can use it to remove a stuck case if necessary.
View Quote


Thanks, a couple good replies above, just what I was looking for!

So I will have a better understanding...... As stated, lots of brass ammo fired and on this outing 90 rounds of brass cased ammo was fired without incident then I popped in a 30 rd magazine of Tula and round 16 is the one that fired but didn't eject.

Would the previous 15 Tula rounds leave enough residue and buildup to cause the jam so quickly?

Looks like a brass cleaning rod (ram rod) and chamber brush is in my future!

After cleaning I will try the ammo again, now that I know how to dislodge a jammed spent casing, after all, I would hate to toss 984 rounds even if it was cheap!

Link Posted: 12/8/2013 9:47:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By showlow:


Thanks, a couple good replies above, just what I was looking for!

So I will have a better understanding...... As stated, lots of brass ammo fired and on this outing 90 rounds of brass cased ammo was fired without incident then I popped in a 30 rd magazine of Tula and round 16 is the one that fired but didn't eject.

Would the previous 15 Tula rounds leave enough residue and buildup to cause the jam so quickly?

Looks like a brass cleaning rod (ram rod) and chamber brush is in my future!

After cleaning I will try the ammo again, now that I know how to dislodge a jammed spent casing, after all, I would hate to toss 984 rounds even if it was cheap!

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By showlow:
Originally Posted By smash05:
I will try to answer all questions.
1. Wolf Gold is gtg. It was made by Prvi, it is now made in Taiwan. Good Stuff.
2. Steel case expands less, and as a result it can build up carbon in the chamber. This can result it stuck cases. Try cleaning the hell out of your chamber and then try the tula again. It may work. If you don't own a chamber brush, now is the time to buy one.
3. Don't oil your rifle cartridges.
4. Buy a good rifle cleaning rod in aluminim or brass - you can use it to remove a stuck case if necessary.


Thanks, a couple good replies above, just what I was looking for!

So I will have a better understanding...... As stated, lots of brass ammo fired and on this outing 90 rounds of brass cased ammo was fired without incident then I popped in a 30 rd magazine of Tula and round 16 is the one that fired but didn't eject.

Would the previous 15 Tula rounds leave enough residue and buildup to cause the jam so quickly?

Looks like a brass cleaning rod (ram rod) and chamber brush is in my future!

After cleaning I will try the ammo again, now that I know how to dislodge a jammed spent casing, after all, I would hate to toss 984 rounds even if it was cheap!



I have only had brass cases stick but each time they were reloads being fired after shooting some Silver Bear steel case. To be fair, the problem was pretty intermittent. I had maybe 2 or 3 rounds stick out of 500 rounds of Silver Bear shot. I shot through the 500 over the course of several months, so it's hard to see a pattern in terms of how many rounds it took to get one to stick, but I don't recall ever shooting more than 50 rounds of the steel at any one range session. So I suspect it that it could happen pretty quickly since I would have shot less than 2 full magazines of Silver Bear prior to each failure.

My thinking is that the SB fouled the chamber, then the reloaded brass would expand enough to glue itself to the chamber thanks to the layer of crud, and it being reloaded, it maybe didn't have the same shrinkage potential that new brass ammo would have had. So in fairness it was more of a bad combination of ammo rather than being bad steel case, if you see my point.

Since you were mixing ammo, it isn't like it was a sparkling clean chamber when you switched to the the steel case. The gun was already dirty to some extent anyway. So the steel case just added to the crud at a quicker rate.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 1:25:51 PM EST
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 2:02:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.
View Quote


RIF
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 2:21:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.
View Quote

Um, no. That polymer is rated too high a temperature to melt. Further the Wolf he's talking about is brass.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 2:31:43 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JamesTheScot:
I have only had brass cases stick but each time they were reloads being fired after shooting some Silver Bear steel case. To be fair, the problem was pretty intermittent. I had maybe 2 or 3 rounds stick out of 500 rounds of Silver Bear shot. I shot through the 500 over the course of several months, so it's hard to see a pattern in terms of how many rounds it took to get one to stick, but I don't recall ever shooting more than 50 rounds of the steel at any one range session. So I suspect it that it could happen pretty quickly since I would have shot less than 2 full magazines of Silver Bear prior to each failure.

My thinking is that the SB fouled the chamber, then the reloaded brass would expand enough to glue itself to the chamber thanks to the layer of crud, and it being reloaded, it maybe didn't have the same shrinkage potential that new brass ammo would have had. So in fairness it was more of a bad combination of ammo rather than being bad steel case, if you see my point.

Since you were mixing ammo, it isn't like it was a sparkling clean chamber when you switched to the the steel case. The gun was already dirty to some extent anyway. So the steel case just added to the crud at a quicker rate.
View Quote


Huh, I've got a couple thousand rounds of SB through one stainless-barreled SBR, and I shoot brass out of it as well, never had a single failure of any kind in that gun.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 5:13:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By smash05:
I will try to answer all questions.
1. Wolf Gold is gtg. It was made by Prvi, it is now made in Taiwan. Good Stuff.
2. Steel case expands less, and as a result it can build up carbon in the chamber. This can result it stuck cases. Try cleaning the hell out of your chamber and then try the tula again. It may work. If you don't own a chamber brush, now is the time to buy one.
3. Don't oil your rifle cartridges.
4. Buy a good rifle cleaning rod in aluminim or brass - you can use it to remove a stuck case if necessary.
View Quote



This should be mandatory reading for all noobs/13'ers ........
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 6:02:57 PM EST
Steel ammo FAQ. People should have to pass a quiz on this before being allowed to post in the ammo forum.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 6:10:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sittingbull:
I had the same problem u are having but I started spraying
the ammo down with some rem oil (just a little)
took care of the the problem for me.. hope this helps
View Quote



Do not do this.

Do not ever do this.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 6:13:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.
View Quote



No. This does not happen.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 6:51:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By felrom:
Steel ammo FAQ. People should have to pass a quiz on this before being allowed to post in the ammo forum.
View Quote


Just think, if people stop posting their questions you would be out in the cold with no threads to make your smart ass comments in so actually we're helping you keep your post count up!

Is this a discussion forum or a library with nothing more than a LONG list of FAQ's?
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 10:11:05 AM EST
Get a shotgun barrel swab or a brush with cloth over it that fits in the chamber. Cover with Flitz metal polish and run it in the chamber a bit. That has always worked for me. Tulammo runs great after I did this.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 10:33:54 AM EST
One thing you should look for in your ammo is does the surface of the steel case ammo have what looks like a fine white dust? If it does, that is your problem. I brought a bunch of Wolf WPA steel case last year and it had this stuff on it. It is suppose to be a lubricant but at least in my AR, it acts exactly the opposite and I was having big problem with extraction etc. The solution was to tumble the live rounds with corn cob media – 5 min will do it. Once the stuff was off, it ran just fine as I now have 2K down range with the same ammo without a single jam. If you are afraid of tumbling live ammo, you can wipe the stuff off with a paper towel soaked with acetone – your choice.

Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:28:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:



No. This does not happen.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.



No. This does not happen.



Why does it happen in handguns but not in an AR?
Why don't the Wolf cases stick on a cold gun? I've NEVER had a steel case get stuck on a cold barrel. Hot Barrel-many times.
Why have I noticed that despite internet "Opinion" to the contrary, Steel cases ammo is generally cleaner than many brass cased brass ammo? (My opinion formed from cleaning 14 handguns, 3 rifles and well over 20,000 rounds). The Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear stuff always results in a cleaner gun for me.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:42:03 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
The Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear stuff always results in a cleaner gun for me.
View Quote


Then you must be shooting some really dirty brass stuff...
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:57:09 AM EST
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Originally Posted By RDTCU:


Then you must be shooting some really dirty brass stuff...
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Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
The Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear stuff always results in a cleaner gun for me.


Then you must be shooting some really dirty brass stuff...



the cheapest crap money can buy.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:58:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2013 4:00:10 AM EST by RDTCU]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:



the cheapest crap money can buy.
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Originally Posted By scottzilla:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
The Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear stuff always results in a cleaner gun for me.


Then you must be shooting some really dirty brass stuff...



the cheapest crap money can buy.


And that's why it's dirtier than Wolf...

I, for one, have never had a stuck case in anything, ever, and I shoot a lot of steel case, and I get my guns hot...

(The one exception is when my dad dropped a Rem 7400 mag in the mud and didn't clean it off very well before loading, that round took a cleaning rod to get out...)
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 11:24:01 AM EST
Still wanting to save a few dollars, I noticed that Wolf, another foreign ammo manufacturer is offering their ammo in both steel and their "Gold" line in brass, may I assume that this brass ammo would be just as fine in my gun since brass is brass (or is it all the same?) and the "Gold" line of brass ammo should expand similar to the Geco, PMC, etc?
View Quote


Firstly, the steel case stuck because it expands *less* than brass. Hot gas and debris blows around the outside of the case and cruds up the chamber.

Wolf Gold appears to be nice ammo. It is made in Taiwan under contract and is loaded relatively hot. Chrono data posted on this site showed velocities for 55gr bullets around 3200 fps, with a 10 shot SD of 19 fps, which is pretty good so the ammo should be reasonably accurate. And its cheap.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 11:24:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
One thing you should look for in your ammo is does the surface of the steel case ammo have what looks like a fine white dust?
View Quote


That is corrosion.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 1:34:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 1:35:34 PM EST by scuba_steve]
I bought a 1000 rd case of Wolf Gold a couple of weeks ago and took some to the range today. Everything in this video was dead on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z7GB6RD4kI

No issues at all...and tight groups. I may pick up another case or two if I can find that price again.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:49:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scottzilla:
If Wolf's .223 cases are poly coated like their handgun cases, there's your problem. It's not metal expanding or other magical crap happening. It's the polymer coating sticking to a hot chamber.
The op can sell it or use it first, when the gun is cold. Once it warms up, switch to brass. Problem solved.
View Quote
the poly coating just like the lacquer coating does not melt and stick to the chamber,this is a myth that has been repeated for many years.

steel cases do not expand as much as a brass case and can allow more fouling in the chamber,firing a bunch of steel case ammo and switching to brass has been known to cause extraction issues.

OP your rifle should run on steel case ammo or it has issues that need to be addressed


Link Posted: 12/15/2013 4:51:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2013 4:53:17 AM EST by Caeser2001]
Originally Posted By showlow:
In the past few months I've fired close to 1,800 rounds of Geco, American Eagle and PMC through my Stag AR .223/5.56 with 16" barrel (chrome lined if it is pertinent) with no problems whatsoever. Last month I caught some Tula steel case ammo on sale so bought 1,000 rounds.

Last week I went to the range and fired three 30rd magazines of Geco then switched to a magazine loaded with the Tula steel case and after about a dozen rounds the fun failed to eject a spent shell and I had nothing to get it out so dropped by the gun shop on the way home. They used a rod to knock the shell out and told me my gun doesn't like steel case ammo since it expands more than the brass and I would likely have this problem again with this ammo.

So...... NOT TO START A DEBATE on whether steel case is good or not, I'm convinced that I don't want to use it anymore in MY gun so I have a question......

Still wanting to save a few dollars, I noticed that Wolf, another foreign ammo manufacturer is offering their ammo in both steel and their "Gold" line in brass, may I assume that this brass ammo would be just as fine in my gun since brass is brass (or is it all the same?) and the "Gold" line of brass ammo should expand similar to the Geco, PMC, etc?

View Quote


I'd open up your bolt and see if your stag came with the correct carbine extractor spring and not the rifle extractor spring, OR try replacing it with one of these and try that Tula again. Does your gunshop have a chamber reamer? What buffer are you running? Maybe try an H buffer.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 10:54:45 AM EST
Wolf's gold match .223 75gr is PPU/Privi. Great stuff. If the normal wolf gold is still PPU, it's also great stuff.

With some work you can get the 75gr match down to ~$0.42/rd right now through Sportsman's Guide if you are club member. 5% off through fatwallet, promotion for $50 gift card (not coupon, can be used as cash later) with $150+ orders.

Ordered in groups of 280/rds it works out to ~$0.62/rd up front and $0.42/rd after cashback/giftcards. You can use the promo up to 3 times.

I'm glad there is a limit because I would have bought a ton of the stuff.
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