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Posted: 5/16/2005 5:37:46 AM EDT
I live in Switzerland and shoot my SIG550AR with GP90 ammo only. This is really the only ammo we have available, its relatively inexpensive since its subsidised by the state for us shooters. Can anyone give ma an idea of what the terminal ballistics are like ? I have read on this site that they are "Horrible" but what exactly does that mean ?
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 6:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 6:24:39 AM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
Greetings Fondue!

I have slightly more than 2000 rounds of your GP90 ammunition. It is the MOST ACCURATE made .223/5.56mm ammunition in the WORLD. I use it exclusively in High Power competition. At 300 yards, it groups 1.0" consistently (2.54cm at 274 meters). The cases are extremely uniform in weight and length: fantastic for reloading. Thun makes some of the best ammunition in the world.

You Swiss have a great history of building very accurate military rifles and marksmanship.

I would not worry about terminal ballistics. If you put a .22 hole in an invader’s skull at 500 meters, the terminal ballistics do not matter.

Over here in the 'land of the free', we are NOT allowed to own a SIG550AR. (Personally, I believe that the Sturmgewehre 90 is one of the best rifles in use today.) Apparently, our Federal government does not trust its SOVEREIGN citizens to own such firearms, though the government buys and uses whatever it desires. Consider yourself fortunate to live in a country that actively promotes true homeland defense.

I own six K-31 rifles. All shoot minute of angle or less with GP11 ammunition and my own loads.

I thank you and your government for the rare opportunity to own your country's firearms and ammunition.

Below are links to great Swiss firearm sites:

SwissRifles.com

The SIG550AR (Sturmgewehre 90)

GP90 Ammunition

RUAG: the company that produces Swiss ammunition
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 6:32:46 AM EDT
Many thanks fire medic. You must come over and visit some time. Lets just hope that we Swiss can maintain the right to own our assault rifles for ever. All of our outdoor ranges are 300meters and I have the pleasure of living very close to one. I also shoot the SIG57 with the larger 7.5 X 55 Swiss. Lots of the older guys still shoot the Schmit Rubins and they can do wonders with them. We are not however allowed to use scopes and must rely on the standard rifle sights. I also own a SIG 552 Commando and was recently surprised to see how accurate this shorty is at the same range.

I enjoy visiting your country about twice a year.

Best to you
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:13:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 7:18:59 AM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
I visited your country for three weeks in the summer of 1983 or '84. Zurich is a beautiful city. The sights along the lake, on a warm summer day, deserved a second look...sometimes three or four. Fortunately for me, my lady was at work.

Scopes are not allowed in High Power competition here. We shoot at 200, 300, and 600 yards. The AR15 replaced the M1A/M14. I still prefer the M1 Garand and M1A. A shooter cannot make mistakes shooting one of these rifles. The AR15 is not demanding.

The 7.5x55 Swiss round is an excellent round: inherently accurate, more so than the .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO).

The standard sights on the K-31 are excellent. Once adjusted, they hold a zero all day long.

Within reason, barrel length does not determine accuracy. I would never doubt that the SIG552 would ever be less accurate than the SIG550.

Maintaining your country’s independence will become increasingly difficult in the years to come. Continued military firearm ownership and marksmanship will help ensure independence. The United Nations is leading the way for worldwide citizen disarming, and our (United States) Democrats and liberal and moderate Republicans are in FULL support. The BEST ways for Switzerland to stay independent is to get out of the United Nations, stay out of N.A.T.O., and stay out of the European Union.

If I can find a way, I want to compete in a Swiss 1000 meter match with my single shot .50 BMG. Shooting from one Alp to another must be an experience!

My Swiss K-31 Rifles
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 8:10:03 AM EDT
Yes I know what you mean about the UN, and EU etc. More and more the voices against firearms are making themselves heard over here. All we need is some crazy individual to loose his screws and and they all go "See what we told ya" !
Anyaway for now we shoot on. Have you ever seen one of your Swiss rifles with the special stock for right handers using the left eye ? One of my shooting buddies has one which I would be happy to take a picture of for you. Its a pretty strange looking thing but he just loves it. You can also fit various types of front and rear sights. I have a sepcial one for my SIG57.
This year we will have a Federal shooting event with aproximately 70,000 participants but I don't know of any for the .50BMG.
I am just thinking of getting myself the Unique Alpine TPG1 Sniper rifle IN .223. Do you know this rifle ?www.unique-alpine.com
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:19:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:36:39 AM EDT
Actually I do visit Dallas from time to time but I'm not sure your customs dept. would approve of the SIG stock parts you would like. Heck, they even took away the choclates I braught last time !!
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:46:56 AM EDT
I may have missed it in the thread(and if I did I am sorry) but can anyone post a link or give me the web address of a place I can buy this gp90 .223 ammo? heavy.gif
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:53:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 11:52:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 11:54:16 AM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
I do not know of the Unique Alpine TPG1 Sniper rifle. If you can get one, buy it. Email me photos of the special K-31 stock.

I'd love to have a ZfK55 Sniper Rifle, but the price over here is in excess of $3500!!!

I wish that I could buy GP90 and GP11 bullets (projectiles) to reload. These are fine bullets.

If Ammoman ever get more GP90 loaded ammo, I'm buying as much as I can afford.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 8:04:43 AM EDT
I emailed ammoman and asked about the gp90 and all he could say is to check gunbroker.So I did.Nothing.Just gotta wait I guess.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:24:09 AM EDT
"Note: Neither Dr. Tatjana nor Dr. Brouhaha are Doctors of anything, they have, however, stayed at Holiday Inn Expresses."


Now THAT is some funny shit. I don't care WHO ya are!
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:47:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 6:52:19 PM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
I forgot I had this page on my web site about Swiss GP90 ammunition. This shows its accuracy potential. Click here. The best I have ever shot is a 474/500 High Power match. I am sure that it would have printed tigher for a better shooter.

I did not have my Ohler 35 chronograph with me. This information is needed.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 8:47:35 PM EDT
Fondue,

I would be interested if you could post a picture of the stock for "cross dominant" (left eye - right hand) shooters. Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 5:21:21 AM EDT
I eventually sold the GP90 I had as I didn't need it as the Black Hills MK262 is my main defensive round... GP90 is highly accurate but ballistically useless unless you place bullet exactly where it is needed to bring quick incapacitation...

As for Switzerland, they are unique in Europe, however, they would NEVER BE ALLOWED (I focus on the word "allowed" as a control word) to shoot the way we do in the US. You will never see a civilian THREE-GUN match or a tactical course in Switzerland, nor will you see IDPA or anything like it. Their ranges are strictly controlled on what can be shot and how it can be shot... Just like his comment that he can't use a scope at his range...

Personally, as a SHOOTER, I'd take the US over Switzerland any day... The US of A, the land of the FREE... free to shoot steel plates, watermellons, moving targets and TANNERITE!!! Not many places in the world where you can do this...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:07:08 AM EDT
Hi Again,

Thanks Fireman for the pic of your group. Now That's what we Swiss really love. When you can shoot like this I guess you don't have to worry about "Terminal Ballistics" so much. You know it must be rememberd that ours is a tiny country and we have never had what could be called an offensive millitary policy. Our army which is almost entirely manned by civilians (even our air force pilots are not necessarily 100 % pro.) is structured around defence. We have "Shitty" terminal ballistics but this has a spinnoff for a defensive type army composed of 2 or three hundred thousand snipers. Today I had a chat with an older Swiss who had this to say on the subject: What happens when you keep wounding a whole lot of invading troops ? Their buddies have to keep busy looking after them that's what, and that will slow them down nice and easy so we can put our GP90 where they really need it. Well, thats one argument among many but it is perhaps not that easy for some of you guys to grasp the full nature of our "Defensive" posture. The other thing you have to remember is that we are looking after everybodies money for them here so who in their right minds would want to invade us anyway ?!!

Back to shooting then. I will be taking a photo of that K31 rifle for left eye right handers at the range tomorrow for you to have a look at. Yes we are very restrictive with what can be used to shoot in our ranges. Basicly its ONLY ASSAULT RIFLES. This is really for two reasons. 1. Our compulsory millitary shooting for the whole male population under 40 and 2. We have some really expeeeeensive electronic target systems at our 300 metre ranges. The powers that be don't want me shooting any old calibre at that stuff !

Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:18:24 AM EDT
Yes sir you are 100% right there with your comments on our range "Allowance". Believe me, as a shooter I really enjoy visiting the USA. I have a great friend in PA and I shoot with him at a cool outdoor range he says belongs to the IOOB. Thats the International Order of Old Bastards or something. I just wish we could go out and shoot at cans,bottles, mellons and whatever. Well thats life, you can't have it all. Just pray for us that our little country can keep itself out of the EU FOR EVER !!
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 12:47:26 PM EDT
By the way Fire Medic, have you ever used or seen the Ruag Match .223 ammo. This is 69gr HPBT and is the match version of GP90. Just imagine in which part of a fly's anatomy you could stick 10 of these. They pretty expensive here though and again we would not be "Allowed" to use this ammo at our official ranges since it would be considered as cheating. Never mind though, every now and again I slip in a few. They cost about 90 cents per round ! Of course this is not subsidised like the millitary GP90 which costs us about $18.00 per 50 rounds. What do you have to pay for it over there when you can get it ?

By the way I got me a brand new H&K MP5 today, made now in Switzerland under licence by who else than Brugger & Thomet. I undestand that you guys cannot get this with the standard barrel ? Can't wait to get to the US this August to buy me some of the great accessories for it. We can get it all here but not at your great prices !!ht
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 3:03:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fondue:
Of course this is not subsidised like the millitary GP90 which costs us about $18.00 per 50 rounds. What do you have to pay for it over there when you can get it ?



Wow!!! $360 for 1000 rounds... That is $0.36 a round.

It was selling in the US during the late '90's early 2000's for less than $200 per 1k. I recently sold mine for about $300 in a trade. I haven't seen any since...

Over here, we have several rounds that would be comparable in accuracy to the GP90. One of the most expensive is the Black Hills MK262 Mod1, which is the identical round used by our military special forces, spec-ops and others in need. It is only sold to us as "blemished" since one of our worst, and most embarrasing, Presidents EVER made it illegal to sell military ammo to civilians. So, we get the "rejects" which, if you have seen any, are MIGHTY FINE rejects and are very accurate, but unlike the GP90, has some of the best TERMINAL ballistics (able to kill effectively) available in a 5.56mm format. It sells for about $27.00 per 50 rounds ($540 per 1k) so it is not cheap.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:23:59 AM EDT

Personally, as a SHOOTER, I'd take the US over Switzerland any day... The US of A, the land of the FREE... free to shoot steel plates, watermellons, moving targets and TANNERITE!!! Not many places in the world where you can do this...

Rmpl



Rmpl, please do not think that I was not slamming our country. I state things of this nature to remind other shooters, firearm owners, and lovers of freedom, that our rights have, and continue to be, taken away or severely restricted. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are no longer obstacles to those who wish to force THEIR will on us. IF, IF, IF I had to pick another country to live, it would be Switzerland or New Zealand. But, currently, I have NO plans of leaving; I have a big dog in our fight here. I was born free and plan to die free. As Vermont states, "Live free or die,” and as my great native state of Texas (an independent nation reduced to statehood) had on one of her independence flags, it shows a cannon with the words underneath, "Come And Take It". I love my country, but I am growing more and more discontent with the abuses of power taken by a strong centralized government. Therefore, I take opportunities to remind everyone that while we still enjoy a large relative amount of freedom, it is restricted further and further everyday. Our firearms will be the first to go completely.

Fondue, I never knew that GP90 was loaded to match specifications. I would like to see a photo of it. As of 1986, signed under President Reagan, new manufacture of machineguns, for sales to civilians, is illegal. Thus, the only true ‘assault weapons’ we can buy are at least 19 years old. They cost a king’s ransom. Silencers, short-barreled rifles and shotguns (barrels under 16 inches), and “any other weapon” are still allowed to be manufactured for sale to civilians. The process to legally buy one is lengthy: tons of paperwork, $200 transfer tax ($5 transfer tax for “any other weapon”), and wait MONTHS. These are the federal laws. States laws can be worse; some states do NOT allow ownership whatsoever. I can only imagine what the prices would be of a new H&K MP5 over here had this dumbass law NOT been signed into existence. Before other forum members slam me, this law also allowed citizens to buy primers, powder, and loading ammunition directly, delivered to one’s home, without having to go through a licensed dealer. At the time, many considered this to be a good thing, and it was, and still is. My concern comes from the fact that firearm owners had gotten soft, again. One freedom was traded for another. Not going further into this, The Second Amendment states, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." What part of the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed do citizens NOT understand? I am done for now with my soapbox. I respect the Swiss for having the guts to prepare and arm its country’s citizens to kill invaders. We have lost that here for a plethora of reasons.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:
Rmpl, please do not think that I was not slamming our country. I state things of this nature to remind other shooters, firearm owners, and lovers of freedom, that our rights have, and continue to be, taken away or severely restricted. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are no longer obstacles to those who wish to force THEIR will on us. <snip>

Fondue, I never knew that GP90 was loaded to match specifications. I would like to see a photo of it.



Your patriotism or love of country was never questioned or intended. If we could combine Switzerland and USA together, we would have a great thing...

Our government broke from its Consitutional shackles LONG AGO and in no way resembles what our founding fathers envisioned... The line was crossed long ago, the people have just chosen that it doesn't matter to them... for they are comfortable, pampered and profoundly DISTRACTED...

I stay in the USA because there is no place left to go so I am a badger cornered...

Here is some pics of the GP90...

Rmpl







Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:55:40 AM EDT
Rmpl, no worries. I am with you: where else can we go?...No where.

I have GP90 ammo with cupronickel and copper bullets. I read that the Swiss changed from cupronickel to copper bullets to slow barrel wear. Both shoot well.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:59:26 PM EDT
Yup, the nickel stuff is done. Only see the copper these days. Sorry my friend did not show up at the range today with his hybrid K31. I took a few pics at the range but I am not sure of how to go about getting them on this message. I could e-mail them to someone ?hinking.gif
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:16:34 PM EDT
Well I agree with you 100% you know we have people over here who object to little kids playing with toy guns ! Maybe the problem is that people have had it so good for so long that they now have no respect for those who contributed so much to their freedom ! Never mind my freinds, we have a saying in French (Swiss French that is) "The world is round so you just can't shit in the corners" The wheel will turn again and people will recognise that self defence is nothing more than common sense.!!
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 2:09:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 2:10:37 PM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
Email sent about the photos.

Do you ever get the opportunity to shoot your firearms on full automatic?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 10:22:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Terminal Ballistics on it are atrocious.

I think I'd prefer to use Wolf over GP90.

We have a member here that has had to use GP90 and it almost cost him his life.



That was me.

It's coincidental that this would be mentioned as the matter happened some years ago and was finally closed (and I can therefore discuss it) earlier this year.

I had TWO, count them TWO failures to stop involving three armed aggressors in the same incident. In the more grievous of the incidents five shots of GP90 were fired from a 360mm (16") Sig551 at a range of between 20 and 15 meters. The exact order of the rounds isn't clear but was believe to be:

At 20 meters: A controlled pair with the first round striking the upper left chest, passing through the left lung and exiting the back below the left shoulder blade passing within 2cm of the Pulmonary artery and within 4 of the Aorta. Second round struck approximately 6cm above and to the right of the first passing through non-vital soft tissue and exiting the back of the left shoulder. After these shots the aggressor began to return fire (quite accurately, I might add. But then I am told incoming fire always seems more accurate than outgoing fire).

At something between 20 and 15 meters: I squeezed off a perfect miss.

At around 15 meters: A (somewhat less) controlled pair with the first round striking first the left forearm, passing through that to enter the left upper pectoral and passing through the lung to exit the left shoulder. The report speculates that this round deflected slightly up after the forearm encounter. (I think someone was just being generous to me here, it wasn't the best shot). The second round struck the left cheek just below the eye and exited in front of the left ear (breaking the cheekbone and punching out some teeth, but otherwise superficial).

The shoulder blade was punched through but, alarmingly after two solid and one slight hit, not broken. Neither were any bones in the left arm.

After what I consider to be 2 CoM hits and one near CoM hit along with what should have been a very distracting facial wound, the aggressor showed no signs of distress and happily expended 18 rounds of rather accurate fire in my general direction. I ended up with some ricochet glass in my face. That aggressor was finally felled with 9mm handgun fire from someone else (I can't remember which loading but will check) while reloading under cover. He sustained 8 wounds in total. I asked about any yaw in any of the rounds, but was never answered.

One of the other aggressors had 13 GP90 wounds (including at least one I consider CoM) but crawled from the field of fire and expended his remaining 15 or so rounds of ammunition from cover before expiring several minutes later. (We only knew because he stopped swearing after 10 minutes).

Zip on the toxicology except small ("non-significant" in the words of the report) levels of alcohol.

I have little doubt that had I even been using M193 the wound cavity from my first controlled pair would have hit the Pulmonary artery and perhaps the Aorta and ended the fight much quicker.

Draw your own conclusions.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 10:28:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fondue:

We have "Shitty" terminal ballistics but this has a spinnoff for a defensive type army composed of 2 or three hundred thousand snipers. Today I had a chat with an older Swiss who had this to say on the subject: What happens when you keep wounding a whole lot of invading troops ? Their buddies have to keep busy looking after them that's what, and that will slow them down nice and easy so we can put our GP90 where they really need it. Well, thats one argument among many but it is perhaps not that easy for some of you guys to grasp the full nature of our "Defensive" posture.



The reality is that the Swiss, along with many other Europeans who live in often cold places, have a strong aversion to any wounding. GP90 is so dumbed down because of the silly belief that you can make rounds that take people out of the fight without killing them. This is why the constant fascination with amount of energy released in a given timeframe, and limiting this figure because it is "inhumane." It has NOTHING to do with military policy. It has NOTHING to do with a "shoot to wound" doctrine (which is NOT followed by the Swiss Army) all that is just noise to cover the very political leanings that prevent about any German speaking nation from doing research on how to make deadlier (insert plural noun here).

The result is incidents like I outline above.

Link Posted: 5/20/2005 5:23:17 AM EDT
That event goes to show how real engagements are bloody and violent... especially if you have inferior ammo or weapons...

I think I'm going to go out and buy more MK262 and XM193...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 11:31:46 AM EDT
Thanks for your input everyone. I certailly hope never to have to shoot at anything more than dumb targets for sport but after reading your stuff I guess I will keep the MP5 full of that 9mm just in case. Lucky for us, gun crime is a relatively rare occurence over here. My father in law was a cop here for 35 years and never once had a firefight of any kind. Saddly what our assault weapons get used for other than sport shooting is suicide.

By the way is the GP11 also as bad as GP90 in the TB dept. ?
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 11:42:56 AM EDT
The ammo was obviously not right for the job but I would be very surprised if the Austrian feels that a Sig 551 is an inferior weapon
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 11:55:21 AM EDT
Well we do have a saying that" We like to send the bandage with the bullet". Thanks Austrian for sharing that experience with me. I shall pass it on to my palls. Actually I am from the French speaking part of Switzerland, aproximately a third of the population here.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:59:29 AM EDT
Tag...

I would like to talk with our Swiss friend, but I have to goto sleep...

I will check back later.
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