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Here are two more charging handles. The one in the receiver has almost no dye left on it (there is one spot of black inside the "U" channel) and the other one is a re-weld so I'm not sure what is original. (I sent pictures to the seller and he confirmed the marks were the same as his but he did not realize it was a re-weld with a coat of paint over it!) The receiver is another "round forge" one like my complete bronze rifle, no blisters or other forging flaws and under incandescent light has a clear purple tint in the remaining black dye.   ETA: I stopped by East County Guns and there was another GM upper, grip, and stock there. Grip was fat with pointed transitions, "+" and "4" inside by the screw hole, stock was a "D" with roll pin, a "C" on the receiver end, and no straw that I could see. Upper had same features as MRM1A1's and Veltro's, right hand guard had horizontal texture, left hand guard had no noticeable texture, I didn't ask to remove the hand guards, front swivel held with a roll pin, charging handle stayed with the rifle. I saw pictures of a complete rifle, buffer tube had gray ring, trigger guard and mag release button looked black, lower receiver looked black, charging handle looked black and had rough lower edge but I couldn't see if it had the other tool marks, all parked pieces were gray. (These were probably the same pictures 46wl mentioned in another post) The anodizing on the upper was going through to gold, the charging handle looked like it was too but the lower wasn't showing any gold. |
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Originally Posted By somebob:
Here are two more charging handles. The one in the receiver has almost no dye left on it (there is one spot of black inside the "U" channel) and the other one is a re-weld so I'm not sure what is original. (I sent pictures to the seller and he confirmed the marks were the same as his but he did not realize it was a re-weld with a coat of paint over it!) The receiver is another "round forge" one like my complete bronze rifle, no blisters or other forging flaws and under incandescent light has a clear purple tint in the remaining black dye. <a href="http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/somebob/media/bronze/IMG_3467.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/bronze/IMG_3467.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/somebob/media/bronze/IMG_3469.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/bronze/IMG_3469.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/somebob/media/bronze/IMG_3471.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/bronze/IMG_3471.jpg</a> Schweet Bob! I like the gold one. The 'reweld' is interesting, never seen that before.... And dude, that upper is PURPLE as hell. 
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Here are two more charging handles with the row of dots along the back and the flat spot on the right side. The top one looks like possibly original finish smooth black anodizing with good adhesion that wears through gold. At some point it was painted black, the black paint has texture in it and has worn away in the typical spots. I tried to strip it but it has adhered very well to the anodizing. Middle gold one looks like another one that was originally black but the dye didn't stick well, bottom one is the light gold charging handle from my last post to this thread. Top charging handle on left, middle charging handle on right.  ETA: Here is another thread where we measure dots, I'll try get measurements on all the ones I know about in the next few weeks. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/615743_gm_hydramatic.html Here is the double row charging handle, my eyes aren't as good as they used to be. I stuck the tip(s) of the calipers in the holes and measured to the edge. For the flat spot on the side I tried measuring with the interior jaws but my eyeball-it measurement was about the same. I'll add these to the tacked thread later. Distance from lower edge of CH to center of top row of dots is ~.291" ETA: Distance from the lower edge of CH to center of top row of dots is ~.291" on the 1st charging handle I measured. (I forgot to mention it was a the "other" charging handle) It looks like there are some variations in the distances, I didn't bother to measure them all, I'll do that before I add this to the tacked thread.         |
This is a Hydra-Matic rifle before it was upgraded, I got permission from the photographer to post these pictures. I did not see the rifle in person, the photos are unedited.    Another GM rifle was spotted in the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody WY. I contacted the OP and these are the only pictures he had, if anyone visits that museum maybe you could check for some of the details we've pointed out in this thread. The grip looks to be the same as what came with MRM1A1's and the other partial kits. Original post: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/618146_Retro_at_the_Buffalo_Bill_Museum_in_Cody_WY.html Photos courtesy of NY-EMT   |
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I don't think we've talked about bolt catches much, here is one that I just found in a pre-ban lower that had a "H" cast in it. I remember a discussion about "H" bolt catches before but I don't recall the context. ETA: Here is an existing thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/577116_.html ETA: More information about the "H" marked bolt catches a little later in this thread     Two are for projects of mine I am dragging my feet on, the third is going to a friend.  ETA: Here's the "back" side 
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I've been told this is an H&R but what is odd is if you look just forward where the gas tube goes in there are two notches one on each side just about even with the tube. I haven't seen any others like it and it looks factory done as I don't think this has been refinished.
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Originally Posted By accurange:
were GM takedown pins dimpled? or were both dimpled and non dimpled takedown pins used ????? I've seen examples where both styles were used or even a combination of dimpled and non-dimpled were used. I believe most were assembled with whatever components were available at the time. I personally prefer the dimpled look and have built numerous rifles (including my H&R) using that style of pin. |
State of Nebraska Constitution "...the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied.
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Member DBL-TAPER took these photos at the Cody museum in Wyoming. Some interesting details are: Numbered forward assist No flat spot on right side of charging handle but it could have been polished off Various shades of parkerizing Non dimpled pins "Very round" upper receiver forging with arrow that is open on the top Barrel markings and FSB marking like others Roll pin holding front sling swivel Numbers on sight wheel are stylized like the other GM uppers It is difficult to see the grip but I think it has the pointy transitions to the legacy sling swivel hole He coldn't get pictures of the back side of the charging handle and carry handle, maybe someone with a tilt LCD digital camera can try. Why didn't they try to polish the slip ring??? :)        Which one of us is going to make a replica of this? ETA: I left out a pic, no texture in the hand guards as seen in some of the other complete uppers we have come across.  |
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Thanks for the information, and pictures in this thread. It has been a great help getting all the right parts for a GM build. I managed to pickup this nice GM upper off the EE, and then lucked into a nice set of handguards also from the EE.
But I have been struggling to find a correct charging handle to go with the upper, were there any confirmed GM charging handles that didnt have the row of dots? Here is the upper. 
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NRA Life Member / Tennessee Squire
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This thread has been very informative on a couple retro uppers I have for identification but I have one that I still cannot identify.
It looks like a GM but it has no forging flash marks on the front or back of the carry handle and only around the inside of the carry handle. Maybe they were sanded away by someone since I do not think it is anodizes but painted as you can see in one pic the paint is chipping off. Any ideas?  </a>" />
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Originally Posted By AR-Willy:
This thread has been very informative on a couple retro uppers I have for identification but I have one that I still cannot identify. It looks like a GM but it has no forging flash marks on the front or back of the carry handle and only around the inside of the carry handle. Maybe they were sanded away by someone since I do not think it is anodizes but painted as you can see in one pic the paint is chipping off. Any ideas? None of those parts seem to be GM, looks like an early 603/late xm16e1. |
NRA Life Member / Tennessee Squire
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That one has a lot of texture in it and I'm guessing it is an arsenal refinished Colt upper receiver from about 1970. I'm guessing it is very unlikely that anyone would have removed the forging flash, and the tool marks that are still visible look the same as a Colt receiver.
Originally Posted By AR-Willy:
This thread has been very informative on a couple retro uppers I have for identification but I have one that I still cannot identify. It looks like a GM but it has no forging flash marks on the front or back of the carry handle and only around the inside of the carry handle. Maybe they were sanded away by someone since I do not think it is anodizes but painted as you can see in one pic the paint is chipping off. Any ideas? Originally Posted By AR-Willy:
This thread has been very informative on a couple retro uppers I have for identification but I have one that I still cannot identify. It looks like a GM but it has no forging flash marks on the front or back of the carry handle and only around the inside of the carry handle. Maybe they were sanded away by someone since I do not think it is anodizes but painted as you can see in one pic the paint is chipping off. Any ideas? Nice score, the charging handle looks like it has been painted, I would try some aircraft stripper on it. I have one that looks very similar and nothing seems to take the black coating off. (top one in this post) Can you post more pictures of the upper receiver?
ETA: Oh wait, is that the upper from a couple posts above this one? Originally Posted By TigerHawk:
Scored all these in one swoop! Would have been nice for the charging handle to be more silver, but at least it is correct for the upper. |
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Originally Posted By AR-Willy:
This thread has been very informative on a couple retro uppers I have for identification but I have one that I still cannot identify. It looks like a GM but it has no forging flash marks on the front or back of the carry handle and only around the inside of the carry handle. Maybe they were sanded away by someone since I do not think it is anodizes but painted as you can see in one pic the paint is chipping off. Any ideas? http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172755.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172723.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172711.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172646.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172624.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172611.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172600.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172543.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172532%201.jpg</a>" /> http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/GMWILLY/20150704_172755.jpg The finish on your upper looks like an upper I received from Sarco about 8 to 10 years ago. It appears to be an early Colt 604 with an arsenal refinish. The refinish material used reminds me of the krinkle black finish on V8 valve covers...its tough and is difficult to remove. Did it come with a barrel? If so, what are the cast markings on the bayo lug & FSB and barrel markings? Did it come with a BCG? If so, need some pics. |
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Originally Posted By TigerHawk:
Scored all these in one swoop! Would have been nice for the charging handle to be more silver, but at least it is correct for the upper. http://i1332.photobucket.com/albums/w611/barrtjb/C0467FB4-ED17-4449-9BC0-52A569C495D6_zpsen3h8fxr.jpg http://i1332.photobucket.com/albums/w611/barrtjb/269DC033-073D-4B8E-BB52-585E4782799F_zpsfhm93fv5.jpg Very nice find on the upper and charging handle. Now you have to build it. Looking forward to some pics. |
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I am so confused over this topic of H&R vs. GM Manufactured uppers and which of the two had forge flashing and which did not!!
I thought based upon what I have read that the H&R uppers had forge flashing... sometime just the front and not the back and other times the back but not the front... while others had both front and back. I always believed the GM uppers where basically finished out like the Colt uppers without forge flashing and the big way or telling GM from Colt is that Colt had acceptance stamps just forward of the ejection port door. Could someone shed further light on this topic that might help me identify the differences between the various makers. Thanks in advance for your help! Brandon |
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Some info on the lower parts markings here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/679714_HandR_FCG_Markings_.html |
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http://s268.photobucket.com/user/tom051876/library/GM%20603
GM upper I just bought. |
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Originally Posted By BROvet04:
http://s268.photobucket.com/user/tom051876/library/GM%20603 GM upper I just bought. Very nice. Thanks for sharing the pictures. |
State of Nebraska Constitution "...the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied.
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Thanks for posting. One thing worth mentioning is that is a front and rear forging flash upper receiver.
Originally Posted By BROvet04:
http://s268.photobucket.com/user/tom051876/library/GM%20603 GM upper I just bought. |
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Originally Posted By BROvet04: Is this a very rare upper? I think so, front and rear flash are the receivers we see the least of. There was a recent thread about a very nice H&R rifle up for auction on gunbroker.com. I contacted the seller and asked a few questions, no one replied. I saved one of the images and edited the levels and contrast a little bit. You can see there is front and rear forging flash on the upper receiver on that rifle.  
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I came across this upper receiver, forging flash front and rear, no Colt proof marks, rebated front lug, threads are shiny and dark. Were these uppers anodized, died, and then painted? Was the dye sprayed on?        ETA: some more pictures    
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Looks like this is a H&R barreled upper, original post is here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/684272_Possible_HandR_barreled_upper.html         Interesting sight aperature markings    What is interesting about this one is: * Front and rear forging flash. * Looks like a square forge Colt 603 upper forging. * Finish on slip ring and upper receiver are smooth and have a greenish brown tint. * Forging flash on FSB and no other forge markings. * Barrel is marked "MP" with "C" 90 degrees offset but is not indexed like a Colt barrel. ("upside down") |
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I can't say for sure, but some of the complete uppers purchased on Gunbroker that were sold as GM uppers had hand guards with a similar hollow cross and a number in that location. The crosses were not at 45 degrees like you mention. Something I have noticed with some of these hand guards is the right hand guard has a linear texture that runs lengthwise, and the left hand guard has a wavy surface like frosting on a warm cake. (I don't know how else to describe it)
Originally Posted By 37thguy:
Picked up 3 halves or a set and a half of "+" marked handguards. One has the cross at a 45º angle, with what appears to be the letter "J"? Anyone know who made these or who they were made for? http://<a href=http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg521/37thguy/Best_zpsacatmcus.jpg</a>" /> |
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I think that they are still GM handguards, despite the variance in stamping. I've seen some unusual markings and variances among H&R and GM parts as well, but the "wide plus" seems to be unique to GM. I picked up what I believe to be a H&R bolt catch, but it has a giant H on the left side. Some of these variances make me wonder whether or not H&R or GM subcontracted a lot of these pieces out at various times to meet other manufacturing needs/demands.
v/r, Jon |
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One of the numbered bolt catches I have and have posted on this thread has the large "H" cast into it. I'm not sure it has been mentioned in a thread, but I believe those are later replacement parts or came on later Colt ARs. (I know this was mentioned to me in an email conversation) I believe there is another difference in the "ramp" of the casting. Here are some poor quality comparison photos, the "H" marked part is on the right: [ img ] [ img ] [ img ] A clearer picture of a "H" marked bolt catch: I'll try to post some better pictures. ETA: Here are some clearer pictures    Originally Posted By DC9legacy: I think that they are still GM handguards, despite the variance in stamping. I've seen some unusual markings and variances among H&R and GM parts as well, but the "wide plus" seems to be unique to GM. I picked up what I believe to be a H&R bolt catch, but it has a giant H on the left side. Some of these variances make me wonder whether or not H&R or GM subcontracted a lot of these pieces out at various times to meet other manufacturing needs/demands. v/r, Jon |
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Originally Posted By 37thguy:
Picked up 3 halves or a set and a half of "+" marked handguards. One has the cross at a 45º angle, with what appears to be the letter "J"? Anyone know who made these or who they were made for? I've got three of those myself. The "+" is raised and solid and are at an angle as well. They are marked J, H and F. My other two have raised outline crosses that are not angled, and they are marked 4 and 1. |
I came across this upper recently. It was painted black, there was paint under the sight wheel so I think it was disassembled before it was painted. I have no idea if these are the original magnetic parts. This is a round forge receiver, I'd call it "very round" with forging flash on the rear of the carry handle, front flash was removed with tool marks that run side to side, no Colt proof marks, rebated front lug. I don't think I've seen one of these with this style "R" and arrow before. Finish is a dark gray that has worn through to a brown color on the carry handle. When I found this one it had black paint that was very difficult to strip. I used aircraft stripper, lacquer thinner, and a toothbrush. No wire brushes or abrasives were used so I don't think I removed anything other than the black paint. (some black paint remains) If you look at the front of the carry handle you will see a stripe down the center line where the anodizing / dye reacted with the metal along the forge line.     Below shows the receiver partially stripped. 
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A friend of mine just noticed that the FSB "<- UP" markings on the GM and H&R rifles are different than the Colt ones. Here are four I had a chance to look at, I don't have any Colt comparison pictures right now. This is the FSB on the H&R upper described earler on this page    This FSB is on a barrel found at a local show    This FSB is on the barrel of this gold tint upper. (Bottom upper in this picture, more pictures on page 1 of this thread)    This FSB is on the top GM (?) upper described in this post    I'm don't know if it means anything other than typical manufacturing variations, its interesting to see them. Does anyone have a different style on their FSB? ETA: Make edits so that the photo serving website might actually serve photos. 
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Originally Posted By Kaiserman:
I've got three of those myself. The "+" is raised and solid and are at an angle as well. They are marked J, H and F. My other two have raised outline crosses that are not angled, and they are marked 4 and 1. Originally Posted By Kaiserman:
Originally Posted By 37thguy:
Picked up 3 halves or a set and a half of "+" marked handguards. One has the cross at a 45º angle, with what appears to be the letter "J"? Anyone know who made these or who they were made for? I've got three of those myself. The "+" is raised and solid and are at an angle as well. They are marked J, H and F. My other two have raised outline crosses that are not angled, and they are marked 4 and 1. I thought the + lettered versions were HRA and the + numbered versions were GM. |
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve.
| This thread is likely the most concise and detailed information in existence on GM-HR rifles. Even with it's faults and errors, this is really all there is. I hope it somehow gets preserved until the de-facto publication, whatever that may be, is made available. |
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I don't think we've mentioned much about grips so here are some observations I have made. I've seen this style grip on a few H&R rifles that have shown up for sale recently. These two pictures are from a gunbroker auction, no seller has ever responded to a question I have asked about a select fire weapon. The description and photos don't mention markings inside the grip or many details we are interested in, but I am seeing these as having the wider spaced checkering on the grip in these two pictures. (Is that a black slip ring?)   I am seeing the same grip on this rifle that was for sale on sturmgewehr.com.   More pictures in the album: http://s82.photobucket.com/user/gmitz/profile. (The black slip ring is also interesting) Here is a picture of the A1 grips I am aware of, the one with the wider spaced checkering is 6th from the left.    Here is a close up of a GM grip middle, more spaced checkering grip on the right  The grip with the wider checkering has what I call "number in circle" mark inside next to the screw hole, 6th from left again.  In another thread I described the grips as: 1) 601, 2) skinny, 3) fat, 4) (Colt) asterisk, 5) GM, 6) number in circle, 7) big number, 8) Bushmaster (?), 9) Grip that came off a ~1985 Olympic Arms carbine. In my experience the "number in circle" grips are the least common, this might correspond to H&R rifles being the least common. (is that true?) I have seen others mention numbers on H&R grips in other threads / posts but it has been difficult to consolidate these details. Here are links to larger pictures, not sure they will work, you might have to click around on the page to view it full size or download it and view them locally. (They are 2048 pixels wide): http://i.imgur.com/jEjG4lk.jpg http://i.imgur.com/KWXcgRT.jpg http://i.imgur.com/DBdPiBG.jpg ETA: close up of what I have been calling "number in circle"  (Temporarily storing image code here while I change image hosting site...) big_number  colt_asterisk  colt_asterisk_closeup  gm_style  gm_style_closeup 
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Alright, so I've finally gotten around to somebob's request for pictures of our department GM Hydramatic Division M16A1s.
Unfortunately, I don't have a membership here so I can't post the pictures directly. The link below contains a few pictures based on my understandings of the request he made. Those of you with the ability to, feel free to post them to the thread. If I messed up and didn't get a picture you guys want, let me know and I'll try to make some more. Also, for whatever reason, my iPhone rotated some of the pictures on its own. IMG2419 to IMG2429 is the first rifle and IMG2459 to IMG2468 is the second rifle. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pxmhl7hb3k8mef2/AACu3hdCDsDluIPQOd0QdYcNa?dl=0 Somebody who had one of these weapons issued to them got water on them and didn't dry and clean them. I like being an armorer...but some days... |
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Originally Posted By Acebris: Alright, so I've finally gotten around to somebob's request for pictures of our department GM Hydramatic Division M16A1s. Unfortunately, I don't have a membership here so I can't post the pictures directly. The link below contains a few pictures based on my understandings of the request he made. Those of you with the ability to, feel free to post them to the thread. If I messed up and didn't get a picture you guys want, let me know and I'll try to make some more. Also, for whatever reason, my iPhone rotated some of the pictures on its own. IMG2419 to IMG2429 is the first rifle and IMG2459 to IMG2468 is the second rifle. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pxmhl7hb3k8mef2/AACu3hdCDsDluIPQOd0QdYcNa?dl=0 Somebody who had one of these weapons issued to them got water on them and didn't dry and clean them. I like being an armorer...but some days... Here are some copies of Acebris' dropbox images on my photobucket:              |
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I just re-discovered these pictures sent to me by someone I would describe as "a man of few words" so I don't know much about them. He states these are all from GM rifles, it looks like some are from de-milled weapons, some may have been re-finished at some point. I am quoting here: I've handled several 100s of demilled GMs and the vast majority do not have that indentation on the right side. Like the GM dimpled buffers there were very few that were dimpled, most GMs had the grind marks in the center of the flat head. Bob, sorry I don't have much time to be taking pictures. I dug through the demilled charging handle and found 22 more and only 3 have the small indentation on the right side.' I tried to confirm it was ok for me to post these online, it has been 6 months without a response so I figured it was time to find and post them here.                     While I'm here, here is another example of what might be a GM upper receiver with black finish wearing through to anodizing below. The barrel is a replacement barrel but it looks like the original slip ring is still paired with the receiver.         |
I picked up a pair of mint, stripped uppers a couple months ago. This thread pretty much confirms they are GM. The lighting of the pictures makes them look silvery gray. Really they are the same dark charcoal with purple and gold hues depending on how you look at them.
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