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Posted: 8/2/2004 1:12:00 PM EST
For all the times I've kicked myself for spending the money of a Pro. Ordnance Carbon 15 pistol, I've had 4 times the amount of positive experiences watching other people see it for the first time.

For all the loss of velocity from the short barrell, it seems to be quite the conversation piece. Most seem scared to actually pull the trigger for the first time too. But after the first pull, they always seem to want more.
Bushmaster was kind enough to rechamber it for me, being that it had some extaction problems out of the box. A good quality red dot, and the ability to hoold it like a rifle if you wrap your arm around the magazine just right will lead to 4" groups at 50 yards. And I think that's mainly from the anticipation of the cheery bomb about to go off in your hands.

I know it was mostly a waste of money in the long run. But it sure has supplied some damn fun times at the range. And, Wolf HP was almost punching holes in 1/4" steel at 25 yards yesterday. I was rather suprised.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 1:38:26 PM EST
Wonder what the actual effectiveness against S.O.T.P.(Stuff Other Than Paper), like people would be?

How far could you expect a barrel that short (exactly how short is it by the way?) to cause sufficient damage to a person?

My guess is 40-50 yards max....if that....but then again, it's just a guess.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 1:47:23 PM EST
A 9mm or .45ACP version would solve the lethality problem, if that is a concern...

Think SP89, UZI, or M-11, but AR based...
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 1:49:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 1:49:47 PM EST
With a good sling, and a good hold I would not feel undergunned in the least out to about 50yds. Using the right ammo, it would be one lethal combo. I will prob get one once the ban sunsets (hopefully).

Link Posted: 8/2/2004 2:27:22 PM EST
If they were close enough you'd just burn em' to death with the fireball coming out of the end of the muzzle.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 2:32:39 PM EST
In another month and a half, you could replace the upper and have a nicer gun.
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 12:45:33 PM EST
What kind of upper? One with handguards, you mean?
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 1:19:02 PM EST
Standard aluminum upper with handguards.
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 1:23:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 1:58:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 2:59:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"


Not everyone. Tits on a bull.



+1

-Troy



+2

-Forest
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 3:06:56 PM EST
not i said the rob
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 3:10:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

There are NO loads that will fragment at ANY range from such a short barrel, so you must use an expanding bullet (soft-point or "ballistic tip" preferably) to get anything beyond "ice pick" damage.

-Troy




Not trying to take anything out of context here because you recognize that the Balistic Tip style bullets should expand. But the Hornady Vmax should fragment down to a velocity of around 1400-1600fps, or so I have read at one time long ago in some Hornady literature. Not that I would expect the sort of explosive performance as the same bullet going 2500-3k fps at time of impact on some fleshy vermin.

An AR pistol should be able to deal enough velocity on even a 60grn bullet to get it into this velocity range.


Agreed though, AR pistols are not something that interest me in the slightest.

Would MUCH rather have a 224Boz chambered 1911 with 50grn bullets at 2100fps shooting something the Vmax but that is the diehard varminter in me.
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 3:29:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 3:42:51 PM EST
OH OH, 50 Beowolf pistol AR15....



You know that if the AW ban sunsets it will only be a matter of time, I'm just pulling a Nostradamus.
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 3:55:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By uglygun:
OH OH, 50 Beowolf pistol AR15....



You know that if the AW ban sunsets it will only be a matter of time, I'm just pulling a Nostradamus.



Thats my plan. better than a .44!
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 4:34:11 PM EST
So can we classify an AR pistoil as "Less that lethal?"
Link Posted: 8/3/2004 11:53:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/4/2004 10:22:51 PM EST
I want one just to upset the antis...

BTW, probably still more lethal than the FN Pistol shooting the AP stuff...
Link Posted: 8/4/2004 10:25:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

There are NO loads that will fragment at ANY range from such a short barrel, so you must use an expanding bullet (soft-point or "ballistic tip" preferably) to get anything beyond "ice pick" damage.

-Troy



Not true.

Frangible or "Green" ammo will, such as Longbow.

And I would imagine that the blended metal bullets would as well.
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 12:17:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 5:41:37 AM EST
i agree with the statement about getting one to make the anti's upset
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 5:56:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheFNG:

And I would imagine that the blended metal bullets would as well.



The BM is B.S. and it won't do it from a full size AR - let alone a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 5:58:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/5/2004 5:59:35 AM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 7:05:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
"That's 'Duke'".




Until Gile's had a slip of the tounge it was 'Duke'....
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 8:09:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"


Not everyone. Tits on a bull.



+1

-Troy



+2

-Forest



+ 3

I just don't get it I guess.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 9:37:15 AM EST
Well, everyone I've encountered has.
Most say they'd never buy one though.
Is that better?
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 9:43:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"


Not everyone. Tits on a bull.



+1

-Troy



+2

-Forest



+ 3

I just don't get it I guess.



+4 ....me either.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:02:17 AM EST
AS FAR AS THE KILLING AND BULLET PENETRATION GOES...WOULDN'T 30 ROUNDS COMING AT YOU STOP JUST ABOUT ANYBODY? WHO IS REALLY GONNA KEEP THE 10RD MAG?

BULLET ASIDE, THE ABILITY TO THROW 30 ROUNDS AT AN INTRUDER WILL STOP THEM. ONE OF THOSE ROUNDS WILL BE FATAL.

DON
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:28:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"


Not everyone. Tits on a bull.



+1

-Troy



+2

-Forest



+ 3

I just don't get it I guess.



+4 ....me either.



+5

I've never seen one work as well as a full size AR nor heard of anyone that "loves" them.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:33:10 AM EST
But if it's got a 1/7 twist barrel in 4150 steel, I've got to have it!
Please?
What if I make it a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel?

I've looked at the AR pistols, but I agree the 7" barrels are too short. I'd love to play with one in 10.5" though-- but then it should have a telestock on it and isn't a pistol any more. ;)
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:26:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:35:55 AM EST
I dont care how long the barrel is, supressive fire is supressive fire. Granted, I would much rather have an M4 over an AR pistol but I have seriously thought of buying a pistol upper to bring back to Iraqwith me to put on an M231 for a backup weapon. Could you imagine, an open bolt, full auto AR pistol? Was going to get one of those wire stocks from DPMS to go on it also.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:36:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By TheFNG:

And I would imagine that the blended metal bullets would as well.



The BM is B.S. and it won't do it from a full size AR - let alone a pistol.



No way, I heard that they can go through a tank and still hit a pot roast and explode it, even from a pistol. I saw it on the internet!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:39:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I dont care how long the barrel is, supressive fire is supressive fire. Granted, I would much rather have an M4 over an AR pistol but I have seriously thought of buying a pistol upper to bring back to Iraqwith me to put on an M231 for a backup weapon. Could you imagine, an open bolt, full auto AR pistol? Was going to get one of those wire stocks from DPMS to go on it also.



Where do you get open bolt AR's? Just curious.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:40:53 AM EST
Guess you dont know what an M231 is do you?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:43:31 AM EST
The M231 is a port firing weapon, based on the M16 that is open bolt, full auto...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:54:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 12:55:05 PM EST by Stove_Pipe]
Nope never heard of it.
Interesting, what is the advantage to being open bolt? Is it that it doesn't keep a round in the hot chamber? Is it used as a light SAW alternative? Just Curious.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:59:17 PM EST
the M231 is used in the ports of the Bradley they are used for defensive fire around the Bradley by the grunts in the back of it. As far as advantages, I dont know... The open bolts operate without a hammer so I think their rate of fire might be a little higher. They do shoot fast. Full auto only. They also have no butstock, just a VERY short receiver extention tube.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:06:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 1:07:07 PM EST by DM1975]
Here is a picture of it... Now that with a wire stock and a pistol upper is what I am talking about carrying in Iraq as a backup.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:14:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 1:15:51 PM EST by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Here is a picture of it... Now that with a wire stock and a pistol upper is what I am talking about carrying in Iraq as a backup.

www.thesupplybunker.net/pictures/weapons/m231.jpg


If it doesn't have a hammer, and fires from an open bolt, would you be able to drop an upper on it, and have it work?
I would think that a gooseneck, assuming that the carry handle has provisions for one, and a good scope would be a better solution.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:16:10 PM EST
Why would it be any different than the upper on it now? The upper dont house the hammer. The uppers are the same...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:16:58 PM EST
The bolt and carrier are different in it, but not so different that they wont go into a regualr M16 upper.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:16:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Why would it be any different than the upper on it now? The upper dont house the hammer. The uppers are the same...


You said there is no hammer, what would strike the firing pin on the pistol upper, if there is no hammer?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:17:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
The bolt and carrier are different in it, but not so different that they wont go into a regualr M16 upper.


OK.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:17:40 PM EST
The firing pin is fired from a plunger that rides inside the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:46:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 2:55:15 PM EST by Swordslinger]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"


Not everyone. Tits on a bull.



+6 1/2 My son agrees too. You just dont take a pistol of any kind to a rifle fight. And due to the size and bulkyness it would not be considered as an option for a secondary weapon.... for me any way. To each his own though.
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