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Posted: 11/11/2006 5:31:42 AM EST
Had this discussion with some friends... but none of them had an answer.

While hunting, I've always had a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle of my rifles. It prevents sticks, mud, snow, rain, etc. from getting in there while I'm stalking the woods.

For those of you unfamiliar... you're not taping the living hell out of it... you generally just have a four inch piece or so that merely covers the muzzle. You don't tape around the barrel to secure it.

When you pull the trigger, the column of air in front of the bullet blasts the tape off the muzzle, and the bullet exits freely with no change in POI.

Anyway... now that I have a Grendel upper for hunting...I wondered, can you do the same thing to an AR?

The problem obviously could be that the air column in front of the bullet has two places to go... the muzzle or the gas port.

I've heard anecdotal evidence of people shooting through much heavier muzzle protectors, and not wrecking the rifle... But I'm looking for people who can confirm whether or not they've had problems having electrical tape on the muzzle of their AR's. I'm trying to find out if this causes the rifle to unlock the bolt before it should, etc.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 5:58:57 AM EST
Why don't you just use a stand muzzle protector? They are designed to be shot off. I would test them first to be sure but I doubt it will mess with you POI?...



DSG Arms has them in a 10 pack for $1.75 so it's not like they are expensive

DSG Arms AR15 / M16 muzzle covers (10 pack)
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 6:03:14 AM EST
Tape will work, but it's kinda hokey. Just don't leave it on long, or in the sun. I would wrap it once (LOOSELY) around the flash suppressor as well. Once you shoot about 20 rounds through it the tape should be completely melted/blown off.

I would just get a standard cap.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 6:26:01 AM EST
I would think either should work just fine.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 6:37:18 AM EST
Pick up a cap. The tape will leave baked on stickey crap that hard to clean off.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 6:38:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By JD42:
Pick up a cap. The tape will leave baked on stickey crap that hard to clean off.


Not as hard as headliner from a 1991 Suburban.


Uh... so I'm told.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 8:19:15 AM EST
hmmm. all the years I've used tape, never had a residue.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 8:41:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By FDC:
Tape will work, but it's kinda hokey. Just don't leave it on long, or in the sun. I would wrap it once (LOOSELY) around the flash suppressor as well. Once you shoot about 20 rounds through it the tape should be completely melted/blown off.

I would just get a standard cap.


Since he is using it hunting I would doubt he'll be shooting 20+ rounds. Or at least I hope he doesn't need to.


I say just try the tape while sighting in or what not and see how you like it. Since they make the caps mentioned earlier in this thread I think that should answer your question about the whole gas port issue. If the caps don't cause a problem then I doubt the tape will either.

If the tape doesn't suffice then go with the caps, but in my opinion (with no experience with this issue I might add), I say just go with the tape.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 8:59:08 AM EST
The cap changes POI significantly. Found that out for myself when I forgot to take the cap off at a High Power match.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 9:16:08 AM EST
The caps trap moisture...and they are complete crap. Dust and sand still got under the cap. Tape was better and stayed exactly where you put it.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 9:54:06 AM EST
Finger cotes work well also.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 10:14:25 AM EST
We used to make muzzle caps out of riggers tape for patrol. They were usually a double layer on the side but a single layer accross the muzzle.

They will change impact of the round and may cause light rounds to fragment (I only ever shot with M855). Remove it before you fire.

For general hunting I wouldn't worry about a cap. Carry cross-body muzzle down like you are patrolling, and you won't have to worry about anything getting IN the muzzle. We used them because in a tactical maneuver you spend a lot of time ON the ground.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 11:28:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
The caps trap moisture...and they are complete crap. Dust and sand still got under the cap. Tape was better and stayed exactly where you put it.


Only if you leave them on and completely forget about the whole weapons maintenance thing.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 12:25:18 PM EST
condoms...................
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 12:36:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 12:44:39 PM EST
Condoms have been used for a very long time to protect the muzzle of battle weapons.
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 6:39:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By dave89iroc:
condoms...................



Yeah, but when I shoot it will the bullet be strawberry flavored?
Link Posted: 11/11/2006 8:31:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
The caps trap moisture...and they are complete crap. Dust and sand still got under the cap. Tape was better and stayed exactly where you put it.


Only if you leave them on and completely forget about the whole weapons maintenance thing.


not really, leaving them on over night...you had a nice red dust you had to knock off in the morning with your gp brush and clp.
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 3:59:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
The caps trap moisture...and they are complete crap. Dust and sand still got under the cap. Tape was better and stayed exactly where you put it.


Only if you leave them on and completely forget about the whole weapons maintenance thing.


not really, leaving them on over night...you had a nice red dust you had to knock off in the morning with your gp brush and clp.


Seen that before, but usually on weapons that had rusted before(from previous users). In that case you're definitely right, it will trap moisture in humid areas.
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 4:09:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JD42:
Pick up a cap. The tape will leave baked on stickey crap that hard to clean off.


Not as hard as headliner from a 1991 Suburban.


Uh... so I'm told.
Funny thing is I totally get that..
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 5:32:29 AM EST
Try this trick with electrical tape. Get the 3m "marking" tape, comes in a variety of colors, and is low residue. Use a technique that I used doing tower work, specifically, back taping. Run the tape sticky side out for the first layer, then twist 180 and run another wrap. Now you have sticky side to sticky side, two layers. Easy to remove, no baked on residue. Simple and relatively cheap.
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 5:45:08 AM EST
You could just be a little more careful with your gun while hunting
and not worry about it.
Throw a piece of tape across your ass also to keep the
sticks, mud, snow, rain, etc. from getting in there too.

The woods can be a dangerous place for an unprotected hole...

KyAKGuy
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 7:55:33 AM EST
Condom.
My Grandpa used to do that is WW2
Link Posted: 11/12/2006 8:19:04 AM EST
The caps are fine. They don't change the point of impact. I've been shooting combat matches for the NCNG for years & many times I've forgotten to remove the cap. I've still shot Vs @ 600 yds. The bullet doesn't touch the cap. If you shoot one off, the column of air in front of the bullet blows the cap off before the bullet arrives. I've recovered many of them. They are usually about 25 yds downrange & turned inside out & petaled like a shotgun wad. No bullet hole. They are fine for carrying a weapon in the rain. But do not store a wet weapon with one on. A typical military rack stores the weapon with the muzzle up & as any trapped moisture that got into the weapon from the breech tries to evaporate up, it is trapped by the cap. I've seen many a chromed M16 barrel ruined by storing them wet with a cap on. They will look like a cast iron sewer pipe in no time. M9
Link Posted: 11/13/2006 6:58:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wingman26:
Condoms have been used for a very long time to protect the muzzle of battle weapons.


Finger cots are much, much cheaper, will do the same thing and fit better.

I bought a box of 500 for $7 five years ago.
Link Posted: 11/13/2006 7:31:11 PM EST
I've used the same electrical tape trick for years. cheap, available, and easy to use. Bonus: its always in the tool kit in my vehicle.

if you like it, fine.

If you don't, thats fine too.

I like the idea of keeping crap out of my bore while not paying 100% attention to it.

Finger cots seem like a good idea as well, but lets face it I don't have those in my vehicle's tool kit.

anything beats trying to clean crap out of your bore with a stick in the woods.

Link Posted: 11/13/2006 7:32:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The cap changes POI significantly. Found that out for myself when I forgot to take the cap off at a High Power match.



I've heard this before....

from what I recall, it can change the elevation by as much as 6 MOA low....

Link Posted: 11/13/2006 7:48:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kyarguy:
You could just be a little more careful with your gun while hunting
and not worry about it.
Throw a piece of tape across your ass also to keep the
sticks, mud, snow, rain, etc. from getting in there too.

The woods can be a dangerous place for an unprotected hole...

KyAKGuy


Go elk hunting in the Bitterroot Range. You will end up falling on your ass at least once a day. Once I fell and jammed my Weatherby barrel 4 inches into the ground where it stuck and propped me up half stuck in a bush.

Brush sucks.
Link Posted: 11/14/2006 11:53:24 AM EST
I wasn't going to comment on people asking why cover the muzzle...and just saying to be muzzle aware.... and that's obvious. But the reality is, you get in thick enough stuff, you'll still lose. Once you hit six-foot high blackberry thickets with 3 inches of snow suspended on every vine.... you will end up with snow in places you don't want it.
Link Posted: 11/14/2006 2:14:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By TrapperJohn4077:

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The cap changes POI significantly. Found that out for myself when I forgot to take the cap off at a High Power match.



I've heard this before....

from what I recall, it can change the elevation by as much as 6 MOA low....




Not that I've seen. I've shot a lot of highpower, but not with a cap. I've also competed in a lot of Army combat matches. In a combat match, you fire in the rain, snow, sleet , hail, whatever mother nature throws at you, no alibi allowed. So we use the cap. Being human, I have forgot to remove it. Never noticed any change in impact even in 600 yd precision slow fire.

How would you hypothesize that the cap changes impact? The bullet never touches it. It is blown off the barrel shortly after the bullet starts moving down the barrel, so I can see where you might make a somewhat dubuious claim that it affects barrel harmonics, though I don't buy it as IMO it is gone before the barrel starts humming. I would think that the often used Condom or electric tape would have more potential too change impact since they usually remain on the barrel. M9
Link Posted: 11/14/2006 2:49:23 PM EST
I am guessing that there are times when the cap would stick and not blow clear. It is possible to contact the projectile.

That is why on precision rifles we always used a single piece of riggers tape lightly pressed on. It would usually blow off if you forgot to remove it.
Link Posted: 11/14/2006 4:08:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
I am guessing that there are times when the cap would stick and not blow clear. It is possible to contact the projectile.

That is why on precision rifles we always used a single piece of riggers tape lightly pressed on. It would usually blow off if you forgot to remove it.




Have you ever shot one off? Those puppies go downrange for about 25 yards & are turned inside out & split & petaled like a shotgun wad. Trust me its coming off. M9
Link Posted: 11/14/2006 9:32:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By M9Powell:

Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
I am guessing that there are times when the cap would stick and not blow clear. It is possible to contact the projectile.

That is why on precision rifles we always used a single piece of riggers tape lightly pressed on. It would usually blow off if you forgot to remove it.




Have you ever shot one off? Those puppies go downrange for about 25 yards & are turned inside out & split & petaled like a shotgun wad. Trust me its coming off. M9


That's basically what I have found as well. Mine seem to be landing a bit short of 25 yards, but peeled open like a bananna. POI @ at 50 yards is virtually unchanged when fired from a duty weapon with ball ammo.

I would assume that some shift in POI could be observed if shooting a precision rig from a bench.
Link Posted: 11/15/2006 3:06:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By M9Powell:

Originally Posted By TrapperJohn4077:

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The cap changes POI significantly. Found that out for myself when I forgot to take the cap off at a High Power match.



I've heard this before....

from what I recall, it can change the elevation by as much as 6 MOA low....




Not that I've seen. I've shot a lot of highpower, but not with a cap. I've also competed in a lot of Army combat matches. In a combat match, you fire in the rain, snow, sleet , hail, whatever mother nature throws at you, no alibi allowed. So we use the cap. Being human, I have forgot to remove it. Never noticed any change in impact even in 600 yd precision slow fire.

How would you hypothesize that the cap changes impact? The bullet never touches it. It is blown off the barrel shortly after the bullet starts moving down the barrel, so I can see where you might make a somewhat dubuious claim that it affects barrel harmonics, though I don't buy it as IMO it is gone before the barrel starts humming. I would think that the often used Condom or electric tape would have more potential too change impact since they usually remain on the barrel. M9


Don't know the science behind it, just direct observation. If I get a chance will see if I can find it in one of my score books.
Link Posted: 11/15/2006 10:44:39 AM EST
Having tape or a cap is not going to affect anything.
Link Posted: 11/15/2006 11:11:20 AM EST
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