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Posted: 10/13/2004 12:30:28 PM EST
How will this setup work out - am I better off getting another type of rail system?

TIA
Mike
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:42:30 PM EST
Wont work. Eotech sits too high, cant co-witness, doesnt provide good cheek weld.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:45:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:30:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 6:33:05 PM EST by Ridley]
*cough cough bullshit*

I have an arms SIR which is very similar. I personally PREFER the eotech mounted up higher so the small red dot is not interfered with by the front sight post. I have no problem with cheek weld, maybe some people on here have skinny little John Kerry faces........their answers certainly sound like something he would spew forth.

If having the eotech mounted higher was such a terrible thing, I doubt Larue and the other companies would have spent the time and money developing an Eotech mount that does just that. I realize it allows for QD, but it wouldn't solve this cheek weld BS spoken of, and wouldn't allow cowitnessing. IMO cowitnessing is WAY over rated anyways.

If you like the looks of the Pred rail, buy it. Besides needing to remove the FSB to install, it will work as well as anything on the market. The Eotech is a great sight, and in the case that you must use BUIS, you can still see enough of them to function acceptably well, at least well enough to give you a few second to remove the eotech. Personally, I'm considering mounting the eotech on an arms mount that will raise it even further, but add QD capabilities. Even then, it will still be mounted lower than acogs or scopes mounted on the carry handle. I see alot of those.......must not have skinny Kerrry faces. In fact, theres one of those mounting settups about 8 inches up on the left
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:22:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 7:37:20 PM EST by Onslaught]

*cough cough bullshit*


OH GOODY, let me pull up a chair and watch...

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:08:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:27:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

The EOTech will work just fine on top of a SIR rail. The problem is that it WILL NOT CO-WITNESS CORRECTLY. If that doesn't bother you then good for you. The rest of use like co-witness capability on our weapons....


C4



+1 Grant beat me to it!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:29:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:00:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:
*cough cough bullshit*

I have an arms SIR which is very similar. I personally PREFER the eotech mounted up higher so the small red dot is not interfered with by the front sight post. I have no problem with cheek weld, maybe some people on here have skinny little John Kerry faces........their answers certainly sound like something he would spew forth.

If having the eotech mounted higher was such a terrible thing, I doubt Larue and the other companies would have spent the time and money developing an Eotech mount that does just that. I realize it allows for QD, but it wouldn't solve this cheek weld BS spoken of, and wouldn't allow cowitnessing. IMO cowitnessing is WAY over rated anyways.

If you like the looks of the Pred rail, buy it. Besides needing to remove the FSB to install, it will work as well as anything on the market. The Eotech is a great sight, and in the case that you must use BUIS, you can still see enough of them to function acceptably well, at least well enough to give you a few second to remove the eotech. Personally, I'm considering mounting the eotech on an arms mount that will raise it even further, but add QD capabilities. Even then, it will still be mounted lower than acogs or scopes mounted on the carry handle. I see alot of those.......must not have skinny Kerrry faces. In fact, theres one of those mounting settups about 8 inches up on the left






Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:51:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:05:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 6:25:05 AM EST by VTDefender]
Just get a bi-level SIR.

Co-witnesses with the eotech on there just fine.



you can see the lower railed area that the Eotech is mounted to on my #58Mod.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:12:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 8:26:07 AM EST by Ridley]
I just emailed Larue and told them that their Eotech mount is "less than ideal" and that it was a complete waste of money, time, and effort lol. Lets see what they have to say about it.

Please tell me exactly why Cowitnessing is so important? If there's ever a need to use the irons over the eotech, it will be because the eotech DOESN'T WORK!!!! If it doesn't work, what the hell would make the difference if the dot THAT ISN"T THERE ANYMORE is on top of the FSB? As long as you can see your irons through the window, you are good to go IMHO. All this other BS rhetoric is just that, Bullshit and Rhetoric. Explain to me why it's so important as long as you can see the FSB in a pinch?

Going back to a QD mount, if you can remove any optic for that matter, in less than 3 seconds, what does it really matter if it covers up the front sight? Whats all this about cheekweld? I seem to be able to have a perfectly consistent cheek weld. The higher the optic, the more upright you hold your head, and the more upright you hold your head, the better your ballance, and peripheral vision become. Besides, last I checked, the Eotech is 100% paralax free as long as the 65moa circle is visable in the window. This allows a HUGE fudge factor in your cheekweld(although i still think your cheekweld argument is WEAK), and doesn't affect your POI one iota. In other words, your cheek need not even touch the stock to shoot acccurately. You can shoot an eotech backwards in a mirror and hit the target. You can shoot with your head 2 inches away from the stock and be dead on, You can stick the rifle between your legs backwards, bend over, and shoot the rifle between your legs accurately. IF YOU CAN SEE THE RECTICLE, YOU CAN SHOOT THE WEAPON ACCURATELY.

If you can't buy yourself the time to remove the eotech in the rare unstance that it fails, in the unforseen circumstance that for some reason you can't see the FSB thats definetely visable through the window when using the pred or arms rail, the sheer shitty luck that your backup laser doesn't work, and considering that you just are too shitty a marksman to hit a tango in CQB with NO SIGHTS, and then the evil zombies actually do get you then I guess we can just chalk it up to natural selection. The chances of the eotech failing is 1 in thousands, the chances you just trudged through neck deep swamp and the bottom half of the eotech window is obtructed and your dumb enough not to clear it is pretty rare, the chances of a quality backup laser not working is 1 in the 1000's, and the chances of not being able to point and shoot without sights is well, slim for me but YMMV. All added together, the chances are 1 in 100,000's of all those things working against you. If you have to engage the zombies 100,000 times, I suggest you move, lol.

Hey, to each their own though. I call it paranoid as hell, you call it what you want. I'll trust my life to my skills and my Eotech I guess for that matter. The way I see it, unless the zombies can get to me in my house where you really don't even need sights at all, I'll make it to the woods. If I make it to the woods, they'll never see me before it's WAY WAY to late.


Am I wrong like new ar guy says? Not enough to make a difference in a real world situation. Not as wrong as mounting ANY optic on top of a carry handle, especially a magnified one like an acog. Damn, there's just a shitload of wrong people out there I guess, lmao
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:29:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 8:29:29 AM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:34:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 9:31:25 AM EST by new-arguy]
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:48:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Zombies??? 1 in a 1,000 chance of your optic failing??? I think your village called.....


C4



Are they asking for their idiot back

lol, just kidding
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:24:42 AM EST
Thanks new AR guy for your answer i truely appreciate it. I'm glad there is some one willing to give an factual answer and not be a complete fuckin dick(c4grant)

By the way, I won't be buying anything off G and R tactical on my next builds. One thing i learned from being a multiple business owner on other forums, is you STFU or try to be helpful. Being an ass will put you out of business.

I have not tried the predator rail, I did not know it was taller than the SIR, my bad, and i realize it makes my predator rail argument off base. I guess thats what I get for assuming. I still think though however, that having a QD mount for any optic, eotech included, makes cowitnessing a minor inconveinience if not a non issue all together.


Sorry for adding the "zombies" comment. I was trying to interject a little humor. I should have known better than to do it around such paranoid freaks. Take off your ex wifes thongs, and maybe you'll be able to breath a little better Grant. With a condescending attitude like that, I doubt you could stay married long.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:41:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 9:43:02 AM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:55:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:05:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Well lets see xmikex asks if the EOTech will work with the predator. Two informed people say no joy. Then you come along and the very first thing you say is BULLSHIT. You apparently don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to co-witnessing and the need for it! You have to give respect to get it friend!



Ditto on Grant's comments (he beat me to the punch).

Whats with this rash of newbies WITH NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE GEAR MENTIONED chiming in with opinions especially when the facts contradict them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:11:04 AM EST
Exactly, you said it "wont work". That is false. Evidently it won't cowitness, but it will work nonetheless and work well if cowitnessing is not important to the fellow. Whether or not cowitnessing is important is a matter of OPINION. Instead of laying out the facts, you give the ballhugger +1 answer instead of elaborating like a true professional.

I hope you don't lose any sleep, just hope you think twice next time before spouting off stupid shit. One thing is certain though, not many people spend more money on toys around here than me.

Now, like new ar guy said, enough is enough. I'm done posting in these forums. I deal with enough dickheads on a daily basis, I don't need any more.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:43:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 10:47:17 AM EST by Polyak]

Originally Posted By Ridley:
Exactly, you said it "wont work". That is false. Evidently it won't cowitness, but it will work nonetheless and work well if cowitnessing is not important to the fellow. Whether or not cowitnessing is important is a matter of OPINION. Instead of laying out the facts, you give the ballhugger +1 answer instead of elaborating like a true professional.

I hope you don't lose any sleep, just hope you think twice next time before spouting off stupid shit. One thing is certain though, not many people spend more money on toys around here than me.

Now, like new ar guy said, enough is enough. I'm done posting in these forums. I deal with enough dickheads on a daily basis, I don't need any more.



Ridley,

Evidentally you don't read too well.

Grant merely did a +1 to what h8mtv wrote, which was:


Originally Posted By h8mtv:
Wont work. Eotech sits too high, cant co-witness, doesnt provide good cheek weld.



Grant did not say it won't work, end of story.

You are the one that owes Grant an apology, Grant did not make any big deal of it, he just " +1 ". You are the one that made the big deal. Grant is one hell of a great dealer and contributor here.

You didn't quite understand what cowitnessing meant, no big deal, I'm sure a lot of folks don't. Now that you do know what it means, you don't think it matters to you, fine. But for most folks that do have their ARs for defense or competition reasons, having back up irons does mean a great deal. Not everyone uses their weapons for the same reasons, but it's good practice to have your weapons set up for worse case, IMO.


Your little smart a55 comment about the Larue mount is childish. The Larue mount does raise the Eo, but not near as high as the SIR or Predator. The irons are still able to cowitness just fine with that mount.

I would reccomend you to get involved with a tactical shooting match in your area. Or attend a carbine class. The shooting drills you will likely experience will QUICKLY show you why "cheek weld" and "cowitnessing" and such are very important. But to each their own.

I don't think anyone wants you to go away, but just try to not jump the gun so quickly as you did in this thread calling people out when it is actually yourself that needs to learn a little more.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:45:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:44:32 AM EST
In an attempt to clarify some terminology for the educational aspect of this forum:

From the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site Optics FAQ (-- excellent source of AR information)
-----------------------------------------
Q: What is 'Co-Witness'? And, how is it good?
A: Co-Witness is the ability of your irons to look through your optic (1x - not magnified) - so they both shoot on the same trajectory. There are two kinds - absolute (both the dot and irons are on the same plan), and offset (where the irons are usually in the lower 1/3 of the optics display). With co-witnessed sights you can verify the zero of the optic by looking through the irons (the dot should sit on top of the front sight). However, normally you look over the irons and just use the optic (trust me, you won't notice the iron sights); should the batteries fail your head comes down a fraction of an inch and you're using the iron sights (looking throught the now-dead optic).
(emphasis added)
-----------------------------

It is my understanding that the reason behind absolute co-witnessing is in the event of either removing and reinstalling optics, or after a significant, physical impact on the rifle and/or optic the electronic zero of the dot can be verified ("co-witness"= joint verification as to truthfulness or accuracy) by the more-rugged (and therefore less likely to have moved or changed zero in the interum) iron sights without having to fire any rounds.

Off-set "co-witnessing" seems to me to be an misnomer and only a shorthand way of referencing seeing the irons through the lenses, independantly of the dot location; using a different term, although linguistically correct, is unlikely to be adopted at this point, I'd venture.
Off-set "co-witnessing" is worthless for jointly verifying anything to any type of certainty, and you are left with some sort of 3-way bore sighting.

-- to each his own, but one cheek weld/ automatic muscle memory/ natural point of aim (call it what you want) for irons or dot regardless of conditions seems preferable, if available.


Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:44:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 4:45:16 PM EST by Stickman]
**edited** Never mind, just another pissing contest on ARF....
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:07:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 7:09:22 PM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By otto_esq:
....
Off-set "co-witnessing" is worthless for jointly verifying anything to any type of certainty, and you are left with some sort of 3-way bore sighting.
.



No it's not - you have to understand how these (red-dot & holographic) sights operate. Even with the irons in the lower 1/3 the dot will be on top of the front sight. Remember that is the advantage of parrallax free collameter sights - no matter where the dot is in the display it's still pointing at the same place.

So normally your primary (the electronic collameter type sight) is the only sight you use - but if you want to verify your irons (or if your irons are known to be zeroed and you want to check your optic) then look through the irons at a target at least 50-100y away - the dot should be bisected by the front sight blade.

It's like having your cake and eating it too - with sights!

P.S. Thanks for the kind words about www.MD-AR15.com.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:11:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 2:12:44 AM EST by h8mtv]
Will the eotech fit?... Yes! Does it co-witness? No! I guess some clowns like to stare at the control panel of their Eotech when they look thru their buis. P4's and Arms units alike look dumb without a buis to fill the void where a buis is supposed to be. But I guess you could just put a buis on for looks, or take off your $300+ scope when you want to use them. Yeah, great idea.

edit-BTW, the Larue mount doesnt make the Eotech sit up nearly as high as the Predator does.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:38:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
... you have to understand how these (red-dot & holographic) sights operate. Even with the irons in the lower 1/3 the dot will be on top of the front sight. Remember that is the advantage of parrallax free collameter sights - no matter where the dot is in the display it's still pointing at the same place.



Holy sh!t. Thanks. Learned somthing new today. Scratch my "off-set" paragraph, above.

I either use just a dot and no BUIS, or have them "absolute" co-witnessed for the same cheekweld for either sighting device, and I completely forgot about the parlallax-free advantages. Thinking about it now, of course you are absolutely right. Hm. Makes me worried about what other obvious or previously-known issues I've forgotten...



P.S. Thanks for the kind words about www.MD-AR15.com.



They are well-deserved.

I really like the site and it's a great resource for all things AR-related. You got just about everything covered there, but I used to see it referenced in the discussions more often, but not lately. Maybe its just my perception, but either way, I linked to it twice just yesterday on different topics.

Thanks again,

Cheers, Otto

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:55:59 AM EST
I use a Bushnell Trophy red dot on my P4. It cowitnesses perfectly.
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 5:21:41 PM EST
What about co-witness with an aimpoint ML2?

thanks
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 5:44:13 PM EST
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