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Posted: 12/14/2002 10:55:46 AM EDT
Combination light and laser seems the most reasonable way to go if they work.  Am concerned, however, about the stability of the laser when using their handguard mount.  Can anyone provide input/experience regarding quality, brightness and stability?

Link Posted: 12/15/2002 5:40:45 PM EDT
Have just installed an M-6 on my 16" upper and it works just fine, but I find that the handguard mount is restrictive (Doesn't leave much hand room on M-4 handguards) and would prefer a barrel mount, but have been unable to find one that puts it above in front of sight, or below. Quality is great, light is very bright, stability suffers somewhat because handguards move. Hope this helps..  
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 5:58:37 PM EDT
Thanks for the reply, Short-Fuse.  I like the location on the handguard but was worried about the stability and did'nt want to affect accuracy by mounting one on the barrel.  Guess I'll get one and worry about the mounting later.  If you have a pre-ban, Brownell's shows a mount in their catalog that utilizes the sling swivel mount and bayonet lug.  Unfortunately all of my ARs are post-ban.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 9:36:15 PM EDT
De-ja-vu! I was just speaking with a friend about this earlier and directed him towards this thread. It is not entirely related to your questions, but you may find it interesting, if you agree or not.

Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:36:03 AM EDT
new-arguy,  Thanks for the link!  I did a search prior to posting my question but that thread did'nt show up.  I've pretty much convinced myself to get one, just wish I could find a stable mounting platform for it without mounting it on the barrel and affecting it's harmonics.  A local shop has replacement shorty handguards (Samco?) that have a rail top and bottom but I'm sure they would flex as much as the originals.  The thread mentions holding zero.  I have a Crimson trace factory installed on my Glock 23 and Crimson trace grips on my S&W 640.  They've never lost their zero.  Hope the M-6 does as well as these.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:55:35 AM EDT

Link Posted: 12/16/2002 8:07:32 AM EDT
Thanks for the link GLOCKshooter.  If I wind up going to a barrel mount, that one appears to be ideal!
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 8:35:17 AM EDT
You can still use your iron sights, but the laser sits just a little lower, and on the same vertical plane, so zeroing it at 50 gives you the same advantages of zeroing your irons at 50.  if you mount it out to the side or under the barrel you get a bunch of headaches with different distances.  
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 8:40:16 AM EDT
GLOCKshooter, sounds like you have one.  Did mounting yours affect accuracy?  Can't tell from the pic, does it replace the original sling swivel as well or is the stud a seperate item?

Link Posted: 12/16/2002 8:50:14 AM EDT
Yes, I have one.
No, it does not effect accuracy as far as I can tell, but i'm more of a 'dingin metal plates while standing or moving as opposed to a bench rest, one ragged hole guy.  

Also, my M6 lives on my M17sEXT now, after just a brief stint on the M4A3.


The front sling swivel has been removed in the photo.  It does not have to be, and I did not remove mine.  You could, however, mount a KAC or Fobus rail sling stud on any of the other rails (side, bottom)
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 9:11:23 AM EDT
Thanks for the info GLOCKshooter.  I'm going to order one today and keep my fingers crossed on the accuracy issue.  I'm getting sub M.O.A. with Hornady 55 gr. T.A.P. ammo in both my Shorty and 20" HBAR now and I'd like to keep it that way. (just got a 20" V-Match with a Weaver Grand Slam 3-10X40 and Armelite mount but have'nt had a chance to shoot it yet)  BTW, the set-up on your bullpup looks great.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 2:05:50 PM EDT
Glockshooter, I also thank you for the link. It seems like what I have been looking for.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 4:33:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2002 4:34:41 PM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
"God created Man, Colonel Colt made them equal."

And then Gaston Glock made some men more equal than others.[;)]
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 4:36:29 PM EDT
I've got one, works great, it's on my Knight's handguards, left front side.

No problems, I like it cause I can trip it with my thumb.  Very quick access.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 5:20:14 PM EDT
Hokie,  I picked up an M-6 this afternoon.  I like the CORE mount that GLOCKshooter has but can't find one locally and Sidearmor won't even ship for seven to ten days.  Do you find that the POI changes with the flex of the handguards? A local vendor has replacement shorty handguards that have a mounting rail on the top and bottom but, as I stated previously, I'm concerned about the flex affecting point of impact and would also have to move the sling to mount the M-6 on the bottom.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:12:28 PM EDT
GG&G makes a nice side sling adaptor that has a weaver rail mount. Fits inside the front sight tower.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:29:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2002 7:29:57 PM EDT by Hokie]
The way I see it, the POI changing on account of flexing is moot under 50 yards.  I've got mine zeroed at 25 yards.  Figure in the dark when the laser is applicable, you'd be shooting less than 25 yards...and even if you stretched a shooting scene out to 25-40 yards, the laser would still be within 10" of impact, which is fine for 'in the moment' shooting.

On the Knight's handguards, I don't think the flexing is too relevant.  They're pretty rigid.

The handguard you have, if I'm thinking of the same one, should be fine as well.  "FOBUS?" "M33?"  I forget the name of them.

Regarding the sling.  It's my opinion that a new sling is cheaper and easier than purchasing a special, unnecessary add on.  A sling like this [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/slings/std-bp42-bk.asp[/url] is cheaper than most rails, adaptors, blocks, etc that you'll find.  I have this sling and it's great.  Let's the rifle hang BELOW the sling instead of OVER it.  Makes sense ya know?  Comes off easy too, so you don't have to keep it on there when you go to the range, or store it in a safe.

Hope this helps, good luck man.  Nice job on the M6, you'll like it.  Weighs next to nothing, has 80-90 lumens, laser, and an easy switch!  I think the only deterrent is the price.  But once you got it, you got it.[;]
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:47:41 PM EDT
Thanks for all the input guys. Nice set-up, Hokie!  So many options, so little time/money.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 9:39:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2002 9:40:54 PM EDT by new-arguy]
Ten inches difference between point of aim and point of impact is acceptable? Maybe if your targets are wide open with nothing in front of or behind them and you have more than 10 inches of target available. The way I've been instructed, that is not always, and in fact could rarely be the case...

Also, dont want to say the M6/M3 is a bad light. Because I do not think that it is. But I will tell you it is not 80-90 lumens. 60 maybe, but not more.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 12:44:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2002 1:30:47 AM EDT by Hokie]
I should clarify.  Here's my science.

From sighting it in, figure it sits roughly 2 inches max off the rifle barrel right?  Say two for arguement's sake.  Didn't bring the caliper to the PC desk! [;)]

So at 0 yards, pressing the muzzle against a wall, the laser is 2 inches from the muzzle.  At 12.5 yards, it's at 1 inch.  At 25, 0.

So at 37.5, it's 1 inch from the muzzle, on the opposite side of the muzzle since the trajectory is past the POI.  At 50 yards, 2 inches off POI.  Not too shabby.  Unless you tape a laser to the barrel itself, you won't find much better.  Although some laser hug the handguards and get closer to the barrel than 2 inches...but, you don't get the light combo.  The M6 advantage is it's very light and very small.  3 oz?  Bright flashlight with laser and multiple settings with a quick switch and pressure switch if you want it.

Seems right.  So I should instead say less than 3 inches off, in my case.  That's much better than 10".  I suppose these figures change depending on what range you sight the POI in.

The M6 is a great light, and it's advertised at 80-90 lumens.  I have no way of actually proving that.  Seems pretty bright to me and it lights up a dark room very very well.  That'll never be a problem.  I'm sure there are other options and potentially brighter lights, but the M6 is a great choice, absolutely.

But don't take "New Arguy" lightly, he's not new at all, and he's very knowledgable.  His posts are always 'right on target.'  [beer]
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 7:42:00 AM EDT
Thank you Hokie. Yeah, standard zero practice for iron sights will have you at anywhere from 2.5" high to 2.5" low anywhere from arms reach to something like 250 yards. Thats a great zero and if your laser is on par with that, you cant do much better. 10" is a big difference and I would be very conerned if my POI was that for off my POA.

Most companies exagerate how bright their lights are. This was truely a problem when everyone was using "candle-power" to rate the brightness. I've done a lot of comparisons of these light. M3/M6 lights are a good 60 lumens or so, and for the size of the light, that is not bad at all. It is very close to the same brightness of a Surefire 2 cell 60 lumen light. It is not brighter... period. However, I will say thay the M3/M6 60 lumens is not as pure or as solid as a Surefire 60 lumens. The Surefire systems just provide a more pure, white and solid beam.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:02:15 AM EDT
If you mounted it on the bottom and zeroed at 50-75 yds the beam might just fly in such a way that it would compensate (roughly for drop out to 330yds approx 300meters) ?

That'ld be cool
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 10:25:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2002 10:27:48 AM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
Negative.  If you put the laser above the bore axis it will cross the trajectory twice, once close and once far.  If you place it under it will only cross once.  Look at the trajectories in the link below.  Print the page, then draw a straigh line at any angle you want starting below the beggining point.  It will only cross once.  If you start an inch and a half above bore and zero at around 50 (yards or meters) you'll do ok for most realistic shots.    

Link Posted: 12/19/2002 12:10:15 PM EDT

We have installed the M6 on several customers AR15's, and they are a big hit with them. They are a bit pricey, but we are about as cheap as you'll find them.  But when you consider that you're getting a light and a laser in one, it's not that bad.  I use the M6 on my duty Glock pistol also.  

Link Posted: 12/19/2002 12:33:22 PM EDT
I bought my M6 from Donnie.  
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:30:06 AM EDT
Paid about $250 (don't remember the exact amount) from Glockmeister.com. How does that compare to Donnie's price??
Works super on the wife's G22C.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 1:57:05 PM EDT
I just mounted my M-6 with a Bushmaster under barrel mount.  I sighted the laser in for 50 yards.  According to the JBM ballistics calculator, the trajectory will never be more than 1.4" above or below line-of-sight out to 75 yards, which is the greatest distance I'd rely on the laser anyway.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:00:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 3:00:35 PM EDT by Hokie]
Right on!  I've got mine over the barrel with that Core-Mount you see on the first page
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