Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Site Notices
9/17/2020 5:59:48 PM
Posted: 4/23/2013 2:34:01 PM EDT
Friend of mine bought a carbine from PSA (nice stuff, good rifle), and wanted the forearm changed. Came with a Midwest Industries SS II forearm. Never seen it before, but they had locktited the forearm (not screws, whole forearm) to the barrel nut. Called MI about it, and they told me that YES, they instruct people to locktite the forearm to the barrel nut. I asked how they expected people to remove the forearm for maintenance/ cleaning if it was locktited on, and they told me that you aren't supposed to EVER remove the forearm once it is installed (and that removing it/ reinstalling it for regular maintenance would damage it). Evidently, the friction system as originally designed didn't work as anticipated, and they tell people to use locktite to keep the forend from walking. Guess you learn something every day... two hundred bucks for a forearm that doesn't seem to be made for field use. Not a fan of safe queens... My buddy is replacing his with a Yankee Hill, and I'm changing my 15" out for one of the sexy new PSA hourglass forearms. The SS II was good looking (and handled well), but I like sturdy and maintenance-friendly.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 2:57:05 PM EDT
Not surprised.  It is easy to see why their design is inferior to other forearms on the market and I speculated potential problems when the forearm was first released. Then as time went on, I have seen posts of folks having problems (specifically the forearm sliding forward) and MI suggesting locktiting the forearm to the barrel nut as the answer.  That's a half-assed "fix" in my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 3:04:49 PM EDT
Meh, they can't even make their rails to spec, so you know, shit fits on them.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 6:29:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
two hundred bucks for a forearm that doesn't seem to be made for field use.




How do you figure? Sight one instance when it has failed anyone.....and the lock tight isnt neccissary. The nut is knurled and the rail clamps down tight as anything. The lock tight is insurance only and it comes lose with a little heat......no more than a blow dryer is needed to heat blue lock tight.......put it back on without it , clamp it to the recommended torque and I bet you can’t get it to move without damaging it and  your rifle before it comes off.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 6:43:49 AM EDT
Hey, I'm just sayin' what MI told me on the phone. They're the ones who told me all this.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:22:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:
Meh, they can't even make their rails to spec, so you know, shit fits on them.


What "SPEC" are you talking about here?  This word gets thrown around alot with no backup.  I have an MI SS Gen II and it works just fine without any Loctite applied.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:22:17 AM EDT
Never had any issues with any of MI rails.The loctite is only a secondary security measure and is easily removed by applying heat with a heat gun or torch, no it will not harm the finish.Same thing with screws on a gas block, a lot of people red loctite them, if I feel any resistance when removing I simply heat until the screw breaks loose.With your forearm simply heat it and you can use a block (wood) or rubber mallet to know it off. Your problem sounds more like a lack of tools and understanding.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:23:55 AM EDT
Never had one fail, gen 1 or 2, sometimes assembly is above someones pay grade, and they need to leave it to an expert.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:26:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:
Meh, they can't even make their rails to spec, so you know, shit fits on them.


Never had a fit issue? Of course I never mount shitty products to my MI rails.MI rails if you understand how to install and work with them are the best value on the market today.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:27:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By oli700:
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
two hundred bucks for a forearm that doesn't seem to be made for field use.




How do you figure? Sight one instance when it has failed anyone.....and the lock tight isnt neccissary. The nut is knurled and the rail clamps down tight as anything. The lock tight is insurance only and it comes lose with a little heat......no more than a blow dryer is needed to heat blue lock tight.......put it back on without it , clamp it to the recommended torque and I bet you can’t get it to move without damaging it and  your rifle before it comes off.

2nd that, hopefully the ones whining are not trade school graduates.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:29:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Hey, I'm just sayin' what MI told me on the phone. They're the ones who told me all this.


That's messed up.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:56:45 AM EDT
This thread is bizarre.

First, what kind of "regular maintenance and cleaning" so you remove a hand guard for?  I have *NEVER* seen or felt a need to remove a hand guard for any kind of maintenance or cleaning, and there is NO "field" maintenance that requires this either.    Once a FF handguard is installed, there is little reason to remove it unless you are replacing the barrel due to wear, or preference.  MOST FF tubes on the market use some sort of tension and constantly attaching and removing these with place potential stress on the fasteners and thread inserts.

Sure, locktite could potentially increase surface tension and adhesion from the rail to the barrel nut.... but I see this as overkill.  The MI design is a COPY from Troy/Samson designs, it is a knurled barrel nut with a pinching clamp which utilizes steel thread inserts to keep from stripping.  Troy also had some complaints about these getting loose, mostly due to improper installation, or over-torqueing and stripping the fasteners, so they changed their design on the "alpha" versions.

I have never had any issue with the older Troy/Samson design, or the direct copy which is on the MI rails.  They absolutely can be removed if needed, just apply the PROPER torque to the fasteners.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 12:34:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 12:35:01 PM EDT by Pvt_Becker]
Originally Posted By Russ4777:
Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:
Meh, they can't even make their rails to spec, so you know, shit fits on them.


What "SPEC" are you talking about here?  This word gets thrown around alot with no backup.  I have an MI SS Gen II and it works just fine without any Loctite applied.


Originally Posted By georgio421:

Never had a fit issue? Of course I never mount shitty products to my MI rails.MI rails if you understand how to install and work with them are the best value on the market today.


That spec would be MIL-STD-1913, otherwise known as Picatinny. I have had 2 MI rails, 1 was a drop in carbine rail, the other a free float mid length rail. Both of them had rail portions that were over sized so normal items would either not fit unless modified (grinding) or would be extremely tight. Such items include Surefire X300 (U or P latch, didn't matter) a KAC broom stick, KAC panel covers and various Magpul items like an AFG and vertical grip.

All of these same items fit like they should on either of my 2 KAC RAS rails, my KAC URX III rail, my Centurion C4 rail, and my Daniel Defense Omega X 12" FSP rail. Midwest Industries can kick rocks, they will never get another dime from me.

And before anyone says this is old news and they fixed the problem, the midlength free float rail I got in mid 2012 from Bravo Company was out of spec. I returned it and got a Centurion C4 instead.

Never again.


Link Posted: 4/24/2013 2:22:46 PM EDT
My x300 won't attach properly either.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 3:28:30 PM EDT
I love this...  Make an identical thread and change MI to UTG and watch the haters show up.  But nooooo...  Make and honest critisism of MI and the fanboys say you are stupid for wanting to be able to remove your rail?   I shot my gun in the rain this weekend...  So should I oil and clean under the rail or just leave it?  Acording to the guy a few posts up I should never remove the rail.  I guess Ill just listen to him and watch my gas block, tube, and bbl rust away to nothing....  

This is honest and fair critisim leveled at a company with a good rep.   Instead of fanboying maybe you guys could actually listen and ask MI what the F***...  

Naw...

I think I just figured out the forum finally...  

Just hate on anything you don't own and defend everything you do...
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 3:45:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Russ4777:


 I have an MI SS Gen II and it works just fine without any Loctite applied.


So do I, no issues at all.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 3:57:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 5:05:50 PM EDT by chewbacca]
FALARAK, the comparison with the Troy isn't quite accurate.  The TRX and new Alpha forearms slide on to the nut at an angle and then the forearm is rotated which dis-aligns the grooves in the forearm with the brl nut teeth so the forearm can't move forward.  Only if the pinch bolts failed, like you said from over torquing or something, then the forearm can be rotated then pulled to the front.

ETA: After I re-read your (FALARAK) post, I don't think you are talking about the MI Gen II one piece forearm.  I think you are referencing their old style that had the two piece barrel nut attachment like the old (non TRX/Aplha) Troy/Samson rail. I think you are talking about this: old MI vs this
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 4:48:22 PM EDT
Yeah, I tend to shoot in dusty/wet/dirty conditions, not nice, clean, grassy ranges. Even a stainless barrel will rust if not kept maintained, same for parked. Cleaning junk out from under the forearm for me is usually a bit more involved than just using a Q-tip. As to my forearm, I hadn't had any problems (yet), but not in a position where a fail is acceptable. Like the forearm design and feel, but reliable is just as important. Maybe they should lengthen the barrel nut friction surface and add a third screw? The feel really is top-notch.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 4:50:07 PM EDT
Nope, the newer model. Spoke with Andy at MI.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 5:06:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Nope, the newer model. Spoke with Andy at MI.


Right, I was saying FALARAK wasn't talking about the right forearm.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 7:18:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By InsaneAuto86:
Originally Posted By Russ4777:


 I have an MI SS Gen II and it works just fine without any Loctite applied.


So do I, no issues at all.


I have 2, no issues
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 4:59:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
FALARAK, the comparison with the Troy isn't quite accurate.  The TRX and new Alpha forearms slide on to the nut at an angle and then the forearm is rotated which dis-aligns the grooves in the forearm with the brl nut teeth so the forearm can't move forward.  Only if the pinch bolts failed, like you said from over torquing or something, then the forearm can be rotated then pulled to the front.

ETA: After I re-read your (FALARAK) post, I don't think you are talking about the MI Gen II one piece forearm.  I think you are referencing their old style that had the two piece barrel nut attachment like the old (non TRX/Aplha) Troy/Samson rail. I think you are talking about this: old MI vs this



You are correct in that my comparison wasn't exactly accurate - but I am talking about the older generation TRX from Troy (non-alpha) and the CURRENT generation (G2) from MI.  In that both use a pinch clamp with two screws in the clamp for the primary retention of the forearm.  Yes, the Troy does have the additional stability offered by requiring rotation before it comes all the way off, but my comparison was based on that both use the pinch clamp as the primary mechanism to hold it in place.  Loose is loose.

That said, I have several Troy TRX (non-alpha) and have installed several MI G2's on builds, and never had either back off or loosen, or fall off.

As to the "shooting in the rain" comment.... I don't know.  My weapons are tools.  I never worried about surface rust underneath a handguard.  I have had my weapons get wet from rain many times, never seen any issues, and never removed a handguard for it.  But if you want to obsess about such things - fine.... simply remove your handguard, clean, and reinstall.  If you do it weekly, I'd probably not recommend any free float application for someone like that.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 5:18:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 5:21:25 AM EDT by Desert_AIP]
I have 5 MI rails of various types.
All excellent.
Never had a problem fitting accessories on them (TD VFGs, Surefire X300, etc.) and they mount solidly.

What free float rail are you routinely removing for "maintenance"?
They should not need to be removed.
How do you remove the rail on something like an LMT MRP?

If you want to remove something that is loctited, use a heat gun.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 7:28:52 AM EDT
I have three of gen 2 SS rails.  Two of mine have come loose during recoil and the lock-tite does fix them, both on non 5.56 calibers.  I ruined one rail by over tightening the clamp screws trying to get it to stay in place which MI replaced NQA.  I also had a plastic rail section split at 30 inch-pounds and MI sent me out a new set of steel ones (not just a single replacement, an entire set) which they had to scrounge up since they do not make them anymore.  So nobody, I mean nobody can complain about MI's customer service.  Perfect their product may not be but they will stand behind it 100% so if you cannot live with it, they will make it right by you.
 But, two of my forends did walk under recoil and I do remove my rails fairly often because I never leave anything alone for long.  People don't like that, tough.  I remove my rails. They are my rails and I will remove them if I want.  Using Blue or Green Lock-Tite the rails do not walk and they do not require heat to remove them.  Just loosen the screws and take them out then twist.  They come off easily but do not move under the .30 HRT or the .458 SOCOM any more.  I do not think the forend is perfect because it will slip if you have more recoil than the 5.56 and I do not like the current plastic rail sections, and it may be that Lock-Tite is a bandaid fix to the slipping problems, but sometimes a band-aid is all that is needed.  Will I buy another, you bet I will.  They are light weight, more than strong enough for anything I will ever use them for and as far as mil-spec is concerned, I could not care less if they are or not.  Everything thing I have tried to put on them has fit with no problem what so ever.  I am on a waiting list for my 4th and so far as I am concerned the forend is a fine forend and will serve you well for many years.  I have no reservations recommending them or using them.  So what if you have to put a drop or two of lock-tite on it to keep it from shifting?  You have to put blue lock-tite on scope rings too to keep them from loosening and nobody will say that your scope rings are inferior for using lock-tite on them.  
I get so sick of this fan boy stuff that if you say anything negative at all you are flamed, especially if you say anything about a flavor of the month.  And then there are those that chime in on every thread to trash whatever company it is because it is not their chose company.  "You have crap because you didn't buy XXXX."  IMO those people are ruining ARFCOM.  Everyone turns out a less than perfect product once in a while. The Gen II SS may not be perfect but it is pretty darned good.  That slipping problem on anything with more recoil than 5.56 is less than ideal but the lock-tite does fix it.  What else does one want?  If that had been put in the directions from the get-go nobody would be calling it a half-assed fix, they would think it was designed that way.  
My TROY Alpha rail is a whole lot more of a PITA to put on than the MI. Those damned clamps never want to say put without twisting while tightening.  Too tight and they won't slip over the nut.  Too loose and they fall off, just right and they still twist and you need to hold them in place while you tighten them. And you need to, what's this you say, put LOCK-TITE on the screws to keep them from vibrating loose.  Does that mean the TROY Alpha rail is half-assed too?  You have to band-aid the screws with lock-tite to keep them from backing off?  Frankly I do not yet trust the TROY tri-clamp method of holding the rail on at all.  Maybe over time I will but right now, after just a few months use, I still don't trust those screwy clamp screws.  I'd much rather have the MI type system even if it is not as clean looking and you have to, God forbid, use lock-tite on the exterior of the barrel nut.  Even TROY has this less than perfect as far as I am concerned but God forbid you say anything negative about any TROY product.  They are only slightly behind LaRue as being untouchable unless you just want to kiss the ring.  
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 7:50:19 AM EDT
I think if MI changed their barrel nut design to have grooves in it where the bolts go through like the diomandhead here it would a much better system. The grooves would mechanically prevent any forward slippage of the forearm versus just friction.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 7:53:25 AM EDT
I love my MI rail that thing is solid I have used And abused it and it is still holding strong.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:51:26 AM EDT
I have the 12" gen2 t-series no loctite and no issues.. everyones results vary..
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 10:00:15 AM EDT
I never had any issues with my MI rails. I think they make good equipment.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 5:25:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I think if MI changed their barrel nut design to have grooves in it where the bolts go through like the diomandhead here it would a much better system. The grooves would mechanically prevent any forward slippage of the forearm versus just friction.


^ This. I like my MI rail but a nut with grooves would make it perfect.
Top Top