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Posted: 7/30/2010 2:32:28 AM EDT
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Deployed ACOG Problem - need help!
email from the deployed son when I offerred to upgrade the sights on his issue carbine: "we got acog's, but the company isnt having a special range for us to sight them in, so we have them, but we cant sight them in" Is there any way to sight them in without a range, like the laser pointers you can use with traditional scopes? |
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Quoted: There is a laser boresighter in the system the LBS 010. However zeros obtained with it are dubious at best. When he says special range what does he mean? You can establish a rough zero on a standard zeroing range. Though not as good as a 100m zero it works I recall there being a target (paper) in the system designed for ACOGs that require zeroing at 25M. However, there's nothing special about this. I would recommend zeroing at 50M, or at 25M and compensate so you can shoot flat out to 300m or so. |
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Quoted:
There is a laser boresighter in the system the LBS 010. However zeros obtained with it are dubious at best. When he says special range what does he mean? You can establish a rough zero on a standard zeroing range. Though not as good as a 100m zero it works What he probably means is that his unit is not taking the time to (verify) zero before heading downrange (from a main base to a smaller FOB) or something similar. A lot of units don't...imagine you just got in country and are trying to get your soldiers temporarily housed, fed, etc. and transported to final destination...and they either forgot, or don't have the time to run everyone thru the range. The range at Kandahar has 10 I think lanes...it would take days. I'm not saying I agree, just relaying what I've seen. |
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you can zero at 25m, just use the 300 meter aiming point. you can use the LBS, it will get you on paper....but a 100 meter zero is of course optimal, but like I said, you can use a standard 25 meter zero range...just make sure they use the 300 meter aim point in the reticle...this has been a huge issue since these sights got fielded. i teach the SAWO course at Ft Benning and I cant tell you how many guys use the 100 meter chevron at 25 meters if his FOB/COP does not at least have a 25m range...there is a BIG problem.
tell your son to get the best zero he can at 25 meters...I feel his pain, the ignorance of higher on our sights and how to zero borders on negligence |
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Quoted:
you can zero at 25m, just use the 300 meter aiming point. you can use the LBS, it will get you on paper....but a 100 meter zero is of course optimal, but like I said, you can use a standard 25 meter zero range...just make sure they use the 300 meter aim point in the reticle...this has been a huge issue since these sights got fielded. i teach the SAWO course at Ft Benning and I cant tell you how many guys use the 100 meter chevron at 25 meters if his FOB/COP does not at least have a 25m range...there is a BIG problem. tell your son to get the best zero he can at 25 meters...I feel his pain, the ignorance of higher on our sights and how to zero borders on negligence This is exactly correct, often prior to a mission al that is available is a 25 meter range at a staging area. When using the 300 meter aiming point in the reticle @ 25 meters, the standard M4 target can be used, but with the 4x ACOG the squares on the grid for a standard M4 zero target 5 CLICKS = 1 SQUARE. Also, using a white target pasty on the small 25 meter sillouette for the fine aiming point will contrast well with the reticle and allow for a more precise point of aim, thus a tighbter shot group, thus a better zero. |
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Hi OPTEMPO makes seemingly little (albeit important) things like verifying zero nearly impossible. When you're dead dog tired at the end or beginning of your mission, the last thing you want to do is shoot.
Vastness of the desert? A very high percentage of our troops are now set up in small COPs within the cities and villes...no place to shoot unless they have the space to set up a 25m ON the FOB/COP/PB. Factor in the safety requirements the Army would like to see if not require for a range and you can see the difficulties involved. |
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Quoted:
I agree. If they weren't zeroed, they wouldn't deploy with them. They'd use iron sights. He probably means they haven't verified zero since they got there. No I think he means what he said. I can tell you from seeing myself that units now days will issue out these ACOG's and call it good. I mad dam sure that I got my ACOG out and confirmend zero. While at the range I just went ahead and just rezeroed mine while we were still here in CONUS. Some of the other guy's did the same thing, when we got to Kuwait we reconfirmend again like you are supposed to do when you go someplace different. Our ever not so bright Commanders and BC decided to issue all of the ACOG's out. Well when I saw this and started asking aorund if these Soldiers had zeroed them they told me know that they were told they did not need to and that they were good to go. Well i brought this up to some senior NCO's and was told not to worry about as we did not have time to do before we deployed and we did not have time to do it now. Well that shit did not sit right with me and I kept talking to some other senior NCO's and they agreed it should have been done and needs to be done. Well to get my point accross I made sure I started the conversation right when the CSM was walking up with some of the idiots that told me not worry about. Well it did not turn out good for them when they said what they did in front of the CSM. I know they were pissed as everyone was ordered to turn in the ACOG's and then they had to redraw them and everyone had to get rotated throught the range in Tallil to get them zeroed. Hell i even talked to other soldiers from other units that had ACOG's, Aimpoint's and EOTech's that had not zeroed them. When I asked why not they told me their commanders said not to worry about it. I was even told that their C ommanders were told to issue them out and if and when they wanted to they could go to the range and zero them. They needed them issued out so they could be seen as being used, I just had this WTF look on my face and just shook my head everytime I talked to them. |
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Quoted: It's been a long time since i was in but what Ghost-1 describes sounds exactly like the Army i remember .........Quoted: I agree. If they weren't zeroed, they wouldn't deploy with them. They'd use iron sights. He probably means they haven't verified zero since they got there. No I think he means what he said. I can tell you from seeing myself that units now days will issue out these ACOG's and call it good. I mad dam sure that I got my ACOG out and confirmend zero. While at the range I just went ahead and just rezeroed mine while we were still here in CONUS. Some of the other guy's did the same thing, when we got to Kuwait we reconfirmend again like you are supposed to do when you go someplace different. Our ever not so bright Commanders and BC decided to issue all of the ACOG's out. Well when I saw this and started asking aorund if these Soldiers had zeroed them they told me know that they were told they did not need to and that they were good to go. Well i brought this up to some senior NCO's and was told not to worry about as we did not have time to do before we deployed and we did not have time to do it now. Well that shit did not sit right with me and I kept talking to some other senior NCO's and they agreed it should have been done and needs to be done. Well to get my point accross I made sure I started the conversation right when the CSM was walking up with some of the idiots that told me not worry about. Well it did not turn out good for them when they said what they did in front of the CSM. I know they were pissed as everyone was ordered to turn in the ACOG's and then they had to redraw them and everyone had to get rotated throught the range in Tallil to get them zeroed. Hell i even talked to other soldiers from other units that had ACOG's, Aimpoint's and EOTech's that had not zeroed them. When I asked why not they told me their commanders said not to worry about it. I was even told that their C ommanders were told to issue them out and if and when they wanted to they could go to the range and zero them. They needed them issued out so they could be seen as being used, I just had this WTF look on my face and just shook my head everytime I talked to them. Thanks for your service Ghost-1 and for pressing the issue. |
No problem it just pisses me off that we spend all that money for some sweet ass optic's and then no one wants to take the time to learn how to use them or does not want to take the time to use them correctly, shit we had soldiers drawing them out just to use at the range so they could see the targets better and bigger. Did it help them shoot better hell no they would just qualify and call it good, then they would take them and turn them back in to the armor. These are fobbits I am talking about mostly but what was funny was the dumb ass officers that could not go on convoy's to get where they needed to becauce they could not quailify on there assigned weapons. They would draw an ACOG slap it on their weapon and tell you that they could use it to see better and if they needed to they could shoot someone.
Marksmanship is one of the biggest things I push and will train others on all day if I could. Others like myself know from real life experiance what it means and what it takes to actually use your weapon and pull the trigger and actually see your rounds impact the target and watch and see the target go down. You learn this from day one in the military when you go through Basic Rifle Marksmanship training and others like myself take this training and keep on training regardless of what you MOS is. I am always telling my Soldier's that there is no longer what they used to call a front line war. War today is a 360 degree battle feild and one of the biggest things that needs to be learned and kept up with is how to use weapon and engage any and all threats with both iron sites and optics. |
| The 25 meter zero will mean you are a bit off, take for example the 300m aimpiont will be about 1 and half inchs off at 300 if a 25 meter zero was used to establish it. It is good enough for government work, but also the reason at the ACOG instructor certification they say to make sure you get to an actual range line to get the sight calibrated. |
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Quoted:
No problem it just pisses me off that we spend all that money for some sweet ass optic's and then no one wants to take the time to learn how to use them or does not want to take the time to use them correctly, shit we had soldiers drawing them out just to use at the range so they could see the targets better and bigger. Did it help them shoot better hell no they would just qualify and call it good, then they would take them and turn them back in to the armor. These are fobbits I am talking about mostly but what was funny was the dumb ass officers that could not go on convoy's to get where they needed to becauce they could not quailify on there assigned weapons. They would draw an ACOG slap it on their weapon and tell you that they could use it to see better and if they needed to they could shoot someone.
Marksmanship is one of the biggest things I push and will train others on all day if I could. Others like myself know from real life experiance what it means and what it takes to actually use your weapon and pull the trigger and actually see your rounds impact the target and watch and see the target go down. You learn this from day one in the military when you go through Basic Rifle Marksmanship training and others like myself take this training and keep on training regardless of what you MOS is. I am always telling my Soldier's that there is no longer what they used to call a front line war. War today is a 360 degree battle feild and one of the biggest things that needs to be learned and kept up with is how to use weapon and engage any and all threats with both iron sites and optics. I'm with you 100% on this...it is a huge problem today..these kids and COCs have no idea about what they have....and it pisses me off I love the old "oh...they all have scopes..now they all can shoot" attitude of units, I have seen the ACOG make a soldier shoot worse because he has a 1500$ optic he cant figure out. oh and alot of the marksmanship courses here at Benning are going away. |
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I'm with you 100% on this...it is a huge problem today..these kids and COCs have no idea about what they have....and it pisses me off
I love the old "oh...they all have scopes..now they all can shoot" attitude of units, I have seen the ACOG make a soldier shoot worse because he has a 1500$ optic he cant figure out. oh and alot of the marksmanship courses here at Benning are going away. Yeah I see all the time and and just don't understand it. I guess Benning it thinking the same thing like (wow we have all of this gear that is supposed to make it easy for soldiers to shoot and hit their target) in reality it is not helping them. Soldiers today seem to think if they have a optic they can just slap it on and go shoot the bad guy's and they will hit them, a lot of them today do not understand the BRM and do not realize they need to learn how to use and become compatant with their iron sites before they start using optic's. I guess they think their optic will never fail so they do not need to learn the basic's.
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Quoted:
I'm with you 100% on this...it is a huge problem today..these kids and COCs have no idea about what they have....and it pisses me off
I love the old "oh...they all have scopes..now they all can shoot" attitude of units, I have seen the ACOG make a soldier shoot worse because he has a 1500$ optic he cant figure out. oh and alot of the marksmanship courses here at Benning are going away. Yeah I see all the time and and just don't understand it. I guess Benning it thinking the same thing like (wow we have all of this gear that is supposed to make it easy for soldiers to shoot and hit their target) in reality it is not helping them. Soldiers today seem to think if they have a optic they can just slap it on and go shoot the bad guy's and they will hit them, a lot of them today do not understand the BRM and do not realize they need to learn how to use and become compatant with their iron sites before they start using optic's. I guess they think their optic will never fail so they do not need to learn the basic's.What is your pre-deployment shooting requirement? Beyond zeroing we tend to quite a bit of shooting done prior to deploying and now that they have to shoot on the qualification range with their RCOs, most are getting to understand how the scope works. |
| it really depends on the unit..some commanders "get it" they get as much ammo and range time as possible....others, sadly do not. an example is the last line unit (1-87 10 mountain) I was in we deployed with your mix of M68s and TA31 ACOGs, about 5 months into the tour and flush with GWOT cash, the unit ordered new ACOGs, the ones with Doc optics piggybacked on them, they did not have the chevron reticle we had managed to train the soldiers on before and used for the past 5 months, these had the stadia reticle that only a few of us understood..did we have a 100 meter range to zero it at? NO did we have time to get a proper zero? NO, but god knows every swinging dick in 1-87 had to have the hot new ACOG, it was a disaster, and if the junior leadership made any noise about it, you told to shut the %uck up. that is one of many stories from the line, if you are in a unit that understands the need to familiarize with these things, thats great..if not well you are not alone |
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it really depends on the unit..some commanders "get it" they get as much ammo and range time as possible....others, sadly do not. an example is the last line unit (1-87 10 mountain) I was in we deployed with your mix of M68s and TA31 ACOGs, about 5 months into the tour and flush with GWOT cash, the unit ordered new ACOGs, the ones with Doc optics piggybacked on them, they did not have the chevron reticle we had managed to train the soldiers on before and used for the past 5 months, these had the stadia reticle that only a few of us understood..did we have a 100 meter range to zero it at? NO did we have time to get a proper zero? NO, but god knows every swinging dick in 1-87 had to have the hot new ACOG, it was a disaster, and if the junior leadership made any noise about it, you told to shut the %uck up. that is one of many stories from the line, if you are in a unit that understands the need to familiarize with these things, thats great..if not well you are not alone Oh I can agree with this 100%. With us we would send people to the range just to zero and qual, hell most could hardley zero mush less qual all the commanders wanted was to see the number of qualified people go up no matter how long they had to keep going back to do it. The guys like myself that showed up to the range to zero both irons and optics were told that we had to hurry up and get it done no matter what and if they had time then we could zero our optics. Well I pulled all of my guys off the range and went and talked to the land and ranges NCO. I explained what was going on and what needed to be done, he in turn got me the known distance range and a quail range. I took my guys out and we zeroed irons first and then ACOGs from the 100m mark. We then walked next door and hit the qual range and was done in a couple of hours. Everyone one of my guys including all shot expert both with irons and then again with our ACOGs. When others found out what I had done they all wanted optics and stuff when we told them what they would have to do the commander did not want to do it as it would take to much time. When we got to Iraq I could not beleive what I was seeing they were being issued optic from CCO's to ACOGs with out zeroing or anything. When I made a big issue out of I was basicaly told to STFU, when the CSM found out what was going on he took care of it and made sure that they people rotated throught the range to zero their optics. We still had people that did not do it the right way as they just did not care and just wanted to look cool with it. |
| unreal. glad the CSM got it, people get KILLED over jacked up zeroes. zeroing ACOGs on the KD at 100 is great..I got to do it in the LRM course the ACOG is a great piece of gear. I love how after we pitch to some leaders, they go back to a CCO...guess looking cool doesn't matter too much after you realize you have no idea how the sight works |
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