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4/1/2020 4:14:10 PM
4/1/2020 6:58:51 AM
Posted: 1/6/2005 11:38:31 AM EDT
I went to the place I normally buy firearms after the ban ended to pick up an M4.  It had been about a year since I had visited this shop and the last time I was there I had bought a bushmaster carbine.  Anyway I got their and the only brand they sold was dmps.  (the stated reason being that bushmaster's customer service was poor and they where tired of dealing with them)I asked to see one and after feeling it out felt that it was kind of cheap feeling.  Whats the overall opinion of them? I ended up buying a kimber instead and have since purchased a bushmaster m4 but was wondering If I had misjudged.  Thoughts?
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:46:09 AM EDT
Sounds like you came to the same conclusion that I did.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:54:15 AM EDT
I have several DPMS rifles, uppers, lowers, and parts - zero problems with any of them.  YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:59:58 AM EDT
Me too.

Oh, sure, anybody will have a preferance, though polls on this site indicate that all AR's are pretty much the same.  If the rifle you bought meets spec, and has good fit and finnish, and you're as happy with your DPMS as mine, we may count ourselves as happy!

~P.S. I've ordered "extras" from DPMS, and their customer service is excellent.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:02:24 PM EDT
i bought a bolt and carrier a while back and it look like they pounded it out of cold steel with rocks- the machining was horrible- so i sent it back and they gave my money back. no biggie
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:07:04 PM EDT
Their quality control is better than your spelling.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:42:11 PM EDT
I have had ZERO problems with my DPMS.
It is solid and shoots great.
II have had problems with my OLY and my BUSHY.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:46:51 PM EDT

Their quality control is better than your spelling.

Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:50:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2005 12:50:58 PM EDT by Dog1]
I have had so-so luck with DPMS...there are IMO, better parts, lowers and uppers out there for less...but hey, it's my opinion..

I'll just be glad when Brownell's starts carry more than just DPMS....
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 12:59:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trent0341:
I went to the place I normally buy firearms after the ban ended to pick up an M4.  It had been about a year since I had visited this shop and the last time I was there I had bought a bushmaster carbine.  Anyway I got their and the only brand they sold was dmps.  (the stated reason being that bushmaster's customer service was poor and they where tired of dealing with them)I asked to see one and after feeling it out felt that it was kind of cheap feeling.  Whats the overall opinion of them? I ended up buying a kimber instead and have since purchased a bushmaster m4 but was wondering If I had misjudged.  Thoughts?


You made the right choice going with a Bushmaster.  DPMS does not make very good parts.  I have had bad experiences with their parts more than once.  I  stay away from their stuff period.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 1:09:07 PM EDT
I have nothing but good things to say about DPMS.  I have had one for over two years.  As I have said before on this board many times if you look at the cost vs quality it's hard to beat them.  Granted, they are not top shelf and I wouldn't use it to defend my life on a regular basis but they make great range rifles and plinkers.  Great rifle to get the fever started.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 1:12:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2005 1:13:49 PM EDT by CB1]
I love their fire control group in the blaster packs... it was much smoother than the set I replaced. Another plus is that the DMPS hammer is not cut with that stupid notch. (I don't know if other venders use the non-notched hammer)
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 1:35:02 PM EDT
My DMPS rifles have functioned better than my Bushys.  Maybe it was luck, but not likely...  
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 2:11:45 PM EDT
I have a DPMS A2 that has been awesome.  Bought it used and it ran like a champ.  Shoots great too.   Under 1" with reloads, under .7" with the right reloads.  I haven't had a "they suck" issue yet so I can't steer you away.  There is some grumbling lately about bolts and carriers being shotty but I have no direct experiance with that.

People shit on them alot, but lots of those folks haven't owned one.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 3:12:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2005 6:18:37 PM EDT by Variablebinary]
DPMS makes fine stuff. My allegedy much better Bushy failed before my Oly and DPMS, depsite being the "better rifle" and more expensive

Never take advice from anyone with a Colt or anything resembling a horse as an avatar
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 3:18:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rusty69:
Sounds like you came to the same conclusion that I did.



Me too. It's a "budget" gun for a reason.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 3:29:53 PM EDT
Mine is PERFECT!!!
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 10:53:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lexington:

Originally Posted By Rusty69:
Sounds like you came to the same conclusion that I did.



Me too. It's a "budget" gun for a reason.



Budget? Or maybe Colt overcharges for something that doesn’t do much of anything better enough to justify the inflated expense. The latter is more likely. I even consider Bushmaster over priced after my experience with their 20" A3.

My Oly CAR97-M4 has proven itself above and beyond my Bushy and it was a so called budget rifle.  The Colt crowd that creates this elitist attitude on this forum is surreal. You can tell them hands down that your “budget rifle” outperformed a “premium rifle”, recount all your experiences and they will still tell you your wrong. Unbelievable
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:03:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2005 11:14:58 PM EDT by Cato]
You had good judgement. Avoid DPMS for a M4gery intended for serious purposes.
Pat Rogers - the "Yoda" of combat carbine training- as well as some other knowledgeable
gunsmiths & trainers have reported troubles with improperly hardened parts, fractured
bolts and tight chambers. They recommend Colt & Bushmaster. Enough said.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:05:17 PM EDT
I ordered an A2 Panther Classic, Chrome lined with a spare forged lower reciever to build a .22 on. I'm not worried about it, if it gets here and it has any problems i know DPMS will take care of it. I'll be able to comment more when it arrives.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:09:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cato:
Pat Rogers - the Yoda of combat carbine training- has reported troubles
with improperly hardened parts, fractured bolts and tight chambers. Enough said.
Avoid DPMS for a M4gery, but IMHO they will serve for a sporting rifle.



I have a couple of buddies that are home Iraq and they say their Colt A2 rifles were problematic. So does that mean all Colts are  problematic....Enough said
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:10:19 PM EDT
I hope they are good.  My department's going to buy 5 full auto for the tac team and i am going to get one. I can't wait.  I just hope they are not POS.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:19:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
they say their Colt A2 rifles were problematic.



I don't want to defend Colt, but do you trust in your buddies diagnose
abilities? I certainly trust Pat Rogers that he is able to tell if its a
production problem or a maintenance one. It is sad to say, but even
in the professional US Army there are armorers who shouldn't be there.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 12:57:36 AM EDT
My only experience with DPMS is a couple of ambi safties I bought.  They seem to match perfectly with my stag arms lower and RRA lower parts kit.  They also function very smoothly.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 10:55:40 AM EDT
I own one DPMS lower and two uppers.  I also own colts and bushmasters.  I have had no problems with the DPMS and would buy another if i were shopping.  ONe of the uppers is a super bull barrel .223 i use it for varmit hunting and target shooting.  with hand loads i consistantly shoot 5 shot groups of 5/8 to 3/4 MOA at 100 yards.  I find that very acceptable from a stock out of box simi auto.  I am shooting 50 grain nos. bullets, IMR 4895 powder full lenght sized no crimp.  
I would recommend a bushmaster as well but I have found their customer service very poor.  As an FFL dealer i stopped buying from Bushmaster for CS reasons.  DPMS CS has been very helpful and all purchases has been exactly as agreed.

hope my input has helped
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 11:03:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
...., though polls on this site indicate that all AR's are pretty much the same.  .....



Judging rifles by polls...

People who use them (especially under conditions other than pristine ranges) will tell you there is a pecking order for rifles when reliability/durablity are key (in which DPMS come out rather poorly).

People who shoot for precision also have a pecking order (in which DPMS comes out very well)./

However if all you do is go to the local range, shoot some paper targets then you won't notice any differences as the systems are not being pushed to the limit.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 11:09:18 AM EDT
I know a guy with 2 DPMS rifles. He has had good luck with them. They are pre-1994 also. Nothing but good things to say about them.

I vote RRA....but thats just me.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 11:31:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
...., though polls on this site indicate that all AR's are pretty much the same.  .....



Judging rifles by polls...

People who use them (especially under conditions other than pristine ranges) will tell you there is a pecking order for rifles when reliability/durablity are key (in which DPMS come out rather poorly).

People who shoot for precision also have a pecking order (in which DPMS comes out very well)./

However if all you do is go to the local range, shoot some paper targets then you won't notice any differences as the systems are not being pushed to the limit.



The only people who subject their rifles to enough stress to expose reliability and durability issues are soldiers and they dont have a choice as to what they get. Even the most hardened LEO,  functions under pristine conditions. I know people on this site love to pretend they are operaters, but 95% are not.

Doesnt matter if you punch paper, or hunt or compete, or patrol the hood, you still get to go home at night to a nice warm bed and cleaning supplies for your weapon.

It's all preference and what you are willing to pay, and because you pay more doesnt mean you are getting a better rifle
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 11:40:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
The only people who subject their rifles to enough stress to expose reliability and durability issues are soldiers


A completely untrue statement.

I know of non DOD govenmental groups that get to choose their rifles and play with them in the Sandbox...

You can also give them a very good workout at places like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and Blackwater  where you can burn more ammo in a day under dusty conditions than many soldiers.  The instructors there will tell you which rifles they see fail under those conditions and which are better (hint DPMS does not come out well).



but 95% are not.

You are correct - but lets hear from one of the REAL operators shall we?

Quote from Pat Rogers:

"Colt continues to be the most efficient of the AR's. Of the remainder, Bushmaster may be a distant second. When you get one that works, it runs great, but many don't. DPMS is very spotty, and we see things like bolts fracturing at the cam pin hole. Of the others, a good one may squeak through, but i'd be hard pressed to see a pattern."


Another from Giles Stock:

My carbine says Colt on the side

And I did ask that one myself - as did Fight4YourRights - we also got him to grudgingly admit if he couldn't get a Colt, he'd probably go for a Bushmaster.


and because you pay more doesnt mean you are getting a better rifle

That has not been my experience in life.  Generally you do - if you are a smart consumer and do the research.

There are reasons why that Mercedes costs more than the Chevy, just as there are reasons why Colt costs more than a DPMS.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 12:13:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
The only people who subject their rifles to enough stress to expose reliability and durability issues are soldiers


A completely untrue statement.

I know of non DOD govenmental groups that get to choose their rifles and play with them in the Sandbox...

You can also give them a very good workout at places like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and Blackwater  where you can burn more ammo in a day under dusty conditions than many soldiers.  The instructors there will tell you which rifles they see fail under those conditions and which are better (hint DPMS does not come out well).



but 95% are not.

You are correct - but lets hear from one of the REAL operators shall we?

Quote from Pat Rogers:

"Colt continues to be the most efficient of the AR's. Of the remainder, Bushmaster may be a distant second. When you get one that works, it runs great, but many don't. DPMS is very spotty, and we see things like bolts fracturing at the cam pin hole. Of the others, a good one may squeak through, but i'd be hard pressed to see a pattern."


Another from Giles Stock:

My carbine says Colt on the side

And I did ask that one myself - as did Fight4YourRights - we also got him to grudgingly admit if he couldn't get a Colt, he'd probably go for a Bushmaster.


and because you pay more doesnt mean you are getting a better rifle

That has not been my experience in life.  Generally you do - if you are a smart consumer and do the research.

There are reasons why that Mercedes costs more than the Chevy, just as there are reasons why Colt costs more than a DPMS.



I dont know about a Chevy, but I'd put my TSX against any Merc and it didnt cost as much. And I paid more for my Bushy and it gave me problems, yet...there must be a reason that the Bushy cost more.

One day someone has to arrange an AR15 gathering with every brand going blow for blow in stress tests and things of the like so we can finally get to the bottom of the brand crap that lingers in this forum.



Link Posted: 1/7/2005 12:59:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 1:17:50 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
One day someone has to arrange an AR15 gathering with every brand going blow for blow in stress tests and things of the like so we can finally get to the bottom of the brand crap that lingers in this forum.



Yeah it's not like Gunsite, Pat Rogers or Giles Stock don't see many ARs .

BTW There have been large AR gatherings (here in MD and a nice competition that used to be held regularly in VA).

Wanna guess which rifles consistantly ran well and which ones always seemed to have the issues...
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 1:08:38 PM EDT
Whoa!  Forest's first post seemed (to me, anyway) to defend DPMS as much/more than criticize.  How did this turn into a slugfest?...
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 1:29:15 PM EDT
I have read a few posts from he
With regards to the history of the AR-15/M-16 series of rifles, COLT is the first and everyone else is a copy, NO DOUBT.  Colt has been copied in their product lines since the beginning.   Colt also has a higher quality control on their parts, systems, and magazines.  Far and away better than the other companies.   I am not saying Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA or others are not good companies or make crappy guns.   Far from it.   If you have their products and they work for you, wonderful, glad to hear it, super.   I use Colt everyday and carried a Colt in the U.S. Air Force when they first came out.   (Both the M16 and M16A1)   I used to think they were all the same, but no more.   Colt's are on top of the pile and will stay there until the other companies address many various issues with quality control, mostly due to cost savings.

By the way, I own both DPMS, Colt, and PWA rifles.  
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 1:45:39 PM EDT
COLT is the first and everyone else is a copy, NO DOUBT, but AR stands for armalite...go figure
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 1:59:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 2:01:00 PM EDT by M11293]
I believe that FN makes the best in the M-16/AR-15 series.

But we can't own FN rifles.  So LMT wins!  
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 2:29:01 PM EDT
Hey Variablebinaryh.gif, what part of "With regards to the history of the AR-15/M-16 series of rifles......" did you not get ?   Maybe you should get your armchair adjusted........
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:11:46 PM EDT
It had a cheap feel to it? I think that is funny. I have had DPMS and Oly rifles and several friends have Colt and Bushmaster rifles and they ALL pretty much felt the same. No one particular rifle  felt any better than the others. I know if the product isn't up to your standard DPMS will take care of the problem ASAP. You will be lucky to talk to Bushmaster and then after they tell you something beleiving it is another story.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:44:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spooky11:
It had a cheap feel to it? I think that is funny. I have had DPMS and Oly rifles and several friends have Colt and Bushmaster rifles and they ALL pretty much felt the same. No one particular rifle  felt any better than the others. I know if the product isn't up to your standard DPMS will take care of the problem ASAP. You will be lucky to talk to Bushmaster and then after they tell you something beleiving it is another story.



I bet if you blindfolded someone and handed them a Colt and DPMS they wouldnt know the difference unless they felt the Logo. Likewise, if you were to cover the logo and tell them shoot to all day and night they couldnt tell the difference either. I'm sure someone and chime in how they can, but I doubt it

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 7:22:55 PM EDT
There FP retaining clips suck.. Not even close to fitting...In fact you cant even make them fit w/o filing them.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 3:47:22 AM EDT

I bet if you blindfolded someone and handed them a Colt and DPMS they wouldnt know the difference unless they felt the Logo. Likewise, if you were to cover the logo and tell them shoot to all day and night they couldnt tell the difference either. I'm sure someone and chime in how they can, but I doubt it


I'll take your bet.
Variable, Do you handle AR's/M16/M4's much?  Not trying to insult just wondering.  I've carried a col m16a2 or m4a3 for the last eight or so years.  In that time I've also owned two bushmasters.   Not a long time compared to some of you but I guarantee that I could tell the difference between the two simply by pulling the charging handle back or by sliding the stock up and down.  (If they all felt the same as the one I handled when I went to the gun shop).  Wouldn't even be semi difficult.  I think I could take a pretty good stab at the same test with a bushmaster although I'd have a harder time.

Thanks for the reponses
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 9:58:16 AM EDT
I maintain all our patrol rifles and they are all DPMS.  Zero problems, Zero breakage in 5 years.  These are all LEO's marked 5.56X1-9. I cant vouch for the commercial guns.  My personal DPMS came out of the box and took a trip to instructor school. 1500 rounds later no stoppages, no jams and a 100% score on qual.   \
Nuff' Said
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:54:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By spooky11:
It had a cheap feel to it? I think that is funny. I have had DPMS and Oly rifles and several friends have Colt and Bushmaster rifles and they ALL pretty much felt the same. No one particular rifle  felt any better than the others. I know if the product isn't up to your standard DPMS will take care of the problem ASAP. You will be lucky to talk to Bushmaster and then after they tell you something beleiving it is another story.



I bet if you blindfolded someone and handed them a Colt and DPMS they wouldnt know the difference unless they felt the Logo. Likewise, if you were to cover the logo and tell them shoot to all day and night they couldnt tell the difference either. I'm sure someone and chime in how they can, but I doubt it




Well, from all the Colt's I have handled felt loose fit and not the finish didn't look as rich and deep as the DPMS.  I do not know about reliablility, but I think Colt will win in that.  My DPMS upper fitted nicely to my DPMS lower with little or no movement between the receivers.  DPMS rifles feel better IMHO; also do not have that extremely aggravating sproing sound when you let the bolt fly.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:55:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 11:56:29 AM EDT by M11293]

Originally Posted By Forest:
There are reasons why that Mercedes costs more than the Chevy, just as there are reasons why Colt costs more than a DPMS.



A lot of the cost is the "dancing gay pony" on the side, but also from reliability.  The statement in quotes is from Mongoo.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:17:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cato:
You had good judgement. Avoid DPMS for a M4gery intended for serious purposes.
Pat Rogers - the "Yoda" of combat carbine training- as well as some other knowledgeable
gunsmiths & trainers have reported troubles with improperly hardened parts, fractured
bolts and tight chambers. They recommend Colt & Bushmaster. Enough said.



Im sure they are paid for that too.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:42:37 PM EDT
I think the big difference is the customer service.... My dealer called Bushmaster for several weeks trying to get me a LEO price on a M4.  No return phone calls, no  price quote, nothing.  The only thing good that came of my dealing with Bushmaster was my determination that I was going to  build my own lower and have my upper completed by a custom builder.  "What a gun!!!"   Thanks Bushmaster.
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