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Posted: 3/12/2005 7:46:18 AM EST
How much better are colt bolts than non-colt bolts? I have two rifles I shoot now that do not have colt bolts, and I am in the process of building two more rifles that I will be needing bolts for. I am concerned about the frequency of bolt failures and what kind of damage results. Is it just damage to the firearm or is personal injury likely.

What I really need to decide is, are colt bolts worth the premium price?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 9:37:44 AM EST
I don't think bolt failure damages the rifle or the shooter. Other than collecting I think Colt parts are waaaay over rated.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 9:41:22 AM EST
Colt bolt's are worth the money if it's your ass on the line.

Otherwise, buy a spare.

Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 12:48:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 4:21:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?



That number appears in government service, and is reccomended for defensive rifles by some of the better carbine instuctors.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:56:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 9:33:12 PM EST by Va_Dinger]
The only bolt I have ever seen fail with my own eyes was a Colt. Thats why I have never placed much faith in guys who claim Colt makes "Superior" Bolts&Carriers.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 8:01:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 8:58:25 PM EST by JohnM]
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 9:48:16 PM EST
My information comes from Gunsite instructors. They like to tell stories about all the DPMS bolts that break. I have never broken a bolt myself, but then I haven't used my guns that hard for that long.

FA is especially hard on the bolts.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 10:38:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By JohnM:
Well I guess if you had tens of millions of your marked product being used someone should see some failures. What do you think the percentages might be? Maybe point zero zero zero something. Yeah. Thats a failure rate to get dinged on.

BM bolts are a good bargin and are MP'd. I have a hard time buying Colt bolts even at dealer pricing.

JohnM at Home



JohnM, Bushmaster does not MPI every bolt they make. They MPI several per batch. Colt MPI's every bolt.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 1:57:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 2:01:21 AM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By JohnM:
Well I guess if you had tens of millions of your marked product being used someone should see some failures. What do you think the percentages might be? Maybe point zero zero zero something. Yeah. Thats a failure rate to get dinged on.

BM bolts are a good bargin and are MP'd. I have a hard time buying Colt bolts even at dealer pricing.

JohnM at Home



JohnM, Bushmaster does not MPI every bolt they make. They MPI several per batch. Colt MPI's every bolt.



Actually, BM only MPIs the bolts for LE/Mil contracts. Any civlian sales of bolts that are MPI'ed are overruns. At least that is what I have been told. Still, I use BM nolts, as well as Colts, and have never had a problem with either and wouldn't hesitate to use a BM bolt in a defensive weapon. Admittendly, though, an MP marked Colt bolt has always given me a bit more peace of mind and I tend to get Colt bolts if they can be had at a reasonable price over any other brand. As far as DPMS bolts, I've never used them, so I can't say if they are prone to breakage as so many have said.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 3:53:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?



That number appears in government service, and is reccomended for defensive rifles by some of the better carbine instuctors.



Where in Govt.s service does the 10,000 rnd number show up? I find that hard to believe as the military doesn't keep rounds counts on the rifles.

Replace bolt when it's worn or broken....10 rounds or 10 million..whatever.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:26:23 AM EST
A friend of mine ( a real friend, not an imaginary one, or a story I heard on the internet) had an Armalite bolt break at the cam pin at 6500 rounds.

I have never broken a bolt, but I only have one gun with that many rounds through it, and it is a Colt .
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:53:32 AM EST
While nothing is perfect, Colt is the only manufacturer to proof load fire every bolt and barrel with an M197 high pressure test round, then magnaflux particle test those barrels and bolts after the high pressure round has been fired. They also shot peen every single bolt.

They are worth the money.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:12:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeremy2171:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?



That number appears in government service, and is reccomended for defensive rifles by some of the better carbine instuctors.



Where in Govt.s service does the 10,000 rnd number show up? I find that hard to believe as the military doesn't keep rounds counts on the rifles.

Replace bolt when it's worn or broken....10 rounds or 10 million..whatever.



One of the reasons for the reasons the LMT and KAC enhanced bolts were produced was the tendency off M4s and particularly M4A1s to break bolts at or around the 10k mark.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:22:51 AM EST
what makes the lmt bolt stronger? I know the ectractor is different, but I didnt know the bolt was stronger.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:44:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?



That number appears in government service, and is reccomended for defensive rifles by some of the better carbine instuctors.



Are those are the same guys that say toss mags after 50 loadings (1500) rounds ?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:05:47 AM EST
chrome1, no, these aren't the same people.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000497#000000.

There is some information on here about cracked DPMS bolts. I am very busy lately, I will track down more information when I get the chance.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 2:05:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
While nothing is perfect, Colt is the only manufacturer to proof load fire every bolt and barrel with an M197 high pressure test round, then magnaflux particle test those barrels and bolts after the high pressure round has been fired. They also shot peen every single bolt.

They are worth the money.



+1
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 2:14:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 5:35:46 PM EST by SSeric02]
So, where does one get a Colt bolt? And, what about the BC, Colt too?

Edited for SP...dang it, gets me every time!
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:05:54 PM EST
I always check the EE first.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:17:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 4:17:37 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By rockytherotty:
I always check the EE first.



I got three for around $180, with shipping from the EE. One new, one lightly used and one well used. All three have been refurbed with Wolff extractor springs, new gas rings and extractors (where needed). That sure beats the $125 price tag EACH that SAW wants.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:51:47 PM EST
I'll bump this. Someone, somewhere sells them 50 new, 35 used. I can't remember the site though.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:19:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By JohnM:
Well I guess if you had tens of millions of your marked product being used someone should see some failures. What do you think the percentages might be? Maybe point zero zero zero something. Yeah. Thats a failure rate to get dinged on.

BM bolts are a good bargin and are MP'd. I have a hard time buying Colt bolts even at dealer pricing.

JohnM at Home



JohnM, Bushmaster does not MPI every bolt they make. They MPI several per batch. Colt MPI's every bolt.



What is "MPing" on a bolt?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:43:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Spartan24:
What is "MPing" on a bolt?


MPing is magnaflux particle testing and proof load firing. More specifically, the proof load firing comes first, and the manafluxing comes after.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:52:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I'll bump this. Someone, somewhere sells them 50 new, 35 used. I can't remember the site though.



This place used to have very good prices on bolts, but I don't see them listed separately anymore.

www.autoweapons.com
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:07:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:32:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Jeremy2171:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Replace at 10,000 rounds, or when they break.



What brought you to this number?



That number appears in government service, and is reccomended for defensive rifles by some of the better carbine instuctors.



Where in Govt.s service does the 10,000 rnd number show up? I find that hard to believe as the military doesn't keep rounds counts on the rifles.

Replace bolt when it's worn or broken....10 rounds or 10 million..whatever.



One of the reasons for the reasons the LMT and KAC enhanced bolts were produced was the tendency off M4s and particularly M4A1s to break bolts at or around the 10k mark.



Must be an Army problem as we in the Marines don't seem to break bolts..nor do we worry about keeping track of rounds fired.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:28:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 11:30:33 PM EST by Combat_Jack]
Shadowblade, you're thinking of Professional Ordnance.

Jeremy, thats because you use an M16A2, which is much easier on bolts than the M4, which in turn is much easier on bolts than the M4A1.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:32:27 PM EST
Actually we use A2s, A4s and M4s (in small numbers).
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:00:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar_mcadams:
what makes the lmt bolt stronger? I know the ectractor is different, but I didnt know the bolt was stronger.

Not stronger, it has a slightly different design with a larger area at teh rear so that it allows more time for the chamber pressure to drop before it starts trying to unlock.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:13:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jeremy2171:
Actually we use A2s, A4s and M4s (in small numbers).



Yeah, I know. The Colt A2s are being replaced with A4s, which I am told are mostly FNs, and a very few are issued the M4 carbine.

The point is, the 20 inch guns are much, much easier on bolts than the shorties.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:17:13 PM EST
I've known 3 people to use LMT bolts. All three switched back to a AR/M16 bolt. One of them is a member here.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:49:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 5:48:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 2:03:31 PM EST by wyv3rn]
Very interesting information JohnM! Thank you for sharing. I know KAC also has a redesigned bolt. You stated LMT has the contract to PRODUCE this new enhanced bolt NSWC Crane is using, but is it LMT's enhanced bolt design that was adopted or are they producing someone else's design?

Edited to clear up my previously horribly stated question.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 8:14:58 AM EST
yes, good info, thnks JonhM
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 8:27:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 8:28:20 AM EST by JaketheSnakeOO7]
well although I have just recently with in the last 3 years started collecting ARs my dad bought me a Match Target Govt Colt Hbar AR (Post AWB) when I was young about 5 or 6 years old. Now I own ARs from Bushmaster, RR, Olympic Arms, and Colt. And I can honestly say not one matches the quality of the colt by a long shot.

If you own one (colt) you'll understand.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 8:51:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shadowblade:
Another company I always forget the name of... Bushmaster bought the Carbon 15 from them... The name escapes me every time. They were the worst though.



Proffesional Ordanence of Lake Haversu, AZ.

Yes they did have bolt issues....
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 9:04:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By JaketheSnakeOO7:

If you own one (colt) you'll understand.



I do but I don't...
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 1:30:19 PM EST
then you must be
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 1:58:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 1:59:50 PM EST by wyv3rn]
LMT supposedly MP's all their bolts (standard and enhanced), what seems to be the consensus on this these days? As I remember it was something like this:

No, they are not MP'd. They are not marked. Why the hell would they go through the cost of MPing any not spend a few cents marking them?

Yes they do because they said they have to from a liability standpoint. Karl Lewis personally stated this to Pat Rodgers, would he dare lie to such a well-known figure?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 2:19:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By JaketheSnakeOO7:
then you must be



Either that or you're .
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:14:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
While nothing is perfect, Colt is the only manufacturer to proof load fire every bolt and barrel with an M197 high pressure test round, then magnaflux particle test those barrels and bolts after the high pressure round has been fired. They also shot peen every single bolt.

They are worth the money.




And properly heat treated and stress relieved as well.

Check the EE. Last NIB I got was around 50 bucks.

Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:44:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 3:46:41 PM EST by JaketheSnakeOO7]

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnakeOO7:
then you must be



Either that or you're .



OK................ . . . . maybe just a little, But Trust Me you my Friend are much more than I am ! LOL

All I can say it that all my colt internals trigger, bolt, charge handle, safety, etc are much more smoother in operation that any stock Bushy, or other brand I own. But as long as your gun functions well whats there to bitch about right?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:54:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:
I've known 3 people to use LMT bolts. All three switched back to a AR/M16 bolt. One of them is a member here.



An LMT is and AR/M16 bolt. Are you reffering to the enanced bolt?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:54:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 4:58:30 PM EST by Henny]

Originally Posted By rockytherotty:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
While nothing is perfect, Colt is the only manufacturer to proof load fire every bolt and barrel with an M197 high pressure test round, then magnaflux particle test those barrels and bolts after the high pressure round has been fired. They also shot peen every single bolt.

They are worth the money.



+1



I had a Colt LE armorer tell me that Colt only tests every one of their LE/Military weapons. They only do one out of every 100 of the non LE/Military weapons.

ETA: This information was related to me a year and a half ago. Perhaps Colt changed their procedure since then?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:56:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 4:56:54 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By Henny:
I had a Colt LE armorer tell me that Colt only tests every one of their LE/Military weapons. They only do one out of every 100 of the non LE/Military weapons.





If THAT is true.....................................................
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 5:39:04 AM EST
The best price I have seen on a colt bolt and carrier is $120 from CDNN, but they are never in stock. Im just waiting for them to get in stock. I also saw that they have rebuilt carriers with new bolts at www.autoweapons.com

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:08:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
I've known 3 people to use LMT bolts. All three switched back to a AR/M16 bolt. One of them is a member here.



An LMT is and AR/M16 bolt. Are you reffering to the enanced bolt?



Yes LMT enhanced. All 3 switched back the original design. Just wanted you to understand that correctly. One of them is a well know member here with a 10.5" M16.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:14:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 7:16:04 AM EST by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By Henny:

Originally Posted By rockytherotty:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
While nothing is perfect, Colt is the only manufacturer to proof load fire every bolt and barrel with an M197 high pressure test round, then magnaflux particle test those barrels and bolts after the high pressure round has been fired. They also shot peen every single bolt.

They are worth the money.



+1



I had a Colt LE armorer tell me that Colt only tests every one of their LE/Military weapons. They only do one out of every 100 of the non LE/Military weapons.

ETA: This information was related to me a year and a half ago. Perhaps Colt changed their procedure since then?


No, the armorer is incorrect. One of my coworkers/friends at Sig used to work for Colt's QA dept, and I've visited him more than once at work before he left Colt to move north and work with us.

When a Colt bolt is made and tested the people doing the work have no idea where that bolt is going to end up. It could end up in a DoD M4 or M16A4, a police 6721, or a civvie Match Target. They are all subject to the same testing. DoD bolts are date stamped, but only after the testing is done.

The reason I don't put much faith in what many some LE armorers say is that I work with one of the guys who used to proof Colt parts for a living. It's not something I heard at the range, overheard at a gunstore, read in a gun rag, or saw on the Internet. These words are straight from the horse's mouth.

Please understand that I'm not throwing stones at you Henny. Clearly you are passing along infomation in good faith heard from someone who *should* be in the know.

This is also the reason why I put so much faith in Colt parts over other brands, and also why I am a frequent defender of Colt's politics.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 5:53:16 PM EST
No offense taken CJan_NH, I have two Colt's myself, and I'm glad to hear this!
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