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Posted: 9/28/2005 12:12:14 AM EDT
Here is an old article from Colt's website for suing HK and Bushmaster. Really when you read it you get the idea of how much Colt sucks. Sure they have a rifle that they subcontract most of the parts for then want complete rights to all M4 type rifles. Probably because they are losing their ass since they have decided to self regulate their sales to civilians. Not to mention they never produced Mil-Spec anything for the civilian market because they self regulated oversized pins, take down parts- you know the drill. I sold all my Colts because they don't care about us, the American consumer in any form and want to sue anyone who produces anything that comes close to their subcontracted mismash of parts they throw together. Give me a break- why won't they go after LMT, CMT etc. for making M4's because these companies only sells uppers and lowers to civilians and besides why would they want to sue the company that makes the actual stuff for them. Honestly I'm sick of people with their elitest attitude of Colt ownership when in reality they support a company that treats us like shit. You know what I say? Fuck Em'- I hope they go under. I'll keep my LMT without their logo's and it is mil-spec. My Bushy's might not have M4 feedramps or magnetic particle BS testing but they run the same. Just glad I sold my Colt to some idiot that would actually pay more for something because of a logo when a REAL mil spec LMT is a lot less.

Just my .02- read the article, then think of your mismatched, non-mil spec Colt junk you bought over the years with their oversize pins, sear blocks, and whatever else BS they tried to pull on us to a point they were going after dealers for having the audacity of selling their products to the American consumer. If you defend Colt , their practices, their ethics, their BS then you probably deserve it. Good luck- and go ahead and pay $350+ for a new barrel from the elitest bastards- why because they can and they don't give two shits about us in any form.

Fuck Colt.

Rant is done. Read the article. Elitest bastards.



Colt Challenges Rivals’ Illegal Marketing Practices

Connecticut-based Colt Strikes Back Against Copycat Manufacturers Bushmaster Firearms and Heckler & Koch

April 21, 2004, Hartford, Connecticut – Colt Defense LLC today filed suit against Bushmaster Firearms, Inc. and Heckler & Koch and demanded that the two companies end their illegal marketing campaigns with respect to the Colt® M4® carbine.

In its lawsuit filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Colt cited acts of trademark infringement, trade dress infringement, trademark dilution, false designation of origin, false advertising, patent infringement, unfair competition, and deceptive trade practices. Colt is seeking injunctive relief and damages against the two companies.

Colt is the leading supplier of military and law enforcement weaponry and related products to the U.S. Government and many American allies. It holds a sole source contract to exclusively supply the M4 carbine to all branches of the U.S. military. Only Colt may manufacture an authentic M4 carbine; those made by others are imitations.

The M4 carbine evolved from the most combat-proven family of weapons, the Colt-developed M16 rifle. To develop this carbine, Colt at its own expense integrated 40 years of combat experience of the M16 rifle with advances in technology. Colt then offered this carbine to the U.S. Army that subjected it to a multi-year certification process before finally accepting it for use by American troops.

"This case is about the systematic efforts of Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch to confront us, not as competitors on a level playing field, but with unlawful marketing practices that misrepresent the nature of their products and disparage the products of Colt Defense," said Colt’s President and Chief Executive Officer, Lieutenant General William M. Keys, USMC (retired).



"Colt’s products have been the mainstay of the U.S. military for over 100 years, and have played a significant role in both World Wars and the Vietnamese conflict. Today, our products are in the hands of our elite forces in Iraq. Our reputation was earned the hard way, on the battlefield. And it is our battle-tested reputation that these defendants are attempting to exploit by selling M4 knockoffs," said General Keys.

According to the complaint, both Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch are intentionally and illegally blurring the distinction between their products and the products manufactured by Colt, particularly the M4 carbine. Both Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch have developed copycat versions of the M4 to profit from Colt’s good name and reputation.

In a transparent attempt to mislead potential customers into believing that they are buying "American Made" products, Heckler & Koch, whose principal place of business is Oberndorf, Germany, falsely states that it will manufacture firearms in a plant in Georgia that does not yet exist. In fact, Heckler & Koch’s manufacturing and engineering is performed outside the country, according to the complaint.

The complaint alleges that Bushmaster, which has no legal right or authority to sell to the U.S. military, has intentionally and illegally incorporated the look and feel of the Colt M4 into its "M4 type" carbine. By duplicating the appearance of a real M4 weapon, and employing calculated marketing that blurs the distinction between Colt’s products and their own, Bushmaster deceptively markets its "M4 type" carbine to the civilian market and foreign governments, hoping that consumers will confuse the goodwill associated with the Colt brand with Bushmaster, according to the complaint.

The complaint also alleges that Bushmaster has plagiarized Colt’s M16 and M4 parts numbers. By doing so, Bushmaster intentionally misrepresents to its non-military customers that Bushmaster parts are interchangeable with Colt’s AR-15®, M16™ and M4® products – a misrepresentation that could have serious safety repercussions.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:15:10 AM EDT
LMT ain't milspec either. Bushamster is not nearly of the same quality as Colt. Sure yours works. Most do. But Colt is still a better product. I did't use to drink Colt Kool-Aid, but after owning enough cheap stuff that didn't run right, I decided only to run Colt, LMT and CMT products......they do run.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:15:34 AM EDT
Popcorn-check.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:21:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 12:22:05 AM EDT by Darkest2000]
ANYONE SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE BANNED FOR POSTING THIS SHIT.

STOP TROLLING.

We've had more than enough on stupid posts like this. It gets old.

Someone please lock this.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:24:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:37:16 AM EDT
Old news.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:11:59 AM EDT


Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:25:44 AM EDT
Would you like some fries with your WHAAAburger?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:11:13 AM EDT
Maybe you would be happier if Colt just gave away all of their trade secrets to every swingin' d**k in the small arms biz?

and they could start with the Germans and finish with the Belgians.


you are either a socialist, completely delusional---- or a deliberate

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:06:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:12:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:
ANYONE SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE BANNED FOR POSTING THIS SHIT.

STOP TROLLING.

We've had more than enough on stupid posts like this. It gets old.

Someone please lock this.



+1
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:25:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:33:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
I heard COLT is selling rifles to Al Quaeda now through their Turkish distributors



The horror, the horror....
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:35:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 3:54:48 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:35:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 3:36:15 AM EDT by K1196A]
If you REALLY wanna stick it to the man, (Colt) you'd have sold all your Colt rifles at UNDER FMV to help reduce their prestige and resale value. By doing that you also kick every Colt loyalist in the crotch a little. That said, LMK if you have another to sell and I'll take it dirt cheap and we can stick it to the man together. You and me brother -- YOU AND ME!

BTW -- my Colts run very well and since I don't have an auto sear or need F/A trigger components then those little things don't bother me.

Ohh, one last thing ---
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:01:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 4:06:36 AM EDT by Boom_Stick]
The leadership may not be the same it was 50 or 60 years ago, but you can bet the employees dont think like the CEOs. My 6400 was put togather by a Colt employee who gets paid pretty well compaired to the others in his/her field. I'd prefer not to buy a rifle from a company who has a high turnover rate and pays some dude off the street $10hr to assemble a rifle I'm suppost to bet my life on.

My Colt is flawless (mechanically and visually). QC on this gun was superb. It was worth every penny of the $1K I paid and I'll prolly be doing it again soon.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:18:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
I heard COLT is selling rifles to Al Quaeda now through their Turkish distributors



Correction....Colt's Turkish MANUFACTURERS.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=71810


Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
The leadership may not be the same it was 50 or 60 years ago, but you can bet the employees dont think like the CEOs. My 6400 was put togather by a Colt employee who gets paid pretty well compaired to the others in his/her field. I'd prefer not to buy a rifle from a company who has a high turnover rate and pays some dude off the street $10hr to assemble a rifle I'm suppost to bet my life on.




How much are they gunna pay the Turkish workers?


-1

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:20:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:



+1
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:46:26 AM EDT
[Archie Bunker]Ohhh Geez!!![/Archie Bunker]
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:55:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Maybe you would be happier if Colt just gave away all of their trade secrets to every swingin' d**k in the small arms biz?





LOL

"Trade Secrets"

That makes me laugh.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:22:47 AM EDT
article clearly points out HK and Bushmaster sucks, marketing practices wise. If they're so great they should come up with their own design instead of stealing Colt's M4 design
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:28:48 AM EDT
I thought LMT was milspec...??
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:31:08 AM EDT
So this is a piece of shit??

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:34:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 5:36:28 AM EDT by One_Shot-One_Kill]
I don't like Colts, and would probably rather take a BM just due to affordability
and the fact that it's not going to stay stock.
I've never tried an H&K M4 copy, I didn't even know they existed her
I wouldn't in any way say that Colt sucks though... That's just retarded.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:35:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
So this is a piece of shit??

img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture240.jpg




of course!

...give it to me, you need something better than that cheap thing
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:38:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
So this is a piece of shit??

img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture240.jpg




No, it's not a POS.

But yes, it's not a COLT.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:08:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:10:33 AM EDT by sapper326]
Every time it comes down to Colt vs. Bushmaster, all these colt owners come out of the woodwork slamming Bushmaster for not being top quality or reliable. As far as I can see it, Bushmaster is just as good as Colt as far as quality. The only difference is that Colt has gone above and beyond to try and please the anti-AW people and provide only certain rifles for the public. Now that may be changing as I see more and more LEO rifles for sale to civilians, I dont know. As far as trade secrets, come on you cant be serious. What about the dozen other manufacturers who make M16 "type" and M4 "type" rifles? RRA has a M4 "type" and they werent mentioned and there are others. What my question comes down to is this, was the law suit focused on HK and Bushmaster because they have grabbed and been grabbing a bigger part of the market share? And also what constitutes "trade secrets" with the AR design? Everything I can buy for a colt I can use on a Bushmaster and have done it before with many frankenrifles that i have built, so what is not able to work in both? And please can we keep this a civil discussion. I am just looking for the answers to the questions. Thanks.

edited for stupid bs spelling errors that are due to a gov run public school education.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:19:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:20:08 AM EDT by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By negative1:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
The leadership may not be the same it was 50 or 60 years ago, but you can bet the employees dont think like the CEOs. My 6400 was put togather by a Colt employee who gets paid pretty well compaired to the others in his/her field. I'd prefer not to buy a rifle from a company who has a high turnover rate and pays some dude off the street $10hr to assemble a rifle I'm suppost to bet my life on.




How much are they gunna pay the Turkish workers?


-1


Well, if they start turning out crap cause they're paying turd world countries to make 'em, then I wont buy it.
My point is that well paid workers tend to consistantly put out a better product.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:22:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sapper326:
What my question comes down to is this, was the law suit focused on HK and Bushmaster because they have grabbed and been grabbing a bigger part of the market share? And also what constitutes "trade secrets" with the AR design? Everything I can buy for a colt I can use on a Bushmaster and have done it before with many frankenrifles that i have built, so what is not able to work in both? And please can we keep this a civil discussion. I am just looking for the answers to the questions. Thanks.



From what I understand, the M4 design and the name "M4" is Colts trademark.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:23:18 AM EDT
I can say that the employees over at Bushmaster are some of the highest paid and most proffessional craftsmen I know of.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:24:20 AM EDT
So its just the name M4 that is the issue? Not the parts inside the rifle?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:27:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ripcode:

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:



+1





+2 and add this :

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:29:51 AM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
HANG HIM



Actually, I could care less about Colt. I've stated elsewhere that I would buy a 20" A2 in a heartbeat if it had std. FCG pins and no sear block.

They won't do it, so I won't buy one.

I used to flame Colt quite a bit, but what's the use? You're going to go on buying LMT or Bushy and the Colt guys are going to go on buying Colt. Simple as that.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:34:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sapper326:
Every time it comes down to Colt vs. Bushmaster, all these colt owners come out of the woodwork slamming Bushmaster for not being top quality or reliable.





I have yet to see a "Bushmaster Sucks!" thread started by a Colt Koolaid drinker, probably one somewhere, but they're outnumbered 1000 to 1 by Colt bashing threads
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:35:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sapper326:
I can say that the employees over at Bushmaster are some of the highest paid and most proffessional craftsmen I know of.



That may be, but I've ordered two barrels from them that both had canted FSBs. One was bad enough to send back but the other was fixable. I had to trim the indexing post then have someone else hold the barrel while I tightened down the barrel nut. It really sucks when your rear sight is all the way left or right, and to me that reveals some QC issues. Also, one of those FSBs looked like a second grader cast it. It was full of pits and just looked ugly.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:45:54 AM EDT
Sounds like Colt envey
Felling a little short in the pants today?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:57:30 AM EDT
I have owned Colt, Bushmaster and DPMS rifles. Quite honestly, I've been happy with them all for countless thousands of rounds. I do not like colts politics or manufacturing ideas, but the fact is they make a good rifle. All this "my brand vs your brand" crap helps no one. I first came to this site for information, and I have learned a lot from it. Everyone has their bias's and will keep buying what they like, works for them, and are willing to pay for. when someones brand is insulted about fit and finish, they counter that it's a battle rifle and should be ugly, but it is the first attack they'll use on the other brands when they see it on a store's rack.

ok, my rant is over
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:05:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Here is an old article from Colt's website for suing HK and Bushmaster. Really when you read it you get the idea of how much Colt sucks. Sure they have a rifle that they subcontract most of the parts for then want complete rights to all M4 type rifles. Probably because they are losing their ass since they have decided to self regulate their sales to civilians. Not to mention they never produced Mil-Spec anything for the civilian market because they self regulated oversized pins, take down parts- you know the drill. I sold all my Colts because they don't care about us, the American consumer in any form and want to sue anyone who produces anything that comes close to their subcontracted mismash of parts they throw together. Give me a break- why won't they go after LMT, CMT etc. for making M4's because these companies only sells uppers and lowers to civilians and besides why would they want to sue the company that makes the actual stuff for them. Honestly I'm sick of people with their elitest attitude of Colt ownership when in reality they support a company that treats us like shit. You know what I say? Fuck Em'- I hope they go under. I'll keep my LMT without their logo's and it is mil-spec. My Bushy's might not have M4 feedramps or magnetic particle BS testing but they run the same. Just glad I sold my Colt to some idiot that would actually pay more for something because of a logo when a REAL mil spec LMT is a lot less.

Just my .02- read the article, then think of your mismatched, non-mil spec Colt junk you bought over the years with their oversize pins, sear blocks, and whatever else BS they tried to pull on us to a point they were going after dealers for having the audacity of selling their products to the American consumer. If you defend Colt , their practices, their ethics, their BS then you probably deserve it. Good luck- and go ahead and pay $350+ for a new barrel from the elitest bastards- why because they can and they don't give two shits about us in any form.

Fuck Colt.

Rant is done. Read the article. Elitest bastards.



Here you go one about how bad Colt is and who makes parts for them and then you say "I'll keep my LMT without logos!" Isn't that like saying I own Colt parts and products?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:10:25 AM EDT
The last thing I wanted to do is bash any manufacturer, I was only trying to 1. assertain what the Colt lawsuit was acctually for. and 2. find out if there is some difference "mechanically" between a Bushmaster and a Colt. I apoligise for anything that may have come off like I was trying to bash Colt. I stated that the only thing I dont like is the anti-AW politics. I have AR's and want to keep them and dont want a manufacturer telling me they agree with some of the politics. Colt is IMHO just as good a rifle as Bushmaster as RRA as Armalite etc. It just amazes me that most everyone on this sight is here for info but yet it always turns into a shit throwing match between brand loyalists. Just my .02.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:13:51 AM EDT
And no I dont have Colt envy. My first AR was an SP1 that after about 15,000 rounds is still going strong.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:15:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By j3_:
Old news.

+1
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:34:05 AM EDT
If I were the judge, I'd make them all bring their product to my court (range) and torture test them until they fail. Loser pays.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:34:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:54:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 8:46:35 AM EDT by K1196A]

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
I have yet to see a "Bushmaster Sucks!" thread started by a Colt Koolaid drinker, probably one somewhere, but they're outnumbered 1000 to 1 by Colt bashing threads



Probably for the same reason BMW or Mercedes doesn't bother trash talking Kia.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:24:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By One_Shot-One_Kill:
I don't like Colts, and would probably rather take a BM just due to affordability
and the fact that it's not going to stay stock.
I've never tried an H&K M4 copy, I didn't even know they existed
I'd definately take most other H&K models over any Colt, any day though.

I wouldn't in any way say that Colt sucks though... That's just retarded.


COLT www.knesekguns.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AR15 M4 CARBINE A3
MODEL NO. 6920 Pictures $1,100
AR15 A3 TACTICAL CARBINE
MODEL NO. 6721 Pictures $1,065
AR15 A2 GOV'T CARBINE
MODEL NO. 6520 Pictures $1,015
AR15 A2 9MM
MODEL NO. 6450 Pictures $1,125
AR15 M4 A3 CARBINE
MODEL NO. 6921 14.5in Pictures $1,350
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:45:22 AM EDT
Colt does suck.

It keeps sucking the ammo out of mag after mag. You know how this has cost me having a rifle suck as well as a Colt?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:49:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K1196A:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
I have yet to see a "Bushmaster Sucks!" thread started by a Colt Koolaid drinker, probably one somewhere, but they're outnumbered 1000 to 1 by Colt bashing threads



Probably for the same reason BMW or Mercedes doesn't bother trash talking a Kia.



If you had seen all of the spotty-quality Colts we got at our shop from 2000-2003, you'd wonder if they had any quality control at the factory. It seems lately that Colt has come back on board with QC, but I was very disappointed with crappy park-jobs, glue on handguards, and other things we saw with Colts at the shop I worked in. They all seemed to function just fine, but they were a little rough. We could sell Bushmasters for $300 less and they NEVER came back for repairs to us.

I don't know if where I worked was a fluke or what, but I did not see anything to indicate Colt being a Mercedes and Bushmaster being a Kia. I own several Colts, and cannot tell any difference whatsoever between them and Bushmasters or any other decent AR out there. Maybe things have changed as of late with Bushmaster, but I always knew them to be reliable. IMO, the difference is mainly in peoples' heads.

There are enough good manufacturers out there now to make it highly competitive, and I don't feel constrained to go with Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, CMT/Stag, Armalite, or any of the other major guys. It's all features, quality, and reliability that sell me. I'm not going to buy trash just to save a buck, but I'm not going to waste money to buy a name, be it any of the above or otherwise. If someone has had a lot of negative experience with a particular make, especially functional problems and the like, I can understand, but I won't buy something based purely on its name. If anyone else wishes to, it's his or her money, and he or she is free to do it.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:51:11 AM EDT
uhhhh Creeper is 100% correct.

Please send me all your Colts......I will test them thouroughly and only return those that are not POS.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:00:34 AM EDT
From a collectability standpoint Colt is a BMW or Mercedes -- they hold their value really well. Of course, even BMW and Mercedes make an occassional lemon and remember in the 2000-2003 period that Colt was probably very heavily involved with military production (not an excuse -- just they are very unlikely to not ship a rifle for a cosmetic reason). That said, I wouldn't exactly call Bushmaster a KIA (not that KIA doesn't have a smoking warranty) -- I was just making an attempt to demonstrate that it is seldom the people who have the more "prestigious" brand that are doing their best to make the other guy look bad.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:01:56 AM EDT
I wonder how the conversation would go if Vulcan was sueing everyone?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:03:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
My point is that well paid workers tend to consistantly put out a better product.



The US auto workers make more than any other and I don't think they "consistently put out a better product". Workers with a higher sense of pride will put out better quality work than a worker only concerned with higher pay every time - doesn't matter what the product is either.

Colt products are top notch, a lot of their policies and practices suck ass.
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