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Posted: 9/3/2008 12:55:31 PM EDT
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I'm just curious to know if one can expect a Colt to fire in photo in this position (2 to 2.5 seconds after complete imersion)?  But NOT expect it to blow up when completely imersed?  Video Showing Colt vs HK |
Why is that? Are you suggesting that the maker of the video welded the barrel shut to facilitate the explosion or that water did not cause the explosion? I just assumed that there was in fact water inside the barrel which caused this to occur. If water was the cause ... I'm am just wondering how one could expect the the rifle to NOT blow up when completely imersed in water as shown in the second picture (which is my original question). |
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There's no argument of any sort here ... just a question. Is there something shown that has been deliberately falsified? Personally I am not going to stick my AR in the pool just to see what happens. From what I saw ... it would appear a barrel full of water looks like a bad thing, at least with the rifle that blew up. |
That does make sense. It truly does. I did notice that when the HK was immersed the video cut and continued to a scene where the water surface was calm & not rippled. Perhaps there was some monkey business going on there. |
Are you guys just mad that the colt blew sky high? I tell you what, Ill take an HK 416 any day over a Colt m4. Flame away kool-aid drinkers 
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When Mythbusters tested this, they fired a 9mm automatic, a .357 revolver, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a bolt action .30-06 underwater. Only the shotgun was damaged. I wouldn't recommend ever doing it, but supposedly if you make sure there are no air pockets whatsoever, the gun will not explode. |
This video is H&K propaganda, and is sooooo very old around here! Everyone knows H&K wants Colt's DOD contract! |
no, I dont care if a colt blew. 1st i wouldnt do it and why would anyone fire completely under water? to me thats like asking if it would shoot in outer space. a waste of time. oh yeah, and we have seen mythbusters is always right about everything., try a gun underwater. just cause the expert team of myth busters didnt see damage or hairline fractures or bulging that has to be measured with a dial caliper i wont take that to heart even if it does seem to work. I wouldnt keep using it |
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No one cares if you would use it afterwards. You said "nothing will fire under water and work after". You are wrong. |
you are right, i got thinking about it.. that is a valid point that is worth knowing. and to add to that. since a colt will blow we should get rid of them. I dont want you guys using defective junk. as a good citizen I will take all that defective colt stuff off your hands for proper disposal but really..if you dont care if it wont work after whats the point? I have seen tests on tv of it myself and non of them was worth a damn after. If I am wrong I am wrong. But if it dont blow up the 1st time I would never fire it again thats for sure. |
you got me there I admit defeat 
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I only have Colt lowers, and you can't have them. I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to fire a rifle or a pistol underwater, or with a barrel full of water either. I don't think Mythbusters are experts on anything, but if you watched that episode you'd see that they fired guns in a tank full of water, and only one of them blew up. The shotgun blew because the wall thickness of the barrel is a lot thinner than on the other guns tested. Did the other guns get damaged? Maybe, but they would still function. I personally would never fire an AR after it's been submersed in water, until I knew the barrel and the gas tube were completely drained. The dude in this youtube video did not do that. |
Im not selling my SP1 just because the HK 416 is a better rifle. |
have you shot the 416? I wondering about it. please tell in detail!!!! |
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Ok, so let's assume that the video isn't slanted toward the HK. That means there must be a valid reason the HK can sucsessfully fire with water in the barrel or there is some extra protection that can keep the water out. Can those that feel that the video is on the straight, tell me how it is possible? Edited to add that I do not own and have never owned a Colt. |
No I have not shot the 416 however, I have fired and owned many other HK products. Sad to say but, Im positive the 416 is a higher quality product than any Colt. |
 why cause HK says so? I will determine that when I can touch one myself. I would like to see for myself this wonder weapon. and not rely on HK press, Even if colt made the 416 I wouldnt believe it untill i seen it and it had 40 plus years of combat experience and use behind it.
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No, not because they say so. Its because Ive owned and fired many HK products. My opinion of the 416 is based off the quality of HK's other designs such as the HK91, G36, MP-5 and many more. Im sure the 416 is as good as any of these other HK weapons. My opinion is, Colt has never made any thing as good as any HK product, and yes I own a Colt.
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well I happen to have a little HK experience myself and nothing they make has moved my world.. its ok but no better than Sig to me. The colt double eagle sucked and the P200, but that doesnt mean the 6920 does. Im not going to argue with you over this just to be a ass, but to me HK is over rated/paying for the name, etc.. I have even used the infamous PSG-1 and was unimpressed. Im not saying they are junk. just not for me. I would like to shoot the 416 to see for myself. I wonder how it will do if some one who has nothing to gain tested it out. |
I hope you dont think Im trying to be an ass here. I was just sharing my opinion of HK stuff. Like I said before, I own an old Colt SP1 and think the 6920 is a nice AR. I just feel HK puts a little more into their gear. 
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We all like guns no matter which kind. thats all that matters
Lemme ask you this. Which rifle can you actually get your hands on? Hint: It starts with "C" I don't care how much HK "puts into their gear", no upper is worth $5000. Even if I could buy an HK for a reasonable price, I wouldn't after they thumbed their noses at the civilian market. |
That is their problem right there. They could be selling tons of rifles to the civilian market, if they wanted too..And if they did, the debate would only get larger.. |
BINGO!  I bet 99% of these "Psuedo H&K lovers" don't even own an AR of any kind. H&K has made no secret of their intention to grab all, or part of Colt's DoD contract. The gas piston thing has been debated here a million times. Sure put one in the $1200-$1500 range and I may bite, but $5000 is down right silly, hell I could get at least 3 LE 6920's for that and have some $ left over.
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Brand loyalties aside; If you fire an AR type weapon with the barrel full of water, it will be the case head that will fail, causing an overpressure to the receivers, bolt carrier, and magazine. Regardless if the barrel is hammer forged CMV or 4140 steel, the receivers are still 7075 aluminum, the case is still brass, and the 60,000 psi venting into the action will still destroy the weapon.... NO MATTER WHO MADE IT. We need to get past this ??? vs. ??? crap, and realize that some things are common to all ARs. Like the fact that a $7000 HK will self destruct just as easily as a POS Vulcan if you experience a case head failure from the barrel being filled with water. |
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Here's a situation anyone might find themself in that requires a weapon to reliably fire fresh out of water. Everyone remember this one?    Here's the video if you haven't seen it. I'm sure this video has been around MUCH longer than the HK vid 
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But that is Chuck Norris! He can hold all of that PSI together with his bare hands! |
They did that with the colt, too, though. |
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Things that can happen in this situation: A ) barrel full of water with air pocket. The bullet afte passing the airpocket with hit the water on the other side - the hydrostatic shock and/or now-deformed bullet could cause the barrel to explode. B) Barrel full of water Because of even preasure it will fire but the bullet will be traveling slower. 1) thats all good with bolt and blowbacks but with gas guns once the bullet passes the gas port your gassing your action. because of the slower velocity the powder will fully burn with the bullet in a closer position than normal function and the bullet is in the barrel for a longer time giving a pressure curve that is strong and long(I know that doesnt sound right ) most likely damaging your gun.And this would be meaningful to any military who might be amphibious. honestly I would never do it. |
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Let's discuss some facts here. Facts as to why the HK or any AK platform rifle is less likely to suffer damage than an AR-15, if fired under water or after having been removed from the water recently. Water in some respects is like air, in the sense that it is relatively fluid or easy in movement. Unlike air, water cannot be compressed, which generally results in forces being applied uniformly across a water front. None of that means much, other than an explanation that a sufficiently robust gun will likely survive being fired under water if all the components are fully submerged. The screwy thing with water is when you have an air / water interface, and you introduce high pressure levels. This causes what is known as "Water Hammer" which is a wall of water, moving at high velocity, impacting something, and unlike air, water has significant mass, and so the impact energy of an expanding wave front of water can be quite significant. If the gun is fully submerged, the expanding wavefront should generally be uniform. If the gun isn't fully submerged, it won't be uniform and destructive pressures may arise as a result. How does the AK - AR difference play into this - in my opinion it's based on the simple fact that an Ak or other piston design - with the typical uniform holes around the circumfrence of the gas tube are going to have little issue filling completey with water, and draining quickly of that same water. The AR on the other hand, is potentially prone to have an air bubble in the gas tube - introducing water hammer, on on the other side, a water bubble in the gas tube, resulting in a pressure spike. All of the above is my armchair philosophizing, based on 2 semesters of college physics, and some working knowledge of fire protection sprinkler systesms. I may have missed some of the specific details, but I believe I captured the gist of the problem. If water drains out of the barrel, gas system uniformly and quickly, probably not much issue. If you might encounter a pocket of water obscuring a portion of the barrel or gas system. it could be destructive. |
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If you time the video you can see the HK drain for a slightly longer time before firing and it's held at a slightly muzzle down cant. The Colt is held slightly canted muzzle up, and is fired sooner. If firing immediatly when surfacing were actually common, then there'd be a lot more injured Soldiers, Sailers, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen from their weapons blowing up in their faces, or from the enemy they couldn't down in time because their Colt or FN blew up. |
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