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Posted: 5/27/2015 11:47:36 AM EDT
[#1]
The notch the charging handle locks into on the upper what does it look like? Worn out maybe upper needs replacing because CH does not have enough real-estate to rest on when locked.
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Posted: 5/27/2015 11:48:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: When I fire my 300 and the bolt cycles back it knocks my charging handle out of lock, this is what I have: Ballistic Advantage 8 in. barrel Mur 1 upper Raineir phosphate fa bcg v7 titanium block carbine buffer AXTS Raptor This is what I've tried, first, 2 different handles, 2nd spikes T2 buffer, 3rd I swapped out an slr adjustable gas block to see if I was overgassed, as this rifle has a noticeably stronger recoil than any of my midlenths, I mention this because its stuck in my head that the recoil is knocking the charging handle loose. Its not riding on a loose gas key bolt, the handles just seem to be popping loose. Any combination of these parts have left me with the same problem. Suggestions? |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 11:55:17 AM EDT
[#3]
I'ts a new reciever, looking at it it looks identical to the other murs I have, I did brace it, and they still pop loose, and yes it seems like its recoil,
I can turn the gas down and not let the bolt cycle and it stays put. But turn it up just enough to function and dammit! everytime. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 12:03:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'ts a new reciever, looking at it it looks identical to the other murs I have, I did brace it, and they still pop loose, and yes it seems like its recoil, I can turn the gas down and not let the bolt cycle and it stays put. But turn it up just enough to function and dammit! everytime. Check for any strike marks from the carrier gas key on the lower. Could be cycling to far back. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 12:07:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Most likely it's the upper. The area where the charging handle latch catches is either very well worn or was not milled deep enough to allow the latch enough purchase to fully engage.
You can test by using a different charging handle than the Raptor, grabbing the charging handle on the right side and giving it a sharp tug. If it comes unlatched then you need to either mill out some material where the latch catches to make the lip it catches on taller or replace the upper. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 12:16:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check for any strike marks from the carrier gas key on the lower. Could be cycling to far back. Impossible for the gas key to touch any part of the lower. If anything the back of the gas key would hit back of the charging handle at the rear end of the recess it rides in, but this couldn't happen either because the buffer would bottom out in the receiver extension preventing the BCG from traveling that far back. Now if the receiver extension is way out of spec and too long, or the buffer is way out of spec and too short, then this could happen, but very unlikely. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 12:50:31 PM EDT
[#7]
More than likely it is the charging handle latch.
Vince |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 12:58:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More than likely it is the charging handle latch. Vince Normally I would agree, but it happens with multiple charging handles, so I'd have to stick with it being the upper. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 1:13:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Carbine buffer with a rifle length extension?
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Posted: 5/27/2015 1:15:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Impossible for the gas key to touch any part of the lower. If anything the back of the gas key would hit back of the charging handle at the rear end of the recess it rides in, but this couldn't happen either because the buffer would bottom out in the receiver extension preventing the BCG from traveling that far back. Now if the receiver extension is way out of spec and too long, or the buffer is way out of spec and too short, then this could happen, but very unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Check for any strike marks from the carrier gas key on the lower. Could be cycling to far back. Impossible for the gas key to touch any part of the lower. If anything the back of the gas key would hit back of the charging handle at the rear end of the recess it rides in, but this couldn't happen either because the buffer would bottom out in the receiver extension preventing the BCG from traveling that far back. Now if the receiver extension is way out of spec and too long, or the buffer is way out of spec and too short, then this could happen, but very unlikely. Out of spec receiver extension would explain why it is happening. Without pics it's really hard to say though. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 1:21:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carbine buffer with a rifle length extension? That would do it, but it would violently slam the charging handle rearward and likely shear the gas key off the BCG and/or damage the lower. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 1:23:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Out of spec receiver extension would explain why it is happening. Without pics it's really hard to say though. Receiver extension would have to be REALLY out of spec (more than an inch). |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 1:44:54 PM EDT
[#13]
happened to me...with the same CH - raptor.
what happened was the roll pins kept backing out on the ears causing the latch to not be correctly engaged on the receiver. not sure about yours though since it happens with diff CH, other guy may be right about the receiver. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 2:47:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Put the heaviest buffer spring you can find in. You need to slow everything down.
You'll probably need a very heavy buffer also, and tune with your slr. This is only if you think the problem is recoil. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 10:27:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Out of spec CH latch recess or latch....
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Posted: 5/27/2015 10:53:48 PM EDT
[#16]
If you are talking about 300BLK, I hardly see the recoil in itself being the problem because the recoil is so mild. Something is out of spec. Based on what you have stated, you can eliminate the charging handle itself. You claim the locking notch is the same as your other uppers. That leaves excessive side to side play of the charging handle in the upper, or the bolt carrier group is snagging the charging handle as it cycles somehow.
I don't see the carrier snagging or putting enough pressure on the charging handle unless the gas key is bent and dragging, but if it was that bad, it wouldn't line up with the gas tube when it went forward. I think the slot where the charging handle fits may be too wide. When you fire, it has space to swing side to side, so it still bypasses the locking notch on the upper even though it is the correct depth. Another possibility is the notch is the correct depth, but cut too far forward. Take a close look with the charging handle all the forward and make sure the claw is actually locking into the notch. It may just barely be hanging out, so it is never really locked. Push your charging handles forward and try pulling them back by not actuating any of the release levers. You should not be able to actuate it by finger pressure. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 11:15:48 PM EDT
[#17]
BA barrels are overgassed. You probably have a system with a stronger 'kick' than normal but it shouldn't knok you CH OOB. There is something wrong with the CH.
Have you tried a new cheap $15 drop in CH as a replacement? very simple troubleshooting solution. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 1:52:15 AM EDT
[#18]
He says he used 2 different charging handles with same results. Also if he turns the gas down it will stay put.
I've read about others getting raptors with weak springs that make them come out of the locking notch on 14 - 16" AR's I have one on a MUR upper that works well, the slot where the charging handle fits is so tight that it scrapes the finish off both my raptor and BCM CH. The only thing you could do is check out what H53EX says, if slowing it down won't work. Viltor is great for taking care of their customers if you need to exchange your upper. Jam something in the spring of the raptor to make it stiffer. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:19:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He says he used 2 different charging handles with same results. Also if he turns the gas down it will stay put. I've read about others getting raptors with weak springs that make them come out of the locking notch on 14 - 16" AR's I have one on a MUR upper that works well, the slot where the charging handle fits is so tight that it scrapes the finish off both my raptor and BCM CH. The only thing you could do is check out what H53EX says, if slowing it down won't work. Viltor is great for taking care of their customers if you need to exchange your upper. Jam something in the spring of the raptor to make it stiffer. The way I read it, he turned down the gas to the point of no cycle. As soon as he turns it up enough to cycle, it comes loose again. That tells me it has nothing to do with the gas or recoil. It is the act of the carrier cycling that is causing the problem. He should actually be able to verify that by removing the upper and manually pushing the BCG back. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:30:40 AM EDT
[#20]
I would install a stiffer spring in the raptor latch.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:54:09 AM EDT
[#21]
2 out of 5 of my Raptors do this on every upper I've tested them in. Which is more than three. The springs in the latch are weak, and either need replacing with a stronger spring or as mentioned; jam something in there to tighten the spring up a bit.
My two raptors that give me problems come OOB on ALL barrels lengths, suppressed & not, and on every upper they've been in. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:36:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Saw a post somewhere someone had bought a charging handle the carrier key recess was not cut far enough back and the back of the key was hitting the back of the handle recess knocking it loose. Not sure what type handle it was.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 9:18:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Post pics
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Posted: 5/28/2015 11:37:45 AM EDT
[#24]
The charging handle latch is not designed to prevent the handle from being forced open - its only there to prevent the handle from falling back fully extended. There should be no force acting upon the charging handle at all during firing. This fact is extremely important because the design of the weapon requires your face to be close to the charging handle, and any shooter must have complete confidence in knowing the charging handle is not going to fly back and break his nose. You have to find what is happening and fix it. My guess would be that the gas key is striking the rear of the charging handle slot as already proposed above
. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 12:08:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The charging handle latch is not designed to prevent the handle from being forced open - its only there to prevent the handle from falling back fully extended.... . That doesn't make any sense. Without some form of locking device, the charging handle is going to come back, even during normal firing. Even if the standard vibrations and recoil from normal operation itself did not cause it to come back, the impulse of the bolt carrier coming to a complete stop on the recoil system would. The latch is designed to prevent the handle from being forced open, even if the force is minimal. It is designed to come back when it is unlatched and no other time, and no other distance. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 12:20:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The charging handle latch is not designed to prevent the handle from being forced open - its only there to prevent the handle from falling back fully extended. There should be no force acting upon the charging handle at all during firing. This fact is extremely important because the design of the weapon requires your face to be close to the charging handle, and any shooter must have complete confidence in knowing the charging handle is not going to fly back and break his nose. You have to find what is happening and fix it. My guess would be that the gas key is striking the rear of the charging handle slot as already proposed above . |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 1:31:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Would venture to guess that the CH itself is too light to unlock on its own via centrifugal force even with heavy recoil unless the locking mechanism is faulty either at the CH or the upper. That would leave another possibility, that it's being dragged open by friction with the gas key from the BCG which may/may not show contact wear (does it extend or just pop loose? It could result in either.) Misalignment of the upper/lower receivers could also potentially pop the CH up and out of lock.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 4:59:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Whatever it is, I hope the OP comes in to give a update.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:22:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Alright, I took these two out today to see what I could discover for input.
And before changing spring and buffer again, I see this, the handguard separation. 
So I crack open the uppers on both rifles, and I see this channel being cut into the receiver. 
That's after about 75 rnds through the 300. The other photo shows no wear in the other upper after more than 2k rnds 
So, now I know its not a charging handle issue, and I know my 270 bolt shoots softer, and I see I have a spec or alighnment issue, But is it Bolt? Receiver? Gas tube? |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:43:57 PM EDT
[#30]
What the hell do those pictures have anything do with shit? Swap the charging handle between the two rifles. If it does it on both rifles while shooting, you know it is the charging handle. And for holy fuck's sake, try a standard charging handle instead of that mall ninja bullshit. Don't you know anybody that has just a regular old standard charging handle?
Even if you only have access to those, take the upper off and push back on the carrier by finger. If it unlatches immediately, you need a stiffer spring in the latch, just as many people have told you, or the notch is not cut correctly in the upper. If it does not unlatch, keep pushing back until you see how or where the carrier or key is pushing the charging handle. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:49:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Wow thanks for the input.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:56:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow thanks for the input. You haven't tried or checked any of the things several people have told you to check. Your pictures show absolutely nothing that helps the situation. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:10:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Uh yeah, I have, buffers, springs, mall ninja shit, you know, now if you have something constructive go on, if not well thanks for playing.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:19:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh yeah, I have, buffers, springs, mall ninja shit, you know, now if you have something constructive go on, if not well thanks for playing. Stop worrying about all the stupid shit that probably has nothing to do with the problem. Insert the charging handle, lock it in place. Does it lock in place? If it locks in place, you can eliminate the locking groove being out of spec. Attempt to pull back on the charging handle without actuating the levers. Does it stay in place? If it stays in place, you can eliminate a weak spring in the latches. Push the bolt carrier group by hand. Does the charging handle unlock when it gets to a certain point? If it does, look to see what is binding or striking and causing the handle to unlatch. Telling you what to check is like you saying your steering wheel is shaking on your truck and we tell you to check the tire pressure and the ball joints, but you are checking the windshield wipers and the tailgate. Do you get that? |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:23:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alright, I took these two out today to see what I could discover for input. <a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/user/h8ulane/media/20150528_163713_zps4vjxispl.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/h8ulane/20150528_163713_zps4vjxispl.jpg</a> And before changing spring and buffer again, I see this, the handguard separation. <a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/user/h8ulane/media/20150528_163729_zpsktjre6za.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/h8ulane/20150528_163729_zpsktjre6za.jpg</a> So I crack open the uppers on both rifles, and I see this channel being cut into the receiver. <a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/user/h8ulane/media/20150528_164034_zps7dfzytqy.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/h8ulane/20150528_164034_zps7dfzytqy.jpg</a> That's after about 75 rnds through the 300. The other photo shows no wear in the other upper after more than 2k rnds <a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/user/h8ulane/media/20150528_164201_zpspdesditj.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/h8ulane/20150528_164201_zpspdesditj.jpg</a> So, now I know its not a charging handle issue, and I know my 270 bolt shoots softer, and I see I have a spec or alighnment issue, But is it Bolt? Receiver? Gas tube? First, the rail is just loose on the barrel nut and has moved forward a bit. No effect on the gas tube. Looking at the pictures, both gas tubes appear to be centered and extending into the receivers the proper length. You said that there is a channel being cut into the upper? I don't see it. What I do see is the anodizing being worn where the charging handle is contacting the channel in the upper. This is relatively common and the wear will only get to a certain point then stop once everything is mated up. Put a standard charging handle in the suspect receiver and give it a sharp tug holding only the right side of the charging handle. If it moves back then I'd suspect the upper. The other thing you can do is with the suspect upper off, get a hold of the BCG from the bottom and push it rearward with varying degrees of force to see if it is binding in the channel on the bottom of charging handle. If you don't have a bruised face from the charging handle hitting it, then it's not likely that the BCG is hitting or bound up on the charging handle. ETA: Since other charging handles have done the same thing, try one or two of those charging handles with a BCG from a different gun. If it still happens then the upper is the problem. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 8:13:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Okay crayon time, I put multiple charging handles in the upper, including standard ones, JP springs, 4 diff size buffers, and retorqued barrel, installed new gas block, and my hand guard isn't "loose"
so ALL I have is an upper receiver that looks like its getting dug into a bit more than the uppers on my other rifles after very few rounds being fired through it. And after the handle changes, etc. I noticed a nominal diff. in the wear on this particular receiver today. As compared to other tailgates I own. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 8:35:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What the hell do those pictures have anything do with shit? Swap the charging handle between the two rifles. If it does it on both rifles while shooting, you know it is the charging handle. And for holy fuck's sake, try a standard charging handle instead of that mall ninja bullshit. Don't you know anybody that has just a regular old standard charging handle? Even if you only have access to those, take the upper off and push back on the carrier by finger. If it unlatches immediately, you need a stiffer spring in the latch, just as many people have told you, or the notch is not cut correctly in the upper. If it does not unlatch, keep pushing back until you see how or where the carrier or key is pushing the charging handle. I love the "mall ninja bullshit" comment. Pretty dipshit remark considering the difference those"mall ninja bullshit" parts make! Just using your fingers to push the CH back is not going to do anything. Completely different forces are exerted on the carrier, and CH while actually firing the rifle. Your fingers aren't going to come close! Waste of time. That rifle obviously has other more serious problems according to the pic posted. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 11:16:47 PM EDT
[#38]
OP, is the bore obstructed, as in a squib load past the gas port? I'm trying to figure out what could possibly make a .300 Blackout seem to recoil harder than a .270 bolt action rifle. A plugged bore past the gas port would result in extreme bolt carrier speeds, at least until the whole thing explodes.
Please give specific information about the ammunition used so far. What does the fired brass look like? Any pressure signs? Am I understanding correctly that the adjustable gas block seems to go directly from off to full stroke of the bolt carrier, with no in between? |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 2:35:28 AM EDT
[#39]
Bump.
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Posted: 5/30/2015 10:37:09 AM EDT
[#40]
No bore problems, I believe the extra "kick" is the gas key scraping and putting pressure on the charging handle which is popping it loose.
There is some material being removed from the inside top of the reciever, tiny bits of aluminum. I put that bolt in another carrier to try today but havent had the chance. I also may change upper receiver too. Gas is regulated with the SLR and I have ran compressed air though it enough times to be confident in that aspect. Ammo has been a mix from remington, PSA, and Freedom Munitions, all supers, all cases extract and look identical I know the handle poping loose is a symptom to a big problem, but what I don't know. I can replace parts till I see, but after 75 rnds or so and the wear in that upper I suspect its the gas key |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 11:03:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Oh and no the gas block will cycle the bolt in diff. settings, albeit I am cranking it into its higher settings for bolt hold open.
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Posted: 5/30/2015 11:10:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Do you know what Prussian Blue is?
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Posted: 5/30/2015 1:26:11 PM EDT
[#43]
After looking at your pictures again, your charging handle is being pinned between the top of the bolt carrier and the upper receiver. That means that the channel for the charging handle was not cut deep enough, the charging handle is too tall, or the area of the bolt carrier that sits below the front of the charging handle is too high. I suspect it is the channel in the upper receiver being too shallow. Can you post pictures of both the top and bottom of the charging handle? Finish wear on the charging handle will help diagnose the problem.
With the upper off the rifle, and upside down, and the charging handle not in the latched position, the bolt carrier should be able to push the charging handle forward, but not have any contact with it when the bolt carrier is moved to the rear. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 2:36:34 PM EDT
[#44]
You might be in the ballpark , these are all MUR 1's, the one on the left is the suspect, I could only make a crude measurement. But I can mic it Monday to get accurate. The two proven receivers measure the same, the one that's giving me trouble is 1/32 shallower. Like I said not accurate measuring, but noticeable. Is that enough to cause all this trouble? ETA Just got back from shooting and BCG swap didn't change anything. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 2:43:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Did you ever check the receiver extension, lower strike marks, of it the carrier key is striking the charging handle?
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Posted: 5/30/2015 3:00:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes, I verified that there are no strike marks, and with the upper off I cant unlatch the handle moving the bolt to the rear.
And the bcg takes the ch into battery normally. As for wear on the outside of my charging handles, well they're all pretty worn. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 3:17:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Yes, 1/32" is enough to cause problems. I'd contact Vltor.
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Posted: 5/30/2015 3:20:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The notch the charging handle locks into on the upper what does it look like? Worn out maybe upper needs replacing because CH does not have enough real-estate to rest on when locked. Ive worn out an upper to the point the charging handle wouldnt stay latched and the ejector port cover wouldnt stay closed. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 3:24:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for the help, meantime I will swap out receivers and hopefully enjoy this thing, appreciate the troubleshooting.
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Posted: 5/30/2015 3:37:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Please post pics of the wear on the CHs, both top and bottom. I'm betting you have significant wear on the nub at the top front (this will usually get minor wear), and significant wear on the bottom front surface (this normally has no/very little wear).
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