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Posted: 10/16/2011 2:12:58 PM EDT
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Im in the process of building my first ar and am stuck in between 223 wylde or a 5.56. Is there a preference between the two? This rifle will be used mainly for target shooting up to 600 yards and i would be reloading for 223 in the future. Any suggestions?
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Im in the process of building my first ar and am stuck in between 223 wylde or a 5.56. Is there a preference between the two? This rifle will be used mainly for target shooting up to 600 yards and i would be reloading for 223 in the future. Any suggestions? Thanks My understanding is that if you use a 5.56 Wylde chamber you can use both 223 and 5.56. That is what Wylde is. I just purchased a LT 5.56 OBR with Wylde chambering and I contacted LT and they told me that I can use 5.56 and 223 and that is what Wylde means. They also told me, never use bolt action 5.56 or 223s in it. |
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Wylde is a modified 5.56 chamber, the main difference is a narrower diameter freebore (interference fit) in the throat. It's intended as an accuracy chamber for 5.56mm pressure loads.
Just discussed chambers already once today... ref: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/550713_Which_gauges_to_use_for_a_Wylde_chamber_.html&page=1#i5254125 Couple of other links in that thread you might want to check out. |
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Wylde is a modified 5.56 chamber, the main difference is a narrower diameter freebore (interference fit) in the throat. It's intended as an accuracy chamber for 5.56mm pressure loads. Just discussed chambers already once today... ref: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/550713_Which_gauges_to_use_for_a_Wylde_chamber_.html&page=1#i5254125 Couple of other links in that thread you might want to check out. That was hours ago! This should work until tomorrow http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/445663__223_andamp_quot_wyldeandamp_quot__chamber_.html |
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Im in the process of building my first ar and am stuck in between 223 wylde or a 5.56. Is there a preference between the two? This rifle will be used mainly for target shooting up to 600 yards and i would be reloading for 223 in the future. Any suggestions? Thanks Suggestion/Answer - get the Wylde chamber....<><....:) |
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223 wylde you can use 556 ammo. only difference is the trhoat lengh.
If i were you, i would go witht the 20 or 24" 223 wylde with a 1-8 twist, this way you can use heavier grain bullet, up to 69grain if you wan to. If you think you will be happy withe 55 grain, than go with the 1-9 twist. Chomed line for durability and easy to clean, the barrel that is. One thing to remember, if you want accuracy stick to the ammo that the barrel is chambered for, 223 on a 223 or 556 on a 556. Just because you can interchange them, the small difference that each have affects accuracy specially at long distances 300M and up |
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223 wylde you can use 556 ammo. only difference is the trhoat lengh. If i were you, i would go witht the 20 or 24" 223 wylde with a 1-8 twist, this way you can use heavier grain bullet, up to 69grain if you wan to. If you think you will be happy withe 55 grain, than go with the 1-9 twist. Chomed line for durability and easy to clean, the barrel that is. Can't do Wylde with chrome lined. |
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223 wylde you can use 556 ammo. only difference is the trhoat lengh. If i were you, i would go witht the 20 or 24" 223 wylde with a 1-8 twist, this way you can use heavier grain bullet, up to 69grain if you wan to. If you think you will be happy withe 55 grain, than go with the 1-9 twist. Chomed line for durability and easy to clean, the barrel that is. Can't do Wylde with chrome lined. Hmmm, well, there you go, 223 not chromed lined. The point i was trying to make chose which ever, but use the appropriate ammo that is chambered for. Wonder why you can not get a 223 chromed lined, after all is the same diameter bullet. |
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I understand that 5.56 chambered rifle will be fine for 5.56 and .223,
A rifle chambered for .223 should not be used for 5.56. Wylde can be used for both. Something about 5.56 being just a little longer than .223. The accuracy of 223 fired in a 5.56 chamber won't be as good. I'll look for the info I had found on this subject. |
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I understand that 5.56 chambered rifle will be fine for 5.56 and .223, A rifle chambered for .223 should not be used for 5.56. Wylde can be used for both. Something about 5.56 being just a little longer than .223. The accuracy of 223 fired in a 5.56 chamber won't be as good. I'll look for the info I had found on this subject. You should reread the above posts |
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I understand that 5.56 chambered rifle will be fine for 5.56 and .223, A rifle chambered for .223 should not be used for 5.56. Wylde can be used for both. Something about 5.56 being just a little longer than .223. The accuracy of 223 fired in a 5.56 chamber won't be as good. I'll look for the info I had found on this subject. The fisical exterior dimentions of the 556 and 223 bullet are exactly the same, the only difference is that the 556 casing has thicker walls and the 556 barrel has i belive and 1/8" longer throat to accomodate higher presure when fired. To make a very tong story short, "for accuracy" you should used the 556 ammo on 556 barrel, and a 223 ammo on 223 barrel, If you are going to use 55 grain ammo then just use 1-9 twiest if you think you might wanna use heavier grain go with a 1-8 twist to up to 69 and if you think you might wanna go higher then that go with 1-7 twist, You might think well, i will get the 1-7 twiest and i will be set, well that is the case if you are uing havier grain ammo. If you use lets say a a 45, 50 55 grain bullet in 1-7 twist berrel. I have read, that they can become unstable because of the higher presure of fast twist. But i have not seen it for myself though. Just a lil more food for your brain to digest. Now that everything is clear as mud, you need to make the dicision  556 or 223. My findins is that 223 has better selecion and it is more available.
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.... the only difference is that the 556 casing has thicker walls .... To make a very tong story short, "for accuracy" you should used the 556 ammo on 556 barrel, and a 223 ammo on 223 barrel, If you are going to use 55 grain ammo then just use 1-9 twiest if you think you might wanna use heavier grain go with a 1-8 twist to up to 69 and if you think you might wanna go higher then that go with 1-7 twist Nothing in that quote is correct. A chamber designed for accuracy (like a Wylde) will be much more accurate on balance than a 5.56 NATO chamber. A Wylde should be very close to a .223 SAAMI chamber, with the safety and performance of being able to use any ammo type. 55gr lead core ammo only needs a 1:12 or so twist rate, and up to 62gr or so with some bullet designs. 1:9 twist gets you up to 68/69gr OTMs and M855 length bullet styles. Many shoot 75 & 77gr bullets in "1:9" twists but this is very marginal and needs to be tested with an individual barrel. To get good stability with the 75 and 77gr types you need just a little faster, in the old days there were some 1:8.5 barrels for this. 1:8 gets you effectively any 5.56 or 223 cartridge that will fit in an AR magazine as well as some that don't, even with short barrels... this is the twist used by most of the match shooters who shoot the 80gr Sierra OTM that is too long to fit in a magazine. Kreiger has a special 1:7.7 twist which is designed just for the 80gr to give it just a little extra stability. Plenty of discussion and controversy over the adoption of the 1:7 twist by the military, suffice it to say, that unless you're in genuine arctic temperatures trying to shoot exceptionally long bullets it's an excessively fast twist. As best I can determine from reading the history of the M16A2 and M855, 1:7 became the twist rate because of a single failure to meet a specification when testing using 1:8 - that failure being an accuracy specification for M856 tracer, at 800 meters, in (-50F) arctic temperatures, and nothing between 1:8 and 1:7 was tested. A good part of the controversy is whether that excessive twist has adverse effects and the magnitude of those effects. The only "normal" load/bullet that comes to mind as actually needing a faster-than-1:8 twist would be the Barnes 70gr and similar "Brown Tip" military load, and I only have that uncertainty since I have not seen or done any testing of that load in a 1:8. Realize that the actual bullet weight is irrelevant to twist requirement, it's the length, shape, and center of gravity of the bullet that determine twist requirements... the Barnes 70gr, since it's all copper, is much longer than a lead core 70gr bullet, in the same way that M855 with the steel tip inside the bullet is much longer than an all-lead core 62gr bullet. Somewhere by following the links either in this thread or the other thread I linked to, there is a chart showing the case capacity of various 223 and 5.56 cartridges cases which soundly disproves the "thicker walls" idea about 5.56 cases. If anything, that chart shows that their case walls may well be thinner since 5.56 cases generally have a higher capacity than 223 cases. Now that everything is clear as mud, you need to make the dicision 556 or 223.
No you don't. There's no practical downside to picking a Wylde chamber versus a 223 SAAMI chamber, and the upside is that it's frankly dangerous to have an AR15 type rifle with a SAAMI chamber due to the overpressure created when shooting 5.56 pressure loads (factory or handloads). And unless you're building a genuine precision rifle, the accuracy loss from going to a chamber with a little larger diameter freebore isn't all that much, so for a "tactical"/defensive/plinking/hunting rifle, the ease of handling and reliability improvement is more useful than the slight bit of accuracy that is lost vs a Wylde. I'm not entirely sure where you could even get a SAAMI chambered AR15 barrel nowadays other than having one custom made, and the barrelsmith would likely try to talk you into a Wylde if you tried. |
| Wow that is a lot to take in. I knew twist rates effected the accuracy of the bullet and the stability too depending on the weight but i think i need to do more research before i actually pull the trigger on a barrel. Thanks for the input guys. Maybe i will make myself two rifles. One for long range/accuracy and one for closer shooting. |
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.... the only difference is that the 556 casing has thicker walls .... To make a very tong story short, "for accuracy" you should used the 556 ammo on 556 barrel, and a 223 ammo on 223 barrel, If you are going to use 55 grain ammo then just use 1-9 twiest if you think you might wanna use heavier grain go with a 1-8 twist to up to 69 and if you think you might wanna go higher then that go with 1-7 twist Nothing in that quote is correct. HMMMMMM, lets see A chamber designed for accuracy (like a Wylde) will be much more accurate on balance than a 5.56 NATO chamber. A Wylde should be very close to a .223 SAAMI chamber, with the safety and performance of being able to use any ammo type. I thikn we in the same page here. 55gr lead core ammo only needs a 1:12 or so twist rate, and up to 62gr or so with some bullet designs. 1:9 twist gets you up to 68/69gr OTMs and M855 length bullet styles. Many shoot 75 & 77gr bullets in "1:9" twists but this is very marginal and needs to be tested with an individual barrel. To get good stability with the 75 and 77gr types you need just a little faster, in the old days there were some 1:8.5 barrels for this. I think we both agree on these two above as well. 1:8 gets you effectively any 5.56 or 223 cartridge that will fit in an AR magazine as well as some that don't, even with short barrels... this is the twist used by most of the match shooters who shoot the 80gr Sierra OTM that is too long to fit in a magazine. Kreiger has a special 1:7.7 twist which is designed just for the 80gr to give it just a little extra stability. Plenty of discussion and controversy over the adoption of the 1:7 twist by the military, suffice it to say, that unless you're in genuine arctic temperatures trying to shoot exceptionally long bullets it's an excessively fast twist. As best I can determine from reading the history of the M16A2 and M855, 1:7 became the twist rate because of a single failure to meet a specification when testing using 1:8 - that failure being an accuracy specification for M856 tracer, at 800 meters, in (-50F) arctic temperatures, and nothing between 1:8 and 1:7 was tested. A good part of the controversy is whether that excessive twist has adverse effects and the magnitude of those effects. The only "normal" load/bullet that comes to mind as actually needing a faster-than-1:8 twist would be the Barnes 70gr and similar "Brown Tip" military load, and I only have that uncertainty since I have not seen or done any testing of that load in a 1:8. Realize that the actual bullet weight is irrelevant to twist requirement, it's the length, shape, and center of gravity of the bullet that determine twist requirements... the Barnes 70gr, since it's all copper, is much longer than a lead core 70gr bullet, in the same way that M855 with the steel tip inside the bullet is much longer than an all-lead core 62gr bullet. Ok good information but irrelavent for what he is trying to achieve. Somewhere by following the links either in this thread or the other thread I linked to, there is a chart showing the case capacity of various 223 and 5.56 cartridges cases which soundly disproves the "thicker walls" idea about 5.56 cases. If anything, that chart shows that their case walls may well be thinner since 5.56 cases generally have a higher capacity than 223 cases. Now that everything is clear as mud, you need to make the dicision 556 or 223.
No you don't. There's no practical downside to picking a Wylde chamber versus a 223 SAAMI chamber, and the upside is that it's frankly dangerous to have an AR15 type rifle with a SAAMI chamber due to the overpressure created when shooting 5.56 pressure loads (factory or handloads). So there is a downside to pick a SAAMI over a Wylde, you just said it. And unless you're building a genuine precision rifle, the accuracy loss from going to a chamber with a little larger diameter freebore isn't all that much, so for a "tactical"/defensive/plinking/hunting rifle, the ease of handling and reliability improvement is more useful than the slight bit of accuracy that is lost vs a Wylde. I think you are disagreing to agree?????? 
So if i read you correctly, he sould go witha t 223 Wylde with a 1-8 twist???? |
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Wow that is a lot to take in. I knew twist rates effected the accuracy of the bullet and the stability too depending on the weight but i think i need to do more research before i actually pull the trigger on a barrel. Thanks for the input guys. Maybe i will make myself two rifles. One for long range/accuracy and one for closer shooting. Yes it is alot to take. You will probably end up with more then two. 
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