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Posted: 12/20/2002 1:32:23 PM EST
I just picked up a Professional Ordnance Carbon 15 pistol, does anyone else here have one?

I would like to here how you guys carry yours, how you hunt with it, what types of loads etc.

I will definitely be using this on woodchucks this spring and am thinking of loading Hornady 40 grain V-Max bullets in it, has anyone else tried these?

Any sugestions and ideas would be greatfully accepted EXCEPT for flames, I did considerable studying on the subject before I got this so I really dont care to here anyones negative feedback.

Thanks all

Jeff
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:07:49 PM EST
Jeff did you get my e-mail
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:08:21 PM EST
Jeff did you get my e-mail
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 4:05:58 AM EST
Compassman, I got your IM and sent a reply, did you also send an e-mail to my regular address? I got a great e-mail telling of some of the common quirks of these and how to deal with them, would still like to hear about carrying for hunting, accessories that people have devised, etc. Has anyone tried an Ergo grip? I am a 1911 man and find that for a pistol the AR grip angle is to radical, would this grip put the weight over the limit? This pistol is used but looks brand new, the previous owner sent it back to the factory and they reamed the chamber out a bit more to ease extraction, I will post again after I get to wring it out this afternoon.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 11:58:33 AM EST
Well, I took it out with my boys after lunch - WOW! Now having put a few rounds through this my .45's are going to feel like shootiing .22's[pistol] The pistol doesnt seem to like 30 rounders until there down 5 to 10 rounds then they function perfectly, the Colt 20 rounder functioned flawlessly everytime. With the 30's it wants to make the rounds nose dive ocassionally and hit the front of the mag, suggestions? Other than the 30 round mag issued it ran like a clock throug 200 rounds of 70's vintage FN and a mix of other ball, some of it corroded and dirty (I wanted to see how it would function with non optimal ammo). Where we shoot there is a rock about the size of a big racoon at 150 yards, my si\on was hitting this with regularity from a rested position, I hit it a few times offhand, it would apear that it has very good accuracy potential. Rapid fire was awsome, it is a dim day here in Wester New York and snowing fairly heavily, the fire ball from this is tremendous and you can feel the concussion even when standing 4 or 5 feet directly behind the shooter. I am waiting for my Tasco Optima 2000 to be returned from repair, this will be (in my opinion) the best red dot to install on this. I dont have the scope mount but can remove the rear sight and use the dovetail 1911 mount on it with minor shimming. Anyone have a spare manual? or have one scanned that you could e-mail to me? All in all I am glad I traded for this, cant wait to see the look on my buddys faces when I pull it out to blast a woodchuck[uzi]
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 1:59:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2002 2:00:36 PM EST by compassman]
The magazine problem is not a problem. I bet if you put something in the back of the magazine it will push it out at the bottom it will work. I bonded a piece of carbon fiber at the inside bottom of the magazine well towards the trigger guard. This pushed out the bottom of the magazine so it functioned perfectly with all 30 rds. I did this to a few others when they experienced the same problem. SO there ya go if you have any questions on how to do this e-mail me. I still have my original box let me se if I have a manual. I have to dig it up.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 5:57:52 PM EST
I also bought a new carbon-15 pistol to play with since they have a limited practical use. I had the same feeding problems until I converted to using the 30rd Thermolds or the 20rd Colts. Now the gun feeds without a problem, and I never had any of the other ejection issues. The sales rep did state that they converted to using a newer harder chrome bolt in their newer pistols so you shouldn't have the problem of them breaking. But I stop firing the military 5.56 ammo and converted to using Black Hills 52gr hp or Winchester 64gr Power Point Plus.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:13:42 PM EST
According to this post Professional Ord is bankrupt. [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=160369&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:18:37 AM EST
I heard about there problems also, however I got the phone number off of their old sight and called, a nice sounding young lady on the message said they were closed for 2 weeks for reorganization. It would appear that they will be back very soon. This pistol from what I understand is a type 97, stainless no fluted barrel, phosphated bolt and non-quick detach muzzle break. The guy I got it from just got it back from them after having the chamber re-reamed due to extraction issues, it must be an older style but is absolutely like new. Compassman, I would definitely like the details on your mod. Thanks for the info, keep it coming. Jeff
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:56:28 AM EST
Filed Chapter 13 BK on 01/23/2002, dismissed 02/25/2002 for failing to file required documents. Filed Chapter 11 BK on 09/06/2002. I'm guessing the first Capter 13 was just a stall tactic to get some creditors off their backs. The Chapter 11 may be the same thing as well. Get creditors to lay off for a while so you can get out of Dodge.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 8:44:41 AM EST
Still seeking info on accessories, carry modes, cases, etc., etc. Dont really care what there status is in banruptcy court as it is irrelevant to my initial post. Thanks for the constructive info I have received so far.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 12:24:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 9:24:13 PM EST by leadfoot]
Maybe I'm just lucky, but when I called and talked to their customer service rep. in early November, she stated that you could still buy parts but you can't order a rifle or pistol. They are still honoring their warranty and their parts are available from other websites. I have the weaver optics rail, red dot scope, laser and surefire light mounted on the 97 pistol I own. The website I used to purchase parts is www.duncangun.com. I own other AR's but the carbon is a fun gun.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:01:28 PM EST
The pistols are a pos AND illegal ! They have been playing illegally for years. The AW ban in the pistols section states all the same stuff plus the semiauto version of a full auto pistol. Rocky Mountain Arms made the Patriot 223 pistol as a machinegun as well..end of story
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:03:58 AM EST
Hmmm... Interesting post, seems like there are plenty of folks who are in dissagreement. Illegal? that is the most follish statement I have heard in a while, if you read (can you?)the assault weapon ban clearly enumerates what a legal post ban pistol of this type needs to qualify (that is a pistol with a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip). 1. no flahs hider or threaded barrel. Carbon 15's OK on that point, no threads and has a muzzle brake. 2. No forward handgrip. Carbon 15's good to go on htis as well unless of course you have a sever mental deficiency and want to hold on to that barrel during rapid fire (I think not). 3. Nukber of imported parts. No sweat, all US made. 4. Under 50 ounces excluding detachable optics, accessories and magazine. Carbon 15's handily meet this requirement, the heaviest of these pistols weighs in at about 47 ounces +- but well within the leagal limits. I would have to say that based on the law these pistols are more than legal, mine is registered in NYS on my pistol and now that the law has changed for deer hunting allowing any centerfire handgun I just might use it to take a buck next year. And in case you havent noticed there is nothing cheap about these guns, very high quality parts and excellant amnufacturing. They have a few quirks its true but I have seen new multiple thousand dollar guns that have had issues out of the box, so who cares as long as they can be made to work. Mine functions perfectly with 20 round mags and will burn them as fast as I can pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:49:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: The pistols are a pos AND illegal ! They have been playing illegally for years. The AW ban in the pistols section states all the same stuff plus the semiauto version of a full auto pistol.
View Quote
I believe that you are referring to "constructive possession". The CP rules are not part of the AWB. If you feel you are correct, please provide reference to the AWB law. As to the full auto parts, I don't see any FA parts in the Carbon 15 pistols. The bolt carriers are certainly non-standard and will not trip an auto-sear. In addition, the hammer, trigger and disconnector are not FA parts. As to the gun being a POS. I also have to disagree. They are certainly not the most reliable AR15s, but they can function well once you understand their quirks. Use only Thermold mags and .223 (not 5.56). Then clean the gun well each time you shoot it. They are fun to shoot, but I would not want to put my life on the line with one. They are a fun plinker... That's all.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 9:25:13 AM EST
verbatim what the law says : 3. A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (1) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (2) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (3) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned. (4) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. (5) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm EVERYBODY forgets #5..AR pistols were made and registered as an automatic firearm. End of discussion.#5 and any of 1-4 and its illegal
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:01:13 AM EST
There is an important aspect of this JusDfacts that you have neglected. When a manufacturer of firearms sets out to manufacture and distribute a new firearm it must have ATF approval.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:06:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: verbatim what the law says : 3. A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (1) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (2) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (3) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned. (4) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. (5) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm EVERYBODY forgets #5..AR pistols were made and registered as an automatic firearm. End of discussion.#5 and any of 1-4 and its illegal
View Quote
If the actual firearm itself was completely and so obviously illegal, the ATF would have jumped all over it by now (in fact before it was releadsed). Just because there were versions of the AR pistols that were automatic doesn't mean all the original AR pistols were made that way. There are full y automatic versions of the Glock 17 (the G18) and the Beretta 92 (the 93) and those are not considered illegal, and by your interpretation they would be.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:23:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 10:24:51 AM EST by StealthyBlagga]
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: EVERYBODY forgets #5..AR pistols were made and registered as an automatic firearm. End of discussion.#5 and any of 1-4 and its illegal
View Quote
By this rational, several popular pistols would be illegal AWs, as versions of them have been made as FA or select-fire... the 1911 and Glock 17 spring to mind.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 11:03:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: blah blah blah..... End of discussion.#5 and any of 1-4 and its illegal
View Quote
[rolleyes] Somebody obviously has their head up their ass. Can you guess who it is?
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 11:27:47 AM EST
I believe this man is somewhat obtuse, or more bluntly a TROLL, he is probably a little green eyed as well. Now, back to the discussion at hand.... Anyone else have input (positive and constructive) on these pistols and how you handle them? What about cases? And here is a biggie, anyone know of a holster for these?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 5:54:29 PM EST
I just had to drop a note here, I have a Carbon 15 type 97 pistol and really love it. I've been wanting a 7.62X39 version, considering building one if I can figure out how to get the weight below the 50 oz. limit. I've used thermold mags exclusively and had no problems. If you haven't bump fired one of these yet, you are missing one of the really fun parts of shooting them. Them suckers are fast. I have been wondering if using heavier rounds would make them more efficient. They do have one heck of a muzzle flash, indicating so much powder is burnt after the round leaves the barrel. I have wondered if a heavier bullet, tending to stay in the barrel longer, would be a way to optimize the efficiency of the round with the short barrel. If anyone can supply some space to post a manual on-line, I'll copy mine and send it so you can post it. I notice they don't have any copywrite on it. But my scanner uses a computer space, the size of the file will be large. My e-mail is boeboe@gunbroker.zzn.com For the holster, best construct a strap that will hang from your shoulder with a clamp fitting the buffer on one end, works well under a trench coat (as long as you have you ccw permit). I'd have to throw in the ATF would have most certainly have had to given the okay on these from the get-go. But that's not saying they perhaps didn't make a mistake. They have done that before. I've never measured one, but have been told the AK47 underfolders are actually just a bit short of the legal 26" when folded. I think if the ATF was concerned with the Carbon 15 pistols, they would have done something about it long ago.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:09:04 PM EST
I dont have one but Ive often wondered if they could stand up to some home loads with a faster burning powder.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:49:47 AM EST
Had considered building an AR15 pistol as a project gun from one of the many available kits. However, after reading the posts in this section I'll probably just try to find a used Carbon 15 or similar. I checked a FAQ page for the ATF to try and find some responses on similar construction questions but no luck. Most of the kits are of the variety that would currently be illegal if actually constructed on a lower receiver according to the discussion. While I don't know how the buffer tuibe attaches to the lower, GG&G makes a new sling attachment that attaches to the buffer tube at the receiver housing. It has dual sling attachment points that would make a shoulder sling a cinch.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:05:56 AM EST
Hey guys, Good to see some constructive thought and dialogue here! On handloading I was wonderering about handloads myself using a faster burning powder specifically IMR 4227, I have been advised by others that staying with a heavier bullet would probably be best for optimal accuracy however at the ranges these pistols are used at I dont think it would be detrimental. I worked out a great solution for the sling issue, the allen head cap screw the retains the plate below the buffer has the same threads as a forend quick detach sling swivel stud. I installed the stud with a washer and can put a sling on it to hang over my shoulder (am looking for a longer one suitable to go voer my head and under my arm with a quick detach buckle). When the sling is removed the stud looks like it has always been there. Any info on loads would be great, I am interested in loading for woodchucks (thinking of the Hornady 40grn V-Max) and possibly deer with a much heavier bullet. About the available parts kits, Model 1 Sales were attempting to make a post ban kit that would be under 50 ounces presumably with a carbon fiber lower (i.e. Hesse), they did'nt have success. If you used both Hesse carbon fiber upper and lower receivers you could probably do it however by time you bought all the other parts you would be into the cost of the Hesse pistol (under $600 dealer from FAC).
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:06:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 5:07:56 AM EST by boeboe]
It sure seems to me handloading would be the way to go to optimize the performance of the Carbon 15 pistol. That muzzle flash/blast is just so intense there has to be a lot of unused powder being wasted there. I'd like to find someone who has done some handloading for theirs and do it myself. I can't help but think a heavier bullet and faster powder would be the way to go. I'd really like one in the 7.62X39 cal, it would seem with the heavier round that would help optimize the preformance. The problem of excess powder burn would seem to be less of an issue, and the caliber (to me) would seem to be more in line with the range one would normally consider using a pistol like this. But who knows if Professional Ordnance is going to finish their project of making one in 7.62X39, and offering it to the public. On building one and getting the weight down below the 50 oz limit, I have considered doing something like this. The Ceramic Metal Matrix (CMM) 80% receivers the Tannery Shop sells are suppose to be 40% stronger than a typical aluminum receiver. In looking at the weight problem I asked William there (at the Tannery Shop) if the CMM lowers would be an option for a pistol. He indicated they would. If they are not already lighter than the aluminum receivers, if they are 40% stronger, it stands to reason a person could "trim the fat" away from one of the CMM receivers and reduce the weight while still keeping it strong enough to do the job. But I'd wonder where the excess material might be removed. I'd also considered that the Carbon 15 pistol is very light, the Type 20 pistol is just 40 oz. Somewhere between the upper and lower receivers, there's 10 additional ounces a person could add, if they wanted to. So suppose for a moment, that a person was wanting a 7.62X39 pistol and already had the Carbon 15 pistol. Suppose he wanted two pistols. What might be possible is to take the CMM lowers along with a Hesse pistol upper and convert the upper to 7.62X39 (if one was not already available, which I don't think it is). If weight looked like it was going to be a problem, put the 7.62 upper on the Carbon 15 lower, and the Carbon 15 upper on the CMM lower. That might help distribute the weight and remian within the 50 oz. limit on both pistols. Just some thoughts.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:53:22 AM EST
BoeBOe, I think I will go ahead and try some IMR 4227 loads with 55 grain bullets (heaviest I have) and see what that does. On your idea of swapping the carbon 15 upper onto the CMM lower, unfortunatley this wont work. If you do some measureing you will find that the takedown pin hole is located lower on the carbon 15 with a correspondingly longer extension on the upper, this way there pistol upper cant be put on a rifle lower (doesnt really make sense to me but that is how they are built). Tahe a look at Oly Arm's post ban pistol, they literally made swiss chess out of it (standard forged lower). If you want an off paper pistol (which would be legal to do) you could swiss out the lower and get a Hesse carbon upper, the barrel could be made by any competent machinest or by a pre-ban kit and rob what you need.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:27:48 AM EST
There has been talk that Cavalry Arms may someday build a pistol lower. Being plastic it should have no problem making weight.
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