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Posted: 1/4/2005 11:46:35 PM EDT
Fired the last 180 rounds of a case of Wolf through my Bushmaster A2 this afternoon. This takes the total round count without cleaning up to 2260. I’m not going to tell you that the gun is in any way clean, it’s actually quite dirty, but I don’t see any signs of any kind of lacquer build up. I’ve read before that a lot of guys won’t use Wolf in their arfs because of the lacquer build up, but I’m not seeing it.

Is there something special I should be looking for? Does it take more rounds than this to get the build up? Is it all a big hoax?


Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:49:15 PM EDT
Are you sure it was the old Wolf with the red ring around the base of the bullet where it meets the casing?
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:51:22 PM EDT
It’s all gone now, but I do believe it had a red ring between the green case and the bullet. I didn’t know that there was an old and new version of the ammo.

Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:53:25 PM EDT
The old stuff, with the red ring, was lacquer and had widely reported problems with the buildup you are wondering about.

The NEW stuff, without the red ring, is polymer and should not pose the same problem.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:58:40 PM EDT
you couldn't physically SEE the build up.
Before I discovered AR15.com I shot wolf all the time. So did a shooting buddy of mine. I cleaned my ARs meticulously after every shooting trip.
Then one day my friend and I were out plinking and an empty casing stuck in my chamber. This had happened before, but this time it wouldn't eject. And my cleaning rod wouldn't budge it. my friend laughed at me and then 10 minutes later the exact same thing happened to him.
We took them in to the gun shop and the gunsmith laughed and said he saw this on a surprisingly frequent basis, only with wolf. He attributed it to the laquer.
Actually, this is sort of a moot point anyways, seeing as how wolf doesnt even laquer coat tehir bullets anymore.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 12:05:04 AM EDT
Like I said, I don’t recall if I had the ammo with the red ring or not, bit I believe I did.

So, if there is a lacquer coating going on in there, how do you get it out?

I’ve been kinda leery about shooting this ammo, but it has worked just fine, if it’s all OK I’d really like to keep shooting it. It’s much less expensive and I don’t have to chase brass.

Link Posted: 1/5/2005 12:11:21 AM EDT
I've only found one website out of dozens that still carries the old lacquer crud.

Wolf even says on their website that they don;t produce that stuff anymore.

The new polymer is still the cheapest ammo you can get and should be perfectly fine to shoot.

As far as removing any lacquer from your rifle now....I don;t know. I'm sure someone else will chime in and help you out.

Check out the ammo link on this site. There is a tacked thread with updated ammo prices from the cheapest dealers on-line.

I just bought 1000 rounds for $100.96 to my door from Sportsman's Guide two days ago.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 12:32:16 AM EDT
If I had had any problems with lacquer, I was figuring on threading the AR chamber brush onto a length of cleaning rod and chucking the other end in my drill. Stick that into the chamber and spin it for a while, and squirt some CLP or lacquer thinner in there from time to time. I figured it’s a Bushmaster with chrome chamber and bore, it won’t get hurt’ don’t know what lacquer thinner would do to the chrome though.

There’s a place here in town that’ll sell the Wolf ammo for $99.95 a case. Being able to shoot my arfs at an AK price!
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 12:44:29 AM EDT
I dig it.

The lowest price in Fort Worth is a crappy $130 BEFORE TAX.

Even though Texas tax is 8.25% and shipping is usually $10 to $15, I still save tax by buying interstate. I just have to find the deals that cover the extra shipping expense.

IE:

Sportsmen's Guide: Base Price $92.97. Shipping $12.99. Coupon ($5.00). Total $100.96 tax exempt.

Overcharging Fort Worth store: Base Price $130.00. Tax $10.73. Total $140.73.

Obvously, the key is watching the ammo link for pricing on this website. I am really greatful for whomever maintains that because it saves me hours of shopping and shopping on-line.

You might buy it on-line cheaper?!? Does Oregon have sales tax?

Link Posted: 1/5/2005 12:57:17 AM EDT
Oregon doesn’t have a sales tax (the lefties and greenie weenies are trying though).

We do get hosed real good on property and income tax.

9% income tax.

$4214 for a 4-bed, 3-bath 2692sqft house on 1.16 acres. If they knew the basement was finished, it’d been more.

I get by the Outdoor Marksman all the time, so I can just stop by and pick up what I need.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 1:27:11 AM EDT
I shoot their 7.62x39 in my SKS and my friend's AK and we've never seen any laquer build up. Sometimes i see the red stuff on my bolt though, it comes right off.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 1:37:11 AM EDT
I know this is off the subject a little, but you know what a bad rep Wolf Ammo has here amoung the AR15 owners right? I just visited RimfireCentral.com to read about 10/22 stuff and low and behold, those guys think Wold ammo (.22 LR) is the shit! Go figure.

I shoot alot of Wolf Ammo through my Russian guns (7.62 X 39) with not much trouble, but when it comes to my AR's I just won't do it. Like what the others said, the way an AR15 is setup it seems much more prone to fouling problems because of the "old" Laquer sealant used on their rounds. I was unaware that Wolf had made changes. Maybe I'll buy some new rounds for my AK and see.

Oh by the way, the laquer buildup issue has a way of sneeking up on you when you least expect it. It happens in the middle of a hot afternoon at the range right when things start getting fun. Heat has everything to do with how much junk is left in the chamber. I just choose not to shoot Wolf through my AR. I think it's great that you have been able to shoot so many through your gun without problems. Have a good one!
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 2:08:57 AM EDT
Could someone post a picture showing Laquer Wolf vs Polymer Wolf?
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 3:16:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2005 3:17:04 AM EDT by FMJ3]

Originally Posted By Atreides:
I know this is off the subject a little, but you know what a bad rep Wolf Ammo has here amoung the AR15 owners right? I just visited RimfireCentral.com to read about 10/22 stuff and low and behold, those guys think Wold ammo (.22 LR) is the shit! Go figure.

I shoot alot of Wolf Ammo through my Russian guns (7.62 X 39) with not much trouble, but when it comes to my AR's I just won't do it. Like what the others said, the way an AR15 is setup it seems much more prone to fouling problems because of the "old" Laquer sealant used on their rounds. I was unaware that Wolf had made changes. Maybe I'll buy some new rounds for my AK and see.

Oh by the way, the laquer buildup issue has a way of sneeking up on you when you least expect it. It happens in the middle of a hot afternoon at the range right when things start getting fun. Heat has everything to do with how much junk is left in the chamber. I just choose not to shoot Wolf through my AR. I think it's great that you have been able to shoot so many through your gun without problems. Have a good one!



Wolf .22 Match ammo is really good stuff, it's made in Germany though (made by SK, in fact the Wolf Match Target is the exact same as SK Standard Plus). It's not exactly cheap like the Russion Wolf centerfire stuff though, just less costly than some of the other Match ammo out there - not much cheaper (the Match Gold is kinda pricey in my estimation, but I just use the lower end Match Target and get 10 round groups in the 1/2"-3/4" area with my 10/22 at 25 yards).
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 3:35:14 AM EDT
Thanks for the info FMJ3!

I'm gonna go out and get me some tomorrow and give 'em a try this weekend!
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 3:58:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 4:30:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zeruel:
Could someone post a picture showing Laquer Wolf vs Polymer Wolf?



Link Posted: 1/5/2005 4:35:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2005 4:37:14 AM EDT by Agcsy]
+1 for what Aimless said. Old wolf had the red sealant around the bullet that could possibly cause problems. It was removed though they did keep the sealant around the primer. People who say that the lacquer came from the casing are full of it.

People in the ammo forum including myself have taken torches to the cases and the stuff doesnt not melt and run. The amount of force required to shave it from the case will also take off chunks of metal from a brass case.

Many people bash wolf but no one can beat it atm for what it is the cheapest plinking ammo out there.

Wolf isnt even the dirtiest ammo i have used. The nastiest stuff i have ever seen was SB SS109 surplus. My entire upper was coated in a bluish green film after firing it.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:12:38 AM EDT
nothing in the chamber?
imagine that...
shoot it up! sleep well at night!
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:20:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ch139:

Is there something special I should be looking for? Does it take more rounds than this to get the build up? Is it all a big hoax?




You have a Bushmaster - it shouldn't be a problem. Most Colts and Bushmasters eat the stuff like popcorn. Nice properly sized CHROME lined chambers....

It's the lesser barrels where you start to see more problems.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:31:12 AM EDT
my rifles eat wolf, not one problem
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:41:53 AM EDT
I've shot lacquered coated steel cased ammo through my Vepr K and AR-15, bolt with chrome lined bores and chambers. I never found any "buildup" at all... The neck sealant, lacquer, whatever you want to call it - I didn't see it period.

Now the polymer coated stuff leaves behind a pinkish red residue in my chamber, but it still doesn't "buildup" and kill your rifles like everyone says.

FWIW I just bought a 500rd case of Russian ammo, and it even has Cyrillic text spray painted on the outside. It's got the evil lacquer coating, red neck sealant, and red primer sealant. My only complaint about this type of ammo is the red primer sealant gets EVERYWHERE in the action. No biggie... but its just my only complaint.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:50:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By longhorn789:
I dig it.

The lowest price in Fort Worth is a crappy $130 BEFORE TAX.

Even though Texas tax is 8.25% and shipping is usually $10 to $15, I still save tax by buying interstate. I just have to find the deals that cover the extra shipping expense.

IE:

Sportsmen's Guide: Base Price $92.97. Shipping $12.99. Coupon ($5.00). Total $100.96 tax exempt.

Overcharging Fort Worth store: Base Price $130.00. Tax $10.73. Total $140.73.

Obvously, the key is watching the ammo link for pricing on this website. I am really greatful for whomever maintains that because it saves me hours of shopping and shopping on-line.

You might buy it on-line cheaper?!? Does Oregon have sales tax?



Ammoman.com
free shipping
fast shipping
no tax if you live in texas.
$115 for a case/1000rnds of Wolf
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:55:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zeruel:
Could someone post a picture showing Laquer Wolf vs Polymer Wolf?



Don't have a pic, but the old laquer coated wolf had a greenish case, the new polymer coated wolf has a grey case.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 9:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2005 9:14:04 AM EDT by marcoh]


The reason you won't see lacquer build-up is because the lacquer was never the problem. The problem was the thick red sealant around the neck which Wolf stopped doing when they switched to the polymer coating.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 9:27:54 AM EDT
I just got two 20 round boxes of the old laquer crap to test in my new M4.

lets see if I can get her to jam.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 9:34:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2005 9:35:56 AM EDT by ch139]
Thanks for the pic marcoh, the stuff I was shooting had a green case and definitely not gray, looked like the round on the right.


Link Posted: 1/5/2005 10:10:42 AM EDT
you are not going to have any problem with it shooting semi-auto, on a full-auto gun you get much more heat buildup, this heat softens and then melts the laquer.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 10:12:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ch139:
Thanks for the pic marcoh...



Anything for a Brother of the Steel Case.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 11:01:31 AM EDT
Shoot it!
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 3:23:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By slidelock1:
you are not going to have any problem with it shooting semi-auto, on a full-auto gun you get much more heat buildup, this heat softens and then melts the laquer.



I think you mean the read sealant breaks apart and melts in the chamber...
the laquer does not melt.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 3:27:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2005 3:28:09 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:30:07 PM EDT
Here's some of my experience with Bernaul:




The case was stuck in the chamber hard enough that I destroyed an aluminum cleaning rod trying to get it out.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 7:42:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 9:30:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
People, use a steel rod to knock out stuck cases. They wont hurt your barrels....If they are chrome lined like they should be!

Yeah, but the steel rods were all at home and there was a cheap aluminum rod available...
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 10:54:00 PM EDT
Man, every dealer here must have old stock! I've yet to see the gray shelled wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 1/5/2005 11:07:02 PM EDT
Steel cases cause greater wear and regardless of the coating it will gum the action. M193 is cheap and a better option without the cause for concern
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 6:38:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Steel cases cause greater wear and regardless of the coating it will gum the action.


Proof we want proof.

How does a mild steel case hurt my Carpenter Steel Bolt or my 4150 steel chromed line barrel>

Thats like saying balsa wood going to mar that Oak...


M193 is cheap and a better option without the cause for concern

M193 is twice the price and getting pretty difficult to find these days- unless you don't mind floor sweepings.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 6:42:14 AM EDT
sorry. false. I have yet to see any wear on my bolt/chamber after 8.5k of Wolf.
look! no wear and tear and no gumming up! WOW!


Link Posted: 1/6/2005 8:47:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Steel cases cause greater wear and regardless of the coating it will gum the action. M193 is cheap and a better option without the cause for concern


I’ve heard things like this before, but it is my understanding that chrome (a chrome lined chamber and bore) is the hardest man-made substance. If this is the case, how would steel wear the chrome, I’d think it would be the opposite; the chrome chamber would wear the steel case.

And as for M193 being cheap, I can certainly afford my fair share, but I can get twice as much if I shoot Wolf.

The concern part is what I'm trying to figure out, and I'm not seeing any reason for concern.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 9:35:05 AM EDT
ch139,
the bottom line is give it a try. If your rifle shoots it fine with no issues you win. If your rifle does not handle it well stop using it.

but try it for at least 500 rds. clean your rifle after each range trip and at the end of the 500 rds inspect your rifle and then make the decision to keep using it or to stop using it.

my above pictures are from a Bushmaster 14.5 barrel (5.56 chamber) with a Bushmaster bolt/RRA carrier combo. as you can see, I clean it well (not anal, but clean) and I inspect it as I clean it. I have not found any damage or wear.

I can tell you that the red sealant around the primer gets all over the place. If the lot you buy has red sealant around the bullet, keep a eye on those.

In MY experience the Wolf Myth is BUSTED!

let us know how it works. post pictures of any damage/wear that you may encounter.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 9:54:32 AM EDT
CB1, thanks for the great pics, I’ll have to get some like those of my rifle.

As I mentioned in my first post, I’ve got an all Bushmaster 20-inch A2 that has just finished digesting 1000 rounds of Wolf ammunition. If I remember correctly, I was shooting the stuff with the red sealant. The rifle was filthy to start with and is now even more so, but has not had any malfunctions. I had just heard all the bad things about Wolf ammunition and have not seen the problems. I’m tempted to clean it, I’m almost feeling like I’m neglecting the weapon, but on the other hand, I’m real temped to go get another case of Wolf ammunition and run it through the rifle.

I’ll probably go get some ammo this afternoon.


Link Posted: 1/6/2005 2:07:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:53:58 AM EDT
CenterFire Systems has Wolf for $109 delivered, through 2/11.
Wolf at CenterfireSystems
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 4:57:47 PM EDT
I just looked at my Wolf 762x39 ammo and it has the red seals. Can anyone tell me if Wolf has really changed their ammo yet? I wouldn't want to buy from online vendor without first seeing it. Maybe it won't cause problems, but if I can get the newer stuff (if there is any) rather than risk possible problems in the future then why not? I am going to the gun show tomorrow and will look at the Wolf ammo.

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:19:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tl511:
I just looked at my Wolf 762x39 ammo and it has the red seals. Can anyone tell me if Wolf has really changed their ammo yet? I wouldn't want to buy from online vendor without first seeing it. Maybe it won't cause problems, but if I can get the newer stuff (if there is any) rather than risk possible problems in the future then why not? I am going to the gun show tomorrow and will look at the Wolf ammo.




Wolf 7.62x39 still has the red sealant they never removed it to my knowledge. I am fairly certain their .223 is the only ammo without it around the bullet. They still seal the primer with it though.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 7:09:17 PM EDT
I have fired 11 cases of Wolf through my ARs: mostly through one in particular. It was all the "old" stuff. I have never fired the "new" stuff, in fact I still have two full cases and a partial case of the old stuff left that I am slowly working my way through.
Through those 11 cases, I don't recall having a single malfunction. I never replaced any parts and never noticed any undue wear on the rifle.
I have fought this battle on other boards for several years: This whole Wolf ammo thing is BS.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CB1:

Originally Posted By slidelock1:
you are not going to have any problem with it shooting semi-auto, on a full-auto gun you get much more heat buildup, this heat softens and then melts the laquer.



I think you mean the read sealant breaks apart and melts in the chamber...
the laquer does not melt.



+1
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