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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 11/22/2002 6:03:44 PM EST
I came in from a field ex to briefly check my email and some other pers adm.
I had an email on my gov't account from a individual (whom I respect) asking me to post something here - which then got me thinking.

I like many here have a small (about 7-10k depending upon the season)amount of personal ammuntion which I use to supplement my military training (where I feel it lacks) and to train for rifle competitions etc.
I don't really view it as a SHTF supply because I guess, as a regular, I would hazard a small guess that I would be working round the clock, or deader than a doornail in a SHTF scenario.

I fully believe in the individuals right to self defence and protection of property but really how much is enough?

When you hear about people saying they would rather keep using M193 because they can get a lot of it and they can't afford to "stock up with better"
Last time I looked Georgia Precision had BH loading like this for a decent price
D223N6 75gr Heavy Match Hollow Point 2750fps 1259ft lbs New - 500 rnds $246.00

How many real rounds do people fire each year?

I typically shoot around 5k of 5.56mm / yr personal ammo
Which would be about $2460 / yr if it was all the 75gr BTHP.

That said I also don't go blasting - I try to ensure each and every round I fire has some sort of value added.

bitter and cynical


Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:06:25 PM EST
Very well put. This changes my thinking about stocking only M193s. I will have to rethink and stock up on some expensive rounds.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:41:54 PM EST
I've always wondered about stockpiling ammo for "SHTF." The same people that talk about "Bug Out" bags sometimes have thousands of rounds saved up. Are you bugging out or digging in? Where and HOW are you going to carry all that ammo? I'd think if the average person had 10 magazines worth they'd [b]more[/b] than have covered any kind of natural disaster or civil disorder. Any other scenario is just wishful thinking. Not having been in the military, Ive never had to lug more than 2 spare 30's around with me, and if I have to "bug out" I've probably got enough room in my vehicle for 1 rifle and a couple mags and some other essentials after I pack up the kids. (Wouldnt I feel stupid loading up all my ammo, a half dozen guns and 6 months of MRE's and medical supplies and then realizing I didnt account for packing up the family - not to mention I dont have the option of going anywhere, Id be busy too). I currently have about 3K in 5.56 stashed around here, and burn up at least 3000 rounds of personal ammo annually. I look at is as my training stockpile, not anything else.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 7:35:26 PM EST
I "stockpile" ammo becuase it is currently cheap and available. in the future, depending on which way the political winds blow, it may be neither. If tomorrow morning I wake up and read in the newspaper that I could never purchase another round of centerfire rifle ammo, I dont need to be concerned. Becuase I already have enough on hand for me and my kids to shoot regularly for the rest of our lives.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 6:44:04 AM EST
I keep a few calibers in stock all the time, but don't stockpile any for "long term storage." First In First Out (FIFO) is the rule with ammo. Storing commercial ammo for a long time has few risks; storing military ammo has even less risk. The research is still on going for the ideal 5.56mm rifle cartridge -- took 40 years to get it stated, so I'd give it another year or so before buying lots of Black Hills anything. In everyone's zeal to jump on the heavy bullet concept I've not seen anyone discuss the loss of a flat battlesight zero. When fired from the M4 Carbine (the US Army's principal infantry rifle and the reason behind all this research) the 75gr bullets have a mid range trajectory of about 9" or 10" when zeroed at standard 300 meters, the lowest position marked on the rear sights. Shooting 10" high at 150 meters makes hitting heads over barricates much more difficult than it should be. Still no magic bullet. And still no available milspec 75gr cartridges. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 8:36:36 AM EST
I think I have to agree with AR15fan. Everything else is just gravy.......IOW, I'd stockpile IMI M193, Federal XM193, & Winchester Q3131/Q3131A any way just because who knows? There was a time you could buy all you wanted and few did....now it's cheap and available. PigPen
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 9:02:43 PM EST
Okay I guess I missed a reason why people gather ammo. AR15Fan - excellent point Chuck - Sir, I just don't buy the BZ reason as a reason not to go for the 75's - I have shot both out of both the 10.5's and the 14.5's - I found out the hard way about the nasty 500m drop on the heavier bullets. back later
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:48:45 AM EST
I don't think I have more than 500 rounds loaded in any caliber at 1 time. Since I'm a cave man I use. Winchester 55 gr. FMJ / 5.56mm / Q3131A and Winchester 147 gr FMJ / 7.62mm / Q3130 and Remington Golden Saber 230 gr HP / 45Auto / GS45APB. My weapons are zeroed for this stuff and I can hit what I'm aiming at with it so I'll stick with it.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:57:22 AM EST
High velocity is critical to battlesight riflery. Without it soldiers have to make constant range estimations, a skill hard to acquire and even harder to apply when the targets shoot back. On KD ranges one just dials in the right settings on the sight and shoots X rings, but that requires knowing the exact distance -- a reason laser range finders are part of US military sniper team equipment. The mid range trajectory for current 5.56mm ammo is too high as is, slowing the bullet just makes it worse. Despite a century with smokeless powder the combat engagement ranges haven't changed much, most of it is under 100 meters. This makes a 300 meter battlesight a liability, not an asset. I'm in favor of this research but they gotta find a way to keep the muzzle velocities up if soldiers are going to hit any thing with the bullets they shoot. 9" high at 175 meters makes it tough to hit targets. Less than 2" high at that range increases hit probability dramatically. The Hall Study of the early 1950s advocated the abandoment of .30 caliber weapons long before even 7.62mm NATO was adopted. (Gotta admire Hall's research in the pre-computer era, all the charts are hand drawn on graph paper.) Low recoil impulse and flat trajectory make target hits, the reason for this exercise, much more likely. Couple this with a lighter cartridge to allow soldiers to carry many more cartridges and you get an expotential increase in effectiveness. A 30 round magazine of 77gr cartridges weighs an once more than one with 62gr, so that's a fine trade off, but they gotta get the velocity back up to keep the hit factor high. Currently giving away 500fps on these cartridges. There's no trajectory issue at 100 meters, but the research is aimed at increasing wounding potential at much, much longer ranges (even though there ain't any targets out there). -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:23:13 AM EST
One other issue pops to mind with the 75gr cartridges. We don't really have a lot of information on them. So far, I know that 75gr still fragments reliably at around 2400fps. However, with a 16" barrel it is starting at 2616fps (according to Bushmaster's stats on Hornady TAP - [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm[/url]). Using my ballistics calculator, that shows that the round is under 2400fps by 95yds. So what am I really gaining with the 75gr? A 15% better chance of yawing (assuming TAP yaws and fragments 100% of the time) and 20gr heavier projectile? As far as zero goes, the same ballistics calculator [url]http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm[/url] shows that with a 50yd zero, the 75gr Heavy Match is never more than 2.6" off the line of sight from 0-223yds. However, with an Army 300m zero the trajectory does get pretty ugly.
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