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Posted: 9/10/2004 4:05:28 PM EST

I intend to make one of my next purchases a .22lr upper or conversion for my new Colt AR-15 M4. I have heard conflicting reports about uppers vs. conversion kits, and would appreciate any advice or info you have.

A few things: Hicap mags are most definitely a plus. Right now, the Bushmaster lower only comes with a 10-rnd mag, and I have not heard back yet from them regarding whether or not hicaps are in the works. I HAVE, however, heard that Ceiner is sitting on a ton of .22lr hicaps which will immediately be for sale come Tuesday morning. Also, I intend to purchase a .22lr suppressor, for use on this upper/conversion kit as well as my Walther P22. Without knowing any better, I assume that a standard M4 upper will have a permantently attached flashhider, which will not allow me to mount the suppressor. This makes me lean towards the Bushy upper, since it has no flashhider of any sort, which will allow me to easily thread the barrel, without complications. Also, that will not mar the look of my M4 upper reciever.

Lastly, I will be firing lots of Aguila SSS ammo out of this setup, and I have already heard that this ammo will not feed reliably in the M261 conversion kit, one of which is for sale on the EE currently.

So what I need is advice on which way to go. Both the Ceiner kit and Bushmaster upper have advantages to them, so I need some more experienced hands to guide me in the right direction. Thanks.

Link Posted: 9/10/2004 5:19:20 PM EST
Aguila SSS was very reliable in my M261, accuracy only fair in comparison to a "real" .22. But if you're gonna shoot that CRAP you're better off with a conversion because they work best in 1:9 barrels and the dedicated .22 uppers have 1:16 barrels.

I'm very happy with my DPMS .22 upper and I've gotten some good groups with a M261 in a 1:12 barrel but when the last of the 100 rounds of SSS I bought has gone through my 1:9 upper I'm not buying any more of the expensive stinky crap.

But you do what you want. I've discovered that people usually do, anyway.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:37:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Snake45:
Aguila SSS was very reliable in my M261, accuracy only fair in comparison to a "real" .22. But if you're gonna shoot that CRAP you're better off with a conversion because they work best in 1:9 barrels and the dedicated .22 uppers have 1:16 barrels.

I'm very happy with my DPMS .22 upper and I've gotten some good groups with a M261 in a 1:12 barrel but when the last of the 100 rounds of SSS I bought has gone through my 1:9 upper I'm not buying any more of the expensive stinky crap.

But you do what you want. I've discovered that people usually do, anyway.



Interesting. I hadn't heard anything bad about the SSS until now. So, it isn't very accurate? How quiet is it when unsuppressed? How about when suppressed?

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:26:56 AM EST
Take a look at Kuehl Precision www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/. It uses the Ciener conversion as a base so that you have possible access to hi cap mags, but uses a special barrel that does away with the unrifled chamber adapter. The M4 style upper is also available in a pre-ban config for suppressor attachment.

This will probably be a bit more than the other options, but I think you'll get all the features you want plus a true 22lr barrel for extra accuracy to boot.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 9:12:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 9:13:26 AM EST by Snake45]

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:

Originally Posted By Snake45:
Aguila SSS was very reliable in my M261, accuracy only fair in comparison to a "real" .22. But if you're gonna shoot that CRAP you're better off with a conversion because they work best in 1:9 barrels and the dedicated .22 uppers have 1:16 barrels.

I'm very happy with my DPMS .22 upper and I've gotten some good groups with a M261 in a 1:12 barrel but when the last of the 100 rounds of SSS I bought has gone through my 1:9 upper I'm not buying any more of the expensive stinky crap.

But you do what you want. I've discovered that people usually do, anyway.



Interesting. I hadn't heard anything bad about the SSS until now. So, it isn't very accurate? How quiet is it when unsuppressed? How about when suppressed?



No idea about the latter. It's about as loud as any other common subsonic .22, I guess. In a 1:9 barel it's about as accurate as mediocre .22LR bulk stuff in a 1:16. It's expensive and smells like a carnival food stand on fire. Some have said it shoots sparks out the ejection port but I didn't have that with mine. Some shooting it in common 1:16 barrels have seen keyholing and other accuracy problems; others have had good luck with it.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:18:22 PM EST
Ah, 60gr SSS. A while back I tried it in 2 different Marlin bolt-actions. At 50 yards one was keyholing and barely keeping it on the 8.5x11 paper at 50yds and the other couldn't even keep it on the paper. The one that stayed on the paper at 50 was also keyholing at 25yds. I've heard reports of it working in some regular rifles, but have not seen it. I would not count on it working in a dedicated upper with the normal 1/16 twist.

I ran 3 across the chrono with a Ciener in a 16" 1/8 barrel and it didn't keyhole at 25 yards, but 1 of the 3 jammed. I didn't aim for accuracy, just checked for keyholing. IIRC from years back I ran some in a 20" 1/9 barrel with the Ciener and accuracy was no better than any other .22 ammo but it didn't keyhole. I did see the sparks at the ejection port.

Bottom line is I see no reason to use the SSS when this box is gone. It was pretty quiet though. Maybe quieter than other subsonics, but I wasn't really listening for that. I'd stick with the 40gr CCI Subsonic HP myself.


There are other threads on here about Ciener selling hi-caps again. Bushmaster has said they will make hi-caps for theirs, but I haven't seen anything since the ban ended about when they'll be available. Last I heard DPMS said they won't make hi-caps but somebody in England would make some if the ban died. No word on when or how much.

So if hi-caps are the most important, go with the Ciener kit or an upper that's based on it like the KKF or Kuehl. If you can wait, you might want to see what happens with the BM or DPMS. DPMS is probably your most cost-effective choice.

If your M4 is a 14.5" barrel the FH will be permanently attached and you won't be able to put the suppressor on it. If it's a 16" then you should be able to take the FH off and put the suppressor on--assuming the P22 can uses the same threads. Kuehl and DPMS both make M4 style uppers with 16" barrels and threaded muzzles for a regular FH or a suppressor. Both also make post-ban style with bare muzzle you can thread to match the P22 can if it's different.
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