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Posted: 9/18/2017 12:06:37 PM EDT
[#1]
As for the buffer tube, make sure you buy a Colt. They are the only correct mil-spec 7075 rifle buffer tubes out there.
The barrels are made by Ballistic Advantage and everything checks out except the barrels do not come with the round A1 FSP but instead come with the standard square A2 FSP and the FSB is not phosphate finished like the rest of the barrel, it is instead done in a Black Oxide finish. Also, all of the Ballistic Advantage barrels that I have checked the head space on so far will not take the "GO" gauge. The Brownells A1 uppers and lowers are black anodized and the current "blem" batch of A1 lowers have the selector markings on the right side of the lower as well as the left side. The buttplate of the just released Brownells A1 stock does not have any polymer over-molded metal reinforcing where the upper stock screw goes through as far as I can tell. |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 4:22:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quick question, how "retro appropriate" are all of the M16A1 parts at Brownells? By that, I mean, proper materials for buffer tube, barrel features, etc for the era. The reason I ask is, I was pricing some of the odds/ends parts out at BCM and planning to get the big ticket items such as lower, upped, furniture kit, barrel from Brownells. Thanks! The question is, how correct do you want to be? Do you just want to build a M16A1 that just for the looks or do you want to build one as correct as you can? In any event, the Brownells parts are just fine for a build. Many of the parts have the correct look that you would want, but not all are correct USGI type parts. There are some slight differences in the handguards, stock (which is a D type repro), and pistol grip. The receivers are correct 603 type receivers, but they are finished in black. The barrels (which are fantastic BTW) are available in 1/12 (correct twist) and 1/7 and are made by Ballistic Advantage (good company). The other parts (buffer tube, buffer, buffer spring, teardrop forward assist, A1 rear sight assembly, A1 front sight post, and LPK) Brownells has are just fine. You will need to source an A1 port door assembly. All in all, you can assemble a decent M16A1 clone with products from Brownells. |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 5:06:15 PM EDT
[#3]
I've been doing a little pricing and it should run around $900 not including fax. Shipping free as of right now. Not looking to have an entirely correct clone as I've heard that's quite hard and/or expensive....but from the limited research I've done....The Brownells stuff looks decent. Decent and partially correct in some aspects, as you guys have noted.
How are their BCGs by the way? I do also plan on going with a 1/12 twist despite a 1/7 being the same price. Only plan on using my bulk 55gr freedom pills. Otherwise, any other suggestions? Didn't see any lower part kits I liked off Brownells and found one at Midway (AR Stoner). |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 6:09:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been doing a little pricing and it should run around $900 not including fax. Shipping free as of right now. Not looking to have an entirely correct clone as I've heard that's quite hard and/or expensive....but from the limited research I've done....The Brownells stuff looks decent. Decent and partially correct in some aspects, as you guys have noted. How are their BCGs by the way? I do also plan on going with a 1/12 twist despite a 1/7 being the same price. Only plan on using my bulk 55gr freedom pills. Otherwise, any other suggestions? Didn't see any lower part kits I liked off Brownells and found one at Midway (AR Stoner). |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 6:29:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Brownell's stuff is good to go! I am using one of their 1/12 chrome lined pencil barrels and a green M16A1 stock set for my faux-601 build. As for ammo, I have several thousand M193 Federal/Lake City I keep on hand. I have a Costa Mesa AR180 with a 1/12 barrel and my soon to be faux-601.
I have seen the terminal effects of M193 55 grn FMJBT in the wild in my LEO career (that was all we used, back in the day). It is nasty, and VERY lethal from 20 inch rifles at 3300 fps. In my opinion a verst close second to MK262 MOD1 77 grain OTMs that the Spec Ops boys use (and I use in my 16" Middy M4gery Home defense carbine with a 1/8 twist). |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 4:42:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Great information guys. As for price, what do you think? Also, I'm happy to see many can attest to the Brownells quality and durability. I felt quite tempted to get a DD or BCM bolt carrier group but couldn't turn my back on the $100-110 for Brownells. I'm thinking I'm gonna get started on this build now, the retro thing is kinda cool.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:15:49 PM EDT
[#7]
There are two basic classes of retro. The first I will name "Class One": everything is Colt and GI, except the stripped lower - usually a NDS lower. I did this with my SP1 Carbine clone. The only non-Colt part was the stripped lower.
The second, I will call "Class Two": It is a replica. This you use aftermarket pencil barrels and parts, and even a NDS or Brownells M16A1 upper receiver. It will look and function the same as a Class One, but will be slightly less authentic on minor issues: port door, black finish instead of gray finish, etc,. First reports on the Brownells M16 new production retro furniture are pretty good. Brownells has chrome lined 1/12 pencil, barrels that are top notch, and in my opinion as good as USGI, but half the price. I have a black set and a green set headed my way. It is certainly cheaper than GI. A good set of GI furniture will set you back 3X to 4X as much as the Brownells made stuff.. My 601 (or 602) clone will be 1/12 Chrome lined Brownell's barrel, a Fulton Armory slick side chrome bolt carrier, a Stag chrome bolt, a Brownell's furniture set, an early square forge SP upper, and a NDS 601 lower. LPK is all Colt. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 12:16:28 PM EDT
[#8]
I agree, for sure. If I were to build a straight clone with authenticity, I would probably rarely use it. I don't really like the idea of spending a bunch of money and not using something, haha. Although that is very situational, this build won't be all that much money and is my first...so she will see some use. I dig the decent parts and homage people are giving them, too. Makes it easier to go all in. You guys have some pictures as well?
By the way, I went with an AR Stiner lpk. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 12:42:24 PM EDT
[#9]
I am using parts from brownells. I bought a blem lower since it was on sale. It’s going to be a shooter, and I’m going more for appearance and function, not 100% by the book authenticity so the safety markings on the right side of the lower don’t bother me. A modern dust cover will serve as a substitute for a older one, since I can’t find one. Other wise my build is going to be pretty representative of an A1.
I used a CMMG parts kit for my lower. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 3:09:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Build whatever you will enjoy. I have done many clones over the years, and none are super accurate. But you know what, they are still very unique. I've never been to the range or out shooting at a pit and seen another with a retro rifle. I will encourage those who are building one to think about making it gray though, gray rifles really stand out in a sea of black AR's. Norrell's Molyresin is sorta easy to apply, and for those who don't want to go that route there are numerous places that do nice work with Cerakote.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 4:03:04 PM EDT
[#11]
My Stag Arms lower and Mid-length upper M4gery are black. The new 602 is on an early NDS-601 lower, and an early square forge Sp1 upper. Both are a pleasing XM grey. The black Brownell's furniture and 1/12 chrome lined Brownell's barrel look awesome against the grey!
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Posted: 9/24/2017 6:02:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build whatever you will enjoy. I have done many clones over the years, and none are super accurate. But you know what, they are still very unique. I've never been to the range or out shooting at a pit and seen another with a retro rifle. I will encourage those who are building one to think about making it gray though, gray rifles really stand out in a sea of black AR's. Norrell's Molyresin is sorta easy to apply, and for those who don't want to go that route there are numerous places that do nice work with Cerakote. http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/charlesschenkbecher/Mobile%20Uploads/20170924_120556_zpsyevaa7jq.jpg What color Norrell's did you use on the receivers? Thanks |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 1:04:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They look great! What color Norrell's did you use on the receivers? Thanks I sprayed all four of those with MolyResin in "Grayish-Black Flat". That's the name of the color, kinda weird name, but it is a very very close match to a slabside Colt that I have. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 1:06:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My Stag Arms lower and Mid-length upper M4gery are black. The new 602 is on an early NDS-601 lower, and an early square forge Sp1 upper. Both are a pleasing XM grey. The black Brownell's furniture and 1/12 chrome lined Brownell's barrel look awesome against the grey! 
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Posted: 9/25/2017 6:00:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you! I posted that pic hoping to inspire some to do their rifles in gray. I sprayed all four of those with MolyResin in "Grayish-Black Flat". That's the name of the color, kinda weird name, but it is a very very close match to a slabside Colt that I have. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:49:18 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm interested in this resin deal but am hesitant for sure. Still have yet to receive my lower but obviously the best time to cost it would be before assembly lol. How durable is the coating?
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Posted: 9/26/2017 9:15:26 AM EDT
[#17]
MolyResin is very durable. It does wear, but so does anodizing. In places like the magwell the wear is the most prominent. I'll take some pics this evening when I get off of work.
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Posted: 9/26/2017 12:10:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Bit of an afterthought as well but what kind of specialized tools will I need? An AR armorer's wrench? How do I know proper torque specs when assembling.
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Posted: 9/26/2017 12:16:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bit of an afterthought as well but what kind of specialized tools will I need? An AR armorer's wrench? How do I know proper torque specs when assembling. Also, check this thread here. > Link. For standard barrel nuts get the barrel wrenches from 2 Unique LLC and don't even consider anything else. 
The Windham Weaponry Barreling Jig is also worth looking into. 30 to 80 foot pounds for a (standard) barrel nut. 35 to 39 foot pounds for a (rifle) receiver extension. 15 to 20 foot pounds for either a 3 prong, A1 or A2 flash suppressor should be adequate. Use a graphite free moly grease/paste on the threads of the barrel for the muzzle device, receiver extension and upper receiver. Also, don't forget to grease the outward facing flange of the barrel extension... Greasing the flange is a very important step in the assembly process that is rarely mentioned. |
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Posted: 9/27/2017 10:59:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check this thread here. > Link. Also, check this thread here. > Link. For standard barrel nuts get the barrel wrenches from 2 Unique LLC and don't even consider anything else.
The Windham Weaponry Barreling Jig is also worth looking into. 30 to 80 foot pounds for a (standard) barrel nut. 35 to 39 foot pounds for a (rifle) receiver extension. 15 to 20 foot pounds for either a 3 prong, A1 or A2 flash suppressor should be adequate. Use a graphite free moly grease/paste on the threads of the barrel for the muzzle device, receiver extension and upper receiver. Also, don't don't forget to grease the outward facing flange of the barrel extension... Greasing the flange is a very important step in the assembly process that is rarely mentioned. |
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Posted: 9/28/2017 9:36:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Also, does anyone have information on whether the Brownells rifle buffer tube kit includes the proper length screw for their A1 retro stock?
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Posted: 9/28/2017 10:06:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, does anyone have information on whether the Brownells rifle buffer tube kit includes the proper length screw for their A1 retro stock? |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 11:55:00 PM EDT
[#23]
But is it the proper length? I read somewhere it was an A2 stock appropriate length.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:02:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But is it the proper length? I read somewhere it was an A2 stock appropriate length. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 10:12:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. It has the short screw. The buffer tube kit is currently out of stock. You may want to contact Brownells to see when they expect to have them available again. Another option is to place a backorder for one. Edit: Are you referencing the Brownells rifle buffer kit? If so, back in stock. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 12:41:58 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right on, cool. I was lucky enough to get the rifle buffer kit before then. Although I should have backordered the upper receiver before they flat out went AWOL. Edit: Are you referencing the Brownells rifle buffer kit? If so, back in stock. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 2:34:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Short screw is included with the Brownell's buttstock.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 2:53:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Short screw is included with the Brownell's buttstock. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 3:01:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Short screw is included with the Brownell's buttstock. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:22:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 11:13:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Referencing the COLT AR-15/M16 A1 RIFLE BUFFER TUBE ASSEMBLY at Brownells. The Brownells kit is in stock. Judging from the picture, it does appear to have the A2 buttstock screw. You will need a short screw for the Brownells M16A1 buttstock. |
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Posted: 10/8/2017 9:53:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As for the buffer tube, make sure you buy a Colt. They are the only correct mil-spec 7075 rifle buffer tubes out there. The barrels are made by Ballistic Advantage and everything checks out except the barrels do not come with the round A1 FSP but instead come with the standard square A2 FSP and the FSB is not phosphate finished like the rest of the barrel, it is instead done in a Black Oxide finish. Also, all of the Ballistic Advantage barrels that I have checked the head space on so far will not take the "GO" gauge. The Brownells A1 uppers and lowers are black anodized and the current "blem" batch of A1 lowers have the selector markings on the right side of the lower as well as the left side. The buttplate of the just released Brownells A1 stock does not have any polymer over-molded metal reinforcing where the upper stock screw goes through as far as I can tell. Isn't that a show stopper? |
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Posted: 10/8/2017 10:25:25 PM EDT
[#33]
That's interesting. My Brownell's barrel eats everything, both .223 and 5.56. I have used M193, Federal 233, and even a few M855 rounds.
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Posted: 10/8/2017 11:28:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, all of the Ballistic Advantage barrels that I have checked the head space on so far will not take the "GO" gauge. Isn't that a show stopper? |
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Posted: 10/14/2017 8:40:39 AM EDT
[#35]
@556cliff...
What's the significance or was it just a fluke? I see alot of praise with these barrels. |
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Posted: 10/14/2017 10:23:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's interesting. My Brownell's barrel eats everything, both .223 and 5.56. I have used M193, Federal 233, and even a few M855 rounds. |
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Posted: 10/14/2017 3:56:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@556cliff... What's the significance or was it just a fluke? I see a lot of praise with these barrels. I have only checked the headspace on one Brownells/Ballistic Advantage 20" 1/7 A1 barrel so far but it also failed both of my GO gauges with a Colt bolt from a Colt 6940. I have two more of these barrels to check and I suspect that they will fail in the same way. My gauges are marked 5.56 NATO and were made by Manson Reamers. On a different note I had a Windham Weaponry 20" 1/7 A2 barrel fail both of my NO-GO gauges with a Seekins Precision bolt. FWIW, I have had no issues checking the headspace on Colt barrels. |
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Posted: 10/14/2017 6:52:53 PM EDT
[#38]
I have used two of the Brownells/Ballistic Advantage 20" 1/12 barrels and have had no issues with them whatsoever. Both are very accurate and chamber and shoot M193 ammo very well.
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Posted: 10/14/2017 8:01:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen your other post on the performance of the Brownells M16A1 barrel, curious as to whether or not you checked head space as well. If so, what gauge? |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 9:31:09 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first Ballistic Advantage barrel that I checked the headspace on was one of their 16" pencil carbine barrels. I returned it for not passing my GO gauge with a LMT Enhanced bolt and because it had a dimple inside the barrel on the opposite side of the gas port from when they over-drilled it. They said that they checked the headspace with their gauges and they all passed but they did end up replacing the barrel anyway. The replacement barrel also failed my GO gauge with two LMT Enhanced bolts and two Colt bolts... I returned that barrel as well and they checked it with their gauges and they all passed again. So I bought a bolt from Ballistic Advantage and had them make sure that it passed their headspace gauges before they sent everything back to me. I again checked the headspace with their bolt that they passed with their gauges and it failed my GO gauge. I have only checked the headspace on one Brownells/Ballistic Advantage 20" 1/7 A1 barrel so far but it also failed both of my GO gauges with a Colt bolt from a Colt 6940. I have two more of these barrels to check and I suspect that they will fail in the same way. My gauges are marked 5.56 NATO and were made by Manson Reamers. On a different note I had a Windham Weaponry 20" 1/7 A2 barrel fail both of my NO-GO gauges with a Seekins Precision bolt. FWIW, I have had no issues checking the headspace on Colt barrels. On another note, I plan on running a Daniel Defense BCG with this retro build. Where can I get one of your gauges just to have one and check my build? |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 11:36:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to sound like an ass but is there a chance your gauge is the problem? On another note, I plan on running a Daniel Defense BCG with this retro build. Where can I get one of your gauges just to have one and check my build? Manson Reamers is where I got them, one set cost $100.00. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 9:42:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought so to at first, that's why I bought the second set of gauges to verify the first set. Manson Reamers is where I got them, one set cost $100.00. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 10:38:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build whatever you will enjoy. I have done many clones over the years, and none are super accurate. But you know what, they are still very unique. I've never been to the range or out shooting at a pit and seen another with a retro rifle. I will encourage those who are building one to think about making it gray though, gray rifles really stand out in a sea of black AR's. Norrell's Molyresin is sorta easy to apply, and for those who don't want to go that route there are numerous places that do nice work with Cerakote. http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/charlesschenkbecher/Mobile%20Uploads/20170924_120556_zpsyevaa7jq.jpg |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 11:28:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ohh sorry, missed where you mentioned buying a second set. What would be the most affordable set of gauges? Looking for something that isn't crazy expensive lol. Here is a set of gauges that is a little more affordable. > Link. However, the gauges in the link seem to be .223 gauges. I had a hard time finding 5.56 gauges when I was looking to buy a set originally and Manson seemed to be the only option that I could find that actually had both 5.56 and .223. |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 12:16:36 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would agree that most retro builds are not "Match accurate", though I usually have gotten 1.5 to 2.0 MOA from most. This Brownell's 1/12 chrome lined pencil barrel on my 601/602 build, however, does 1 MOA all day long with iron sights from a good rest using Federal/Lake City M193. That's great accuracy in anyone's book. Back in about 1989, I had a "SAK MP CHROME BORE" that did .5 MOA! |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 9:47:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did not mean the accuracy of the barrel, but the accuracy of the clone. My retro's shoot more accurately than I do! |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 10:04:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did not mean the accuracy of the barrel, but the accuracy of the clone. My retro's shoot more accurately than I do! |
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