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Posted: 8/29/2004 11:31:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 9:50:23 AM EST by Aimless]
We had a little Oregon arf.com shoot on Saturday; tons of fun, but Mr45auto had his Cav Arms lower come apart on him. I’ve kinda been eyeing these lowers for a light weight build, but had never heard of anything like this before. Anyone have any thoughts on it?




I added Russell's post from page 2, hope no one minds-Aimless



Response from Cav Arms
I already discussed this with the customer, and he is sending it to us for a free replacement.

This customer was the first ever to successfully use a .45 ACP upper on one of our lowers for extended firing, after he had fabricated a magazine block for it.

I believe the problem lies in that a standard carbine buffer and spring were used with the upper. The violence of the action cycling beat the receiver apart. A heavier weight buffer and spring will be required for it to function correctly without damaging the lower. It is unfortunate that it happenned to him, but at least we now know this combination can create an unsafe condition and we will advise customers that a heavier buffer and spring are required for use with .45 ACP uppers.


Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:32:50 PM EST
First I have heard of it. I want to hear more on this.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:52:14 PM EST
Geez, I was in the market for a colorful addition but this is tagged so I can hear more.

Doesn't look good. The whole plastic thing freaks me out.

- BG
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:09:06 AM EST
HOLY SHIT!

Need more info!


Who got buttstroked?



I'm pretty sure CavArms will replace that thing, and they'll wanna know what happened more than anyone. I assume he's gonna call them tomorrow?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:32:31 AM EST
was this built with a CAR buffer, or a rifle buffer?

looks like the back of the gas key was impacting the top of the reciever "extention" above the buffer.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:27:42 AM EST
So does he have to register it as a pistol lower now? That picture demonstrates one of the main reasons I haven't bought one of those yet.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:51:32 AM EST
OUCH!!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:20:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
OUCH!!



+1
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:26:06 AM EST
Be more specific. What does "come apart on him" mean? What were the circumstances surrounding this?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:37:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Be more specific. What does "come apart on him" mean? What were the circumstances surrounding this?



Agreed. I would like details.

EVen if it was a failure of the material, I would still not hesitate to buy one. Flaws in the material or construction happen to all manufacturers. Considering Cav Arms has been around for a few years and they probably have a large number of receviers out there. plus this being the first time i have ever seen or heard of such an incident, it tells me this was one of those one-in-a-million flaws that could have happened to any other manufacturer as well. I wouldn't freak out over it. No one got hurt, I'm sure Cav Arms will make it right, and the odds are this type of thing would only happen in one out of every few thousand receviers if at all so i would say don't let this stop you from buying one.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:03:55 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:06:37 AM EST
Super glue?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:09:22 AM EST
That will buff out.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:42:26 AM EST
My first Cav Arms lower split at the rear of the mag well on the seam. Not catastrophic like yours, just a small crack. I just sent it back and they sent me a new one with the same serial number. Just call them up and tell them you want it replaced, they will give you repair order.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:45:55 AM EST
Damn............now you have an excuse for a AR pistol after Sept 13th
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:52:41 AM EST
It was the EO Tech that broke his lower....Stuff like this is why I am an avid Aimpoint user




Semper Fi
Jeff
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:55:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:
First I have heard of it. I want to hear more on this.




+1
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:24:03 AM EST
Has CavArms been contacted yet? That would be a good idea...

I would be interested in hearing the events that led up to its "coming apart". AFAIK, there is no seam there, so there must have been some...interesting...forces involved.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:29:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
That will buff out.



You beat me to it! Was he trying to relive his ARMY bayonet fighting training days?

BUTTSTROKE! DOH!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:53:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 4:53:39 AM EST by mjohn3006]

Originally Posted By USMC03:
It was the EO Tech that broke his lower....Stuff like this is why I am an avid Aimpoint user




Semper Fi
Jeff



OMG
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:06:02 AM EST


Nothing a little duct tape won't fix. Good as new!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:06:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 5:16:59 AM EST by gotm4]
That'll fix it. I saw some desert colored duct tape down at Camp Lejeune NC the week before last! It'll match perfectly. Maybe a little Krazy Glue!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:10:53 AM EST
guerilla glue
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:36:45 AM EST
I would like to hear all the details on this failure. It looks to me like it failed at the rear takedown pin. Possibly a huge hit on the top/rear of the buttstock? I'd like to hear all the details and I'd like for Cav Arms to be contacted immediately so they can begin to determine the cause of this failure.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:38:21 AM EST
I am sort of thinking the same as knightone, its probably a 1 in a million thing. Still, DAMN, that aint good! That aint a DAMN bit good at all!! I am sorry to hear that happened. He should definitely contact the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:52:37 AM EST
Ouch, that can't be good.

Good news! My dad's a TV repair man and he has an Awesome set of tool. Dude, we can fix it!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:55:14 AM EST
has to be a fluke, lots of people have and use them with no problems, but we do need to hear more, and get more pics, closeups of the stock where it broke, and above the buffer tube, the buffer itself, and the rear of the carrier key
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:56:20 AM EST
Cav Arms will make it right
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:04:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mugzilla:
Cav Arms will make it right



yep - guaranteed for life!
mp
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:23:25 AM EST
reposted image since all I was getting was a red X for the original pic:

I agree I think that willl buff out with a little epoxy and sandpaper...



Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:36:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:24:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 7:24:36 AM EST by _DR]
You know this makes me think. For metals, they have procedure for testing the integrity of the metal, for instance a forged steel gun part can be magnafluxed for cracks or weaknesses. How would you go about testing a polymer receiver for structural integrity? Could you X-ray it? or would this only show fractures and not weak spots that had not cracked? Could you ultrasound test it for density variations?

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:28:08 AM EST
Tag
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:29:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By fixer:
was this built with a CAR buffer, or a rifle buffer?

looks like the back of the gas key was impacting the top of the reciever "extention" above the buffer.



+1

especially considering where/how it broke
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:07:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Trey-W:

Originally Posted By fixer:
was this built with a CAR buffer, or a rifle buffer?

looks like the back of the gas key was impacting the top of the reciever "extention" above the buffer.



+1

especially considering where/how it broke



Is there enough room to get a rifle buffer in there and still have the carrier cycle?

Tagged to see what the outcome is though.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:17:15 AM EST
hot ammo...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:20:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By fixer:
was this built with a CAR buffer, or a rifle buffer?

looks like the back of the gas key was impacting the top of the reciever "extention" above the buffer.



Could be but none of my rifles nor carbines will allow the carrier to go that far back when assembled because the buffer and spring prevent it from going that far back. When disassembled yes you can pull the carrier that far back.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:20:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
hot ammo...



I was going to blame it on reloads!

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:24:05 AM EST
uhhh, ohhhhhh....
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:42:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 8:47:33 AM EST by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:43:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By LordStoner:
Good news! My dad's a TV repair man and he has an Awesome set of tool. Dude, we can fix it!



That's my SKULL!!

Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:53:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:00:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
I already discussed this with the customer, and he is sending it to us for a free replacement.

This customer was the first ever to successfully use a .45 ACP upper on one of our lowers for extended firing, after he had fabricated a magazine block for it.

I believe the problem lies in that a standard carbine buffer and spring were used with the upper. The violence of the action cycling beat the receiver apart. A heavier weight buffer and spring will be required for it to function correctly without damaging the lower. It is unfortunate that it happenned to him, but at least we now know this combination can create an unsafe condition and we will advise customers that a heavier buffer and spring are required for use with .45 ACP uppers.



Good to know, since I plan on geting one of your lowers an putting a 45 upper on it.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:02:15 AM EST
I don’t know too much about it, I was shooting next to Mr45auto and things were going along just fine and the next thing I know, he’s got his weapon in two pieces. I don’t think he was hurt in any way which is the most important thing, but his lower is sure busted up. Hopefully he’ll stop by and give us the particulars.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:04:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
I already discussed this with the customer, and he is sending it to us for a free replacement.

This customer was the first ever to successfully use a .45 ACP upper on one of our lowers for extended firing, after he had fabricated a magazine block for it.

I believe the problem lies in that a standard carbine buffer and spring were used with the upper. The violence of the action cycling beat the receiver apart. A heavier weight buffer and spring will be required for it to function correctly without damaging the lower. It is unfortunate that it happenned to him, but at least we now know this combination can create an unsafe condition and we will advise customers that a heavier buffer and spring are required for use with .45 ACP uppers.



This sounds plausible to me... even the 9mm uppers require much heavier buffers (like 2-3x heavier than standard). Does anyone know what the optimum buffer weight would be for .45ACP ?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:05:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
I already discussed this with the customer, and he is sending it to us for a free replacement.



Now that is Customer Service
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:46:54 AM EST
Dudes...

That's like not the way to make a CavArms AR15 pistol....
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:02:02 AM EST

That's like not the way to make a CavArms AR15 pistol....




Nope, Just get a Glock 21
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:45:05 AM EST
Is that a Glock upper ?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:49:00 AM EST
My only concern is the reduced reliability. It's great to offer a free replacement but I'd hate to depend on that when my life is on the line. I know that structural failures happen but the composition of that stock alone makes it more prone to failure than a conventional lower.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:57:12 AM EST
Damn!
Tell me what 45ACP ammo did that!
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